UPT class standing/rank (MASS)

[Guest fosterbeer]

When in UPT, does a student know exactly where he or she is ranked as far as class standing, or is it usually a guess?

thanks

[Guest yogibehr555]

In my case a little over half way through T-37s our flight commander told us top 3rd, middle 3rd, or bottom 3rd. We never had a meeting with our flight commander in T-38s but I just looked at the AETC Form 1122 (Summary Performance Report) in my flight records and saw my class ranking for phase III.

[Guest fosterbeer]

Was there a large disparity between those three tiers, or was everyone fairly close to each other with tiny things (grades/rides?) making the difference? (for your class at least)

Thanks for the response..

[Guest yogibehr555]

There is definitely a large disparity between the top and bottom of the class. You generally know who is doing very well and who is sucking since checkride scores and busted are hot topics in the flight room. As far as the middle tier goes, it's harder to tell but I don't think track select results are often decided on one or two daily rides or an academic exam.

[Scooter14]

A lot has to do with commander's ranking, too. Don't be a jackass and be a good officer and teammate to your compadres, and you'll be fine here. Take it from a class SRO... Jackassery (like buffoonery, but on a much grander scale) will get you to the basement faster than anything.

Like Ryan was saying, the top guys will be evident and the bottom dwellers will be as well.

Where you stand should become self-evident. If it doesn't, you might be at the bottom.

In slight disagreement with Ryan, there will be a large group in the middle of the pack with mere tenths of percentage points between them. The difference between what you do want and what you don't want may be the difference between a Stan Test or an academic test pass or bust.

I've seen it happen. Happened to me at nav school. Twice. Everything worked out and I have had nothing but positives come out my career thus far (which is another topic altogether...be happy wherever you go). At the time, however, it really kind of sucked. The best you can do is the best that youcan do. If you don't do the best you can, you can only blame yourself.

[ 11 January 2004, 20:54: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Bergman]

We were told at the 1/2 way point in tweets, 1/2 way through T-1s, and the day before graduation (although the results of assignment night give you a pretty good clue before that).

In my experience, the top and bottom of our class were pretty well settled by performance. The middle was the area of contention, and I believe that's where the Flt/CC ranking had the most impact. There were people who got great assignments when their flying skills didn't justify it - but their good attitude and work ethic did.

The other intangible is 'group attitude'. As a class/flight, if you have a good work ethic and positive can-do attitude, the flight commander is going to be more willing to make trades and go to bat on your behalf. If you're a bunch of whiners that think everything should be handed to them, then you're at the mercy of AFPC (or perhaps your flt/cc will trade away your good assignments.) Our flt/cc made some great trades - getting 9 of 12 active duty one of their top 3 choices. It would have been only 4 or 5 of 12 if he hadn't done anything.

[Toro]

Having sat on both sides of this, I can give a little perspective from the instructors.

As Ryan said, your flight commander should give you a mid-mass rank where he ranks you as top, middle, or bottom third. I don't believe it's mandatory, though, because we skipped it several times just due to being so busy. On the final ranking, he should give you your actual position in the class (if not, it will go on your 1122 as Ryan said).

And like PAB and Bergman mentioned, the top and bottom are usually obvious with the middle being the difficult ones to decide. The rankings usually involve all the instructors in the flight and start with the easy choices - picking the top one or two, then picking the bottom one or two. On occassion, we'd argue for over an hour trying to rank order the last four or five guys. This is where your attittude and 'officership' comes into play. Neal and Bob may be running neck and neck until IP #1 says, "Yeah, well what about when Neal aced his formation checkride and didn't pass the info to any of his buds, and somebody hooked for the same EP." Wham, Neal goes to the bottom. Also, IPs are very aware of things you may not realize - I couldn't stand dudes who brown nosed us, then were dicks to their classmates. Straight to the bottom of the pile.

Also, we've ranked people in that middle portion based on what type of aircraft it would get them. If a guy was good enough to graduate, but we really didn't think he belonged in a fighter, we'd rank him so he'd get a bomber.

[Guest fosterbeer]

What put the top people in the top, and the bottom in the bottom? Were the top people just naturally good pilots? Did the bottom folks just have bad work ethics or attitudes?

Thanks for the replies, I'm guessing there is probably no straight answer for the above questions, just speculation. I'm just trying get a good handle on how things work at UPT.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Dan Foster:

What put the top people in the top, and the bottom in the bottom? Were the top people just naturally good pilots? Did the bottom folks just have bad work ethics or attitudes?

Because the highest rank scores come from daily and check rides, the people at the top were generally the best pilots and the people at the bottom were...not.

That being said, a $hit-hot pilot with a crappy attitude (negative or arrogant) can find himself knocked down from that top spot by flight commander ranking and thrashing for one of the middle spots. Conversely, I've seen guys who really weren't great sticks, but they made it up into the top half because they had great attitude and determination and/or they displayed lots of team attitude and helped out their classmates when they themselves may have been struggling.

[Baseops.Net]

Having also sat on both sides of this, let me give add to what Toro had to say.

-As a student, don't dwell too much or stress yourself out on this process - concentrate on what you have control over - your own performance. What I mean is stuff outside of the cockpit. It's all common sense, but to reiterate: have a good attitude- be positive no IPs are going to put up with a bad attitude or a whiner. Also, be a BIG team player - help out your flight, pass on the gouge, help the weaker guys, etc. Lastly, put out a BIG effort - never, ever, let it seem that you did not give over 100% whether it be for a test, flight, additional duty, snacko, whatever - what I mean is that perception is everything -- you do not want to be perceived as the guy that doesn't give a crap or that puts in minimal effort... I know this sounds trite, but it is dead on accurate.

I have seen the whole spectrum of "bad attitudes" as a student and IP -- complaining about being behind (i.e. not flying); whining about the leave policy; backstabbing classmates in order to beat them; disrespectful / unofficerlike; late for class/flights; the list goes on and on. Hope this proves helpful...

[iFlyTexans]

How big of an impact do your test scores in phase I have on your track select? It seems that your skills as a pilot determine what you will get for follow-on...is that a correct assumption? Thanks!

[Toro]

Originally posted by iFlyTexans:

How big of an impact do your test scores in phase I have on your track select?

Flying scores are more important than test scores. Somebody who has seen the layout more recently than me can give specific percentages, but it was something like 40% checkride, 30% daily ride, 20% commanders ranking, 10% test scores.

[Bergman]

Toro's percentages looked right to me. Don't forget that the 10% academics includes all of your EPQs (we took 18 in tweets and 16 in T-1s), so it's not ALL about tests. I will try to dig out my syllabus and see if it breaks down what percentage EPQs are of that 10% overall.

[Guest C17Heavy]

Dan,

Toro and Baseops have given you a great insight on the process. All great info! A lot more than I had when I was in UPT. Of course I'm guard so the process didn't affect me like it does active duty pilots. Having said that, there was less induced stress put on me while in UPT. I watched a couple of my active classmates stress themselves out by worrying about the mass rankings. I understand that your class ranking in the mass severely impacts the rest of your career, and that everyone wants to finish at the top. However, stressing over it will just drive you crazy. If you approach UPT with a good attitude, professional officership, superior teamwork, and a high willingness to take instruction, you will be at the top. Be the stud that all the IPs want to fly with!(that's how you get the all important high commander's ranking) If you are, you will be towards the top! Don't worry about the mass! I know that is allot easier said than done, but if you can somehow put it out of your mind (or at least in the back) you will be much happier and will perform better. Do your best in the areas you have direct control over (academics, EPQs, ground evals, etc..), chair fly your a$$ off, and go fly the jet!! Have fun and let the cards fall were they will. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!

[RangerMateo]

Anyone know how this voodoo grading system works, ie - what line items carry more weight, if they do? It doesn't really make a difference, I'll track however I track, but everyone seems to say something else. Most of what I've heard is that the checkrides count for more (40/25 split for the overall grade) and that the GK/EP line items are weighted more heavily on a line by line basis, but nobody seems to know the specifics...also whether it's your relation to the MIF that picks up points or the raw grade (ie - a G on a U MIF item is worth more than a G on a G MIF item) Just curious...thanks =)

Also, tried a search, but it turns out that searching for "MASS" is a bad idea...ha!

Edited June 4, 2008 by RangerMateo

[163 FS]

AETCI 36-2205 Check out attachment 5.

This is the pub that governs aircrew training. You won't need to reference it as a student, but some of the rules are only listed here.

As far as if stuff is weighted differently (EP, GK, SA, etc)...I don't know. That is what I was always told, but I never really cared to look it up. TIMS pukes out a number and that is what we used. However, I do remember looking at the points that TIMS gave for two students who both got a 2E on their checkride. One stud had more points (slightly) than the other. I guess that means that some stuff is weighted more heaily than others, but I don't think that it is significant.

I will add that the stan tests (EPQs), FC ranking and academics, while not a very large always played a huge part in deciding the track select assignments. For example, a class finished up about a week early and the FC sat down with all the IPs and went through FC rankings. One guy was #4 and one was #5. We all decided (the FC did anyway) that the rankings were accurate. After putting in the FC rankings, the #4 guy got the last T-38 slot and the #5 guy didn't get the -38. The MASS difference was something like .00069 points between the two. We decided to reverse the FC ranking on both just to see what happened and yes, TIMS said the other guy should get the -38. Point is, even though it might be a smaller percentage of the mass, don't blow it off. Do your best at everything you do (but this is something your Dad should have taught you a long time ago). I've seen many of these type situations (for -38s, T-44s and even the UH-1 and Toner.

I knew that being a FAIP would pay off someday!

EDIT: Just found this:

A5.1.5.1. Each maneuver has scores for unable, fair, good, and excellent. Critical maneuvers are

weighted more heavily. For example, landing is weighted more than aileron roll. Weighted grade

values for individual maneuvers are available in the maneuver grade files. Scores are based on the

first attempt of the maneuver. NOTE: A maneuver discontinued by a student exercising situational

awareness does not necessarily constitute a first attempt.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Tweet FAIP

[Guest thefranchise]

TOTAL MASS breakdown

FLYING : 70%

	Category Check Maneuver T-Score - 40%

			Midphase Contact (16%)

			Final Contact (28%)

			Instrument (28%)

			Formation (28%)

	Daily Performance 30%

			Flight Line Test T-Score (25%)

			Daily Maneuver T-Score (75%)


Academics T-Score 10%


Flight Commander Ranking T-Score 20%


Total 100% (70+10+20)

[brabus]

We were shown the exact thing Franchise posted back in T-6s prior to track. So that's the math you should go by, but like Tweet said, FC ranking can make a big difference, even though it's "only" 20%. If the FC ranks you high and your grades aren't in the shitter (which they're most likely not if you're ranked highly to begin with), then you'll probably get what you want. You can have good scores and a low FC ranking and you will probably not get what you want. I saw both situations when I went through UPT...the guys who worked hard, helped others, volunteered for stuff, etc. had a better relationship w/ the IPs and thusly were ranked higher. The FC will usually try to hook up the studs he saw working hard and helping others.

[ClearedHot]

In the old days the Flt CC ranking decided everything.

The first 6 guys in my class was separated by less that .01 of a point. We did not find out until later, but the Capt navigator in our class had served on a hard crew in BUFFs with the Flt CC for two years. The Flt CC moved the true #1 dude who had busted one ride in UPT down just enough in his rating to allow the Capt to finish #1, despite a 17 down grade "I" check bust.

The really sad thing, the dude who should have been #1 wanted a B-52 from day one...he lived BUFFs, he finished #2 and in the days of the banking system, there were no B-52's as he ended up picking 9th in the overall draft (five UPT bases and we picked 4th). He got a KC-10 which the #3 wanted, did his time then separated, it truly fvcked the entire class.

Perhaps that is why only 5 of 26 dudes in my UPT class are still in the USAF, including the Nav who should not have finished #1.

[brickhistory]

The Flt CC moved the true #1 dude who had busted one ride in UPT down just enough in his rating to allow the Capt to finish #1, despite a 17 down grade "I" check bust.

Unsat.

But then we're surprised when we see the same thing just on a bigger scale with the likes of Hornburg, et al, and the T-birds' contracting fiasco.

[brabus]

That's just a case of "shit happens." Some IPs grade harder/easier than others. One stud gets the hard check pilot while the other gets the easy check pilot (sts). Some fly an important ride on a perfect day while another has to deal w/ bad weather and a SOF wx recall (SA gone), etc. It's happened since day one of UPT's existence and should be accepted as part of the deal. Don't complain or use stuff like that as excuses; there's no such thing as one person getting "screwed" by stuff like this and another not. Everyone has to deal w/ this kind of stuff at points, so who cares, it's all fair in the end. The phrase, roll with the punches, is the best way to look at UPT.

[flyerpapa]

Dumb Assed Question:

How does this MASS mumbo-jumbo play out for Guard/Reserve UPT fighter folk. Because they already have an airframe, do they have to concern their selves with it, or just ‘pass’ and off to -38’s they go?

[brabus]

I've always heard guard/reserve guys have to be in the top 50% of their class in Phase II to continue to 38s. So yes, your MASS does matter (as long as what I've read/been told is still true). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest momann]

I've always heard guard/reserve guys have to be in the top 50% of their class in Phase II to continue to 38s. So yes, your MASS does matter (as long as what I've read/been told is still true). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

brabus, I think you're right.

Two guys from my guard F. W. got sent back because one could not stay ahead or with the T 38 and the other did not perform well (meet standards for -38 track) before track. He busted a few rides, great academics and was given a second chance but could not save himself. Both came back to the wing and found some heavy unit that took them.

Mo.

[Guest tonepilot86]

Hey, bringing back a real old post on here but I had a question relating to MASS, and this was all I could find. So my question is, does a student's performance in T-6's play a part in getting their final assignment from phase III? I was always told that phase III was a clean slate from phase II, but I've heard recent rumors of otherwise. Any insight?