Military use of CAT III ILS

[Guest Ritalin IV]

F-22s aside, sounds like the new ILS only cost the AF about 20 to 40 lieutenants. At this rate, our approaches will rock but our snack bars could go un-stocked for a long time. Someone else will have to help me out with the conversion of lieutenants to $$$.

[HerkDerka]

HD's theorem of lieutenant spending:

The sum of lieutenants that an item or program costs is inversely proportional to the future utility of said item or program.

HD

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by Crog:

If memory serves, the C-141 and C-9 were CAT II. As far as I know, all the CAT III-capable are painted blue and white (OK, the C-40's are all white).....

Interestingly, airlines with CAT III capable aircraft generally don't certify every hull and crew (Delta used to be the exception; FedEx Burt?). It's a very expensive qualification to maintain, both in the training and currency arena, as well as the aircraft MX certification. It often doesn't make financial sense for the small percentages of access gained. Also, while you might be able to land 0-0, you still need to get to the gate. I'd like to see the Jepp for ETAR's low vis taxi, which would be the real measure of how much access this approach provides.

[pcola]

Originally posted by Steve Davies:

In my tiny head I had assumed that an ILS would be far safer and more preferable to a PAR, but it occured to me that if after all this time the DoD has only just got its first CAT III ILS up and running, then for all this time you guys out in the styx and the AOR must have been using a PAR instead on days and nights when the weather was crap but the mission had still to be accomplished. Hence the question about the PAR making ILS redundant.

ILS is always a better choice than PAR in the weather. I'm not sure about your flying background so you may already know this and I could be misinterpreting your post, but I think you may be confusing the Categories of ILS's.

You mentioned that since the USAF just got its first Cat III ILS, pilots must have been using PAR's. However, a PAR is no substitute for a Cat II or III ILS.

FYI, Cat I ILS mins are 200 Ft DH and 800M prevailing vis or 550 RVR. These are generally the same as a PAR.

Cat II ILS mins are as low as 100 Ft DH and 350 RVR.

Cat IIIa mins are as low as 0 DH and 200 RVR

Cat IIIb mins as low as 0 DH and 50 RVR

Cat IIIc mins as low as 0 DH and 0 RVR (meaning that the autopilot must be capable of landing and guiding the a/c to the terminal.)

To my knowledge, there is no PAR with mins less than a Cat I ILS, and Cat I ILS's are much more prevalant than PAR's. Hopefully this helps to answer your questions.

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by pcola:

To my knowledge, there is no PAR with mins less than a Cat I ILS, and Cat I ILS's are much more prevalant than PAR's. Hopefully this helps to answer your questions.

[Steve Davies]

Originally posted by pcola

You mentioned that since the USAF just got its first Cat III ILS, pilots must have been using PAR's. However, a PAR is no substitute for a Cat II or III ILS.

pcola

Thanks for the quick overview; it's very useful.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest KoolKat]

Of all the terminal appraoches I got, BIKF wasn't in a damn thing. Weird.

All the approaches can be accessed from the internet...even without the .mil computer.

I have the published appraoches into Kandahar...not sure what there is on Iraq.

Kinda freaky. Of course, considering those forms I just found "floating around" detailing the DV movements in the AOR, one would be surprised to know what someone could get there hands on if they cared.

Regardless of wether I found it...I still call BS. I'd be awefully surprised if any PAR went lower than the Cat I ILS. I'm not aware of any newer equipment/technology than the standard.

BENDY

[ 11. January 2007, 11:34: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by Bender:

Regardless of whether I found it...I still call BS. I'd be awefully surprised if any PAR went lower than the Cat I ILS. I'm not aware of any newer equipment/technology than the standard.

BENDY

OK, let's forget BIKF and use another USN field as a case study.

NAS Pensacola (KNPA)

ILS Z Rwy 7L (AL-736)

S-ILS 7L 223- 1/2 200 (200- 1/2)

PAR 7L 123- 1/4 100 (100- 1/4)

Don't call BS too soon...

Edit: Added link to the IAP

KNPA ILS/PAR Rwy 7L

Can't get to the overseas pubs here without way too much pain involved. The FAA site has all the US stuff, thus the P-cola example. However, the NGA site has removed all their pubs from the public site.

[ 12. January 2007, 06:39: Message edited by: Herk Driver ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Steve, think of it this way...

You can't see out of any windows in your car. You are driving your car 100mph toward a 20' wide gap in a concrete wall. You only have enough gas to make a couple attempts at this. If you run out of gas or slow down below 90 mph your car will explode.

You have a choice. You can let some guy watching you drive your car using a remote camera telling you to turn left or right over the radio in your car. You are depending on that person to get the "turn a little left, ok now a little right" part exactly correct. He is in control.

Now, imagine you can have some display on your dashboard where if you follow the needles you can drive through that gap every time, no problem, and you always know how far left or right of the centerline through the gap you are. No one is talking to you, you just center up the display and drive. You are in control.

Which technique would you use?

BL: PAR is fine as long as there is a functioning ILS backup to the same runway.

[Guest KoolKat]

Hey! PARs for everybody. Now if we could just figure out how to get within 1000 ft of that pesky centerline when we break out at 100' we're good to go!

Sir, can I have my BS flag back...I'll go finish mission planning now... :D

Try this... EDIT: Although, it seems to have significantly less materials they on my last vist, plus they all expire in approx. 5 days, except the GP which is good through Feb I believe.

EDIT #2: And if I dust off my reading comprehension skills, I'll notice that you already looked there.

Where's my coloring book for cryin' out loud. You know what, forget that too, it's Friday night, I need to go find something better to do then this. Peace.

BENDY

[ 12. January 2007, 07:06: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Herk Driver]

Bender,

Not trying to slam you. Sorry if it came across like that.

Rainman is 100% correct. ILS is the preferred method, but sometimes you may need that PAR especially if that is the only approach that you can "legally" fly. Would always use the ILS to back up the controller, if one is available. Also, having the Nav backup the approach with the AWADS radar is nice as well. In the case that I needed one for the Wx, the ILS was working just fine but was being called below mins and there weren't too many alternatives since I was landing on an island. In this case, the alternate was several hours away, a shorter runway and the weather there was deteriorating.

We chose the lesser of 2 evils.

[ 16. January 2007, 04:24: Message edited by: Herk Driver ]

[Guest KoolKat]

Roger.

60% of the time I feel like pretty hot shit and the other 40% I feel like a total dumbass.

I know you don't have to try to slam me...it just happens sometimes. ;)

PAR > ILS CAT 1. Roger.

You're PM explained the situation well enough as well...agreed, fun, but fun I don't need to have.

Of course, that kind of fun is ineviatable in this business. It will be had.

What's a AWADS radar...sounds nice.

BENDY

[ 16. January 2007, 06:06: Message edited by: Bender ]