Lifestyle of Helicopter Pilots

[AOF_ATC]

Thread Revival.

I've read through this thread and got a lot of great information. Something I didn't really find was, what if you want to stay in Hueys? Lets say you get Hueys out of Rucker. Is it fairly typical to do a tour or two in Hueys and then move to -60s? If someone really doesn't have an interest in switching, is it a career killer? How would staying in Hueys affect promotions?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

What's wrong with 20 years in MT and DC?

[HeloDude]

What's wrong with 20 years in MT and DC?

Nothing at all. I'm just willing to bet that with deployments for Huey guys becoming much more common, there will come a point where never deploying will start to look bad for promotions.

For better or for worse, here's how it is (from what I have seen as well as how older 53 guys have explained it to me): Since we don't deploy our Hueys, that by itself can be a career killer. If you never deploy, you'll have little operational experience besides flying around a missle base, doing an IP tour, and then flying around the flag pole again in DC. As far as the Huey Sq's go--most of the missle bases are filled with first assignment guys with only a few older guys filling posistions as CC, DO, ADO, OGV, etc.

Getting higher up posistions on the staff, etc are more difficult for straight huey guys because you don't have the operational experience to add to those posistions. Also, the majority of Huey commands are filled by 53/60 guys because as it was explained to me "Why put a straight Huey guy in a command position when he won't go any farther in his career, when you can put a 53/60 guy who needs command experience, and will then go on to work at the joint staff level, etc"

A lot of Huey guys are cool with just being a 20 year Major and never deploying. What bothers me the most are the Huey guys who bitch about not getting to do anything different or advance in their careers outside the Huey realm when a lot of these same guys are the ones dodging 365's to fly and train the Iraqis and Afghanis. You don't build much on you past flying experience if all you do is fly around missle bases after missle bases.

[MD]

Are the RQFs at the missile bases still getting a fair amount of civil SAR taskings?

[hardie9e]

Random Question, but I figured it may pertain. Has any fixed wing pilot (F-model stuff) ever transfered to helo? I know, crazy, but just wondering.

[60 driver]

Random Question, but I figured it may pertain. Has any fixed wing pilot (F-model stuff) ever transfered to helo? I know, crazy, but just wondering.

I did it from A-model stuff. I'm aware of at least 5 other guys who did it from A-, F- and B- model stuff, and one from C- model stuff.

All guard and reserve guys but I'm sure there are a few on AD as well. Crazy.

Edited February 7, 2009 by 60 driver

[usaf36031]

Threat revival for a quick question.

What are the deployments looking like for the '60s these days?

I'm tracking in a few days and still making up my mind.

[Guest JollyFlight21]

busy...

[busdriver]

you'll be gone a lot as a 60 guy.

[BADFNZ]

you'll be gone a lot as a 60 guy.

Could you elaborate at all? I'm not asking for deployment locations or anything, just what type of rotation you're on.

I'm in the same boat, tracking in 3 days, and I'm on the fence between Herks and Helos. Deployments aren't high on the list of deciding factors, but I'm just trying to get any current info that could help me out. If it helps, my Helo of choice would be -60s and my Herk of choice would be MCs.

[Guest JollyFlight21]

You're looking at the very realistic pace of 4 deployed, 4 home. Occasionally you'll buy your way out of a deployment to do an upgrade, SOS, etc, but by-and-large, you're looking at being gone at least 1/2-2/3 of every year. My guess would be that it's similar in the herc, but you'll have to ask them.

[donkey]

But you do get to hover!

[HeloDude]

My advice if you're at Rucker is this:

I you're not dead set on wanting a 60, don't ask for one. Go for the Osprey if that's where your heart is, if not, put down Hueys and hope you get one of your top locations. I would argue that Fairchild (now that Vandy is closed) is the best first assignment Huey base you can get--unless you're strictly going for hours where in that case I'd take one of the three missle bases.

The reason I say 'don't ask for a 60 if you're not sure' is because if you get one, that's it--you're a 60 pilot with very little chance of parole. And with the recent changes/discussions with the new administration, who knows what the hell is going to happen to CSAR in the near future. So take a Huey, learn as much as you can, build some air sense, log a ton of hours (push to fly as many NVG lines as possible), and after 2-3 years if you still want a 60, it will be there for you and you can then enter the community with some hours and SA. Right now AFPC is struggling to fill 60 slots with Huey guys who are at the end of their first assignment (most guys just don't want to do it)--unfortunately I think that the 60 community (with the help of AFPC) has screwed themselves over the last 10 years and now they're paying for it.

Now having said all of this and as I said earlier, if your heart truly wants to fly a 60 and do that mission, then by all means go for it and I hope you get it. I hear it's an awesome aircraft to fly and I know of a lot of good dudes in the community. But as the 60 guys on here have mentioned, you'll be gone A LOT. Choose wisely and good luck.

[busdriver]

Good points Helodude, big point on scamming for NVG time. A recent Huey re-tread in my squadron has close to 50% more hours than I do, with about a year less flying experience, but less than half my NVG time.

I'm curious how you think we've screwed ourselves, not that I disagree just curious what your take is.

[Guest JollyFlight21]

If I can offer an explanation based on watching the end of Pavelow: Both communities failed to realize exactly how many influential people think that the Air Force should be out of the helicopter business, and just how compelling other influential people are finding their arguments. The way to fight that is to maintain unique technological capabilities that justify your existence. (Missions can be transfered or made "joint", crews can be retrained, but if they're going to have to spend money to get what you've already got, that's what keeps your job safe). Unfortunately, -60s and -53s both let that roll get reversed to where they needed to spend lots of money to catch up. If someone is gunning for you, that's the kiss of death -- its all the excuse they need to can you.

To the Rucker guys, go with your gut. If you really want to fly -60s, don't worry about this CSAR-X business. Nobody knows exactly where its going to go. In the absolute worst case scenario, you retrain on something else in a few years. That's what happened to a lot of -53 guys, and it wasn't a big deal.

On that note, the Dustoff guys in Kandahar have added FLIR to their birds. We've complained too long about a mission that everyone in CSAR thinks is beneath them, and the Army has learned that with FLIR they don't need us. That doesn't take away from the tasking, it just means we sit while they fly missions.

[Champ Kind]

On that note, the Dustoff guys in Kandahar have added FLIR to their birds. We've complained too long about a mission that everyone in CSAR thinks is beneath them, and the Army has learned that with FLIR they don't need us. That doesn't take away from the tasking, it just means we sit while they fly missions.

That's a shame. Dustoff is a pretty noble mission. While it's not the CSAR mission that you guys train for, getting the opportunity to take wounded men off the battlefield to safety is nothing to complain about.

Maybe some of your co-workers should have read about Mike Novosel.

[60 driver]

We've complained too long about a mission that everyone in CSAR thinks is beneath them

Since you brought it up, maybe someone can explain the reasoning behind this attitude. I've seen it, but I don't get it. Our rental (AD) PJs on our last rotation were among the loudest complainers I've seen yet.

[Guest JollyFlight21]

I wish I could understand it to explain it to you. I've done a few of the medevac deployments, and a CSAR only deployment. Which one had crazier missions that tested us more? The medevac ones. Which ones did I fly 100 hours in each deployment? The medevac ones. In which one was I bored out of my mind because we waited around on alert for that CSAR event that may actually happen, but not soon (hopefully)? The CSAR only one.

Granted, there are exceptions to both situations, but by and large, we've done some pretty amazing things on the medevac side of the house. Reason being, the Army is much more willing to throw us to the dogs when they don't trust that their guys (not talking AH-64/OH-58 or anything 160th here)could have hacked it. Not taking away from their skills, but they didn't have FLIR, or the 4949's, or weather radar, so they couldn't do the same crap. We train and fly intentionally in the darkest of dark nights. They don't/didn't.

Those that have deployed on the medevac stuff seem to get it. Those that haven't think they're too good.

[usaf36031]

That's a shame. Dustoff is a pretty noble mission. While it's not the CSAR mission that you guys train for, getting the opportunity to take wounded men off the battlefield to safety is nothing to complain about.

Maybe some of your co-workers should have read about Mike Novosel.

This quote stuck out to me. A true example of service above self.

In 1963, Novosel was working as a commercial airline pilot when a deep sense of patriotism called him to return to active military duty. By then, he was 42 and the Air Force did not have space for any more officers in the upper ranks. It was then that Novosel made the decision to give up his rank of lieutenant colonel in the Air Force to join the Army and fly helicopters as a chief warrant officer with the elite Special Forces Aviation Section. He served his first tour in Vietnam flying medevac helicopters (Dustoff) with the 283rd Medical Detachment. His second tour in Vietnam was with the 82nd Medical Detachment. During that war, Novosel flew 2,543 missions and extracted 5,589 wounded personnel

[busdriver]

I don't get the "beneath" part, I do know some people are trying to get our deployment tempo down and the 800lb Gorilla in the middle of the room means the only additional tasking we're likely to be successful in dropping is Medevac. Which I agree sucks, as the only deployment I've been on where I would have stayed for another tour if asked was my Medevac trip.

[60 driver]

I wish I could understand it to explain it to you. I've done a few of the medevac deployments, and a CSAR only deployment. Which one had crazier missions that tested us more? The medevac ones. Which ones did I fly 100 hours in each deployment? The medevac ones. In which one was I bored out of my mind because we waited around on alert for that CSAR event that may actually happen, but not soon (hopefully)? The CSAR only one.

Granted, there are exceptions to both situations, but by and large, we've done some pretty amazing things on the medevac side of the house. Reason being, the Army is much more willing to throw us to the dogs when they don't trust that their guys (not talking AH-64/OH-58 or anything 160th here)could have hacked it. Not taking away from their skills, but they didn't have FLIR, or the 4949's, or weather radar, so they couldn't do the same crap. We train and fly intentionally in the darkest of dark nights. They don't/didn't.

Those that have deployed on the medevac stuff seem to get it. Those that haven't think they're too good.

I think a lot more people "get it" than don't, but what gets me is - if a CSAR kicks off while you're sitting on your ass, you go do the CSAR. If a CSAR kicks off while you're on a medevac - wait for it - you get diverted and go do the CSAR. So what is the problem with supporting the fight while you wait for the call for your hasn't-happened-yet-in-eight-years (OEF) primary mission?

I have noted that these same guys are usually pretty fired up to go do the direct action support stuff - guess what, that ain't CSAR either, but I guess it sounds more glamorous than medevac (?)

[stract]

or, a CSAR and a MEDEVAC roll down at the same time, and the Army takes the CSAR and we get the MEDEVAC (happened to us on this last deployment).

[60 driver]

or, a CSAR and a MEDEVAC roll down at the same time, and the Army takes the CSAR and we get the MEDEVAC (happened to us on this last deployment).

What are you calling a CSAR? If it's "Army helicopter goes down, crew recovered by Army assets" I'd reply that's business as usual for the Army. I also don't see a problem with the scenario you just mentioned as long as everyone is being utilized (key word) effectively.

Edited May 13, 2009 by 60 driver

[BADFNZ]

What's the interaction like between the AF and Army at Rucker?

[RescueRandy]

I can't speak to the "relationship" between 23rd FTS staff and the Rucker staff because, well... I'm still just a student. I can speak to life as a student here, on Rucker, among the Army. It's pretty much the same as my (only) AD experience at Vance. You mind your own business and do your thing. Occasionally you run into some guys who want to know what it's like to be in the Air Force. We fly in and amongst the Fort Rucker training areas so we're bouncing into and out-of all the same Remote Training areas that they are. Every now and again there's a time when we're in the cockpit cussing the Army's way of doing things, but I guarantee they're doing the same about the Air Force's. Fort Rucker is very officer heavy (and very very Warrant heavy) just like a UPT base. The only real enlisted presence is at the WOC school and (I think) they have some basic training here. However, overall, the people here are just as warm and welcoming as people at your local AFB. Hope that somewhat answers your question.