KC10 Extender vs. C17 Globemaster

[LJ Driver]

Originally posted by C21Cowboy:

EVERYONE is gone 200 days a year, at least in the heavy world.

[LJ Driver]

Originally posted by KIPP:

Also they expect you to fly these crazy DPs to GPS exactness. We are not allowed to use our GPS as the primary means of navigation in the terminal area. The C-17 guys were telling us they get violated all of the time due to how strict the tollerences are on the DPs. Damn Germans.

Dude, don't rip the Germans. I absolutely loved those guys, hands down the best controllers in Europe, maybe even better than most in the USA. Maybe it was because we were based there, but the German controllers never passed up a chance to bend over backwards to accomodate us in every way (sts). Yeah they expect you to fly precise approaches and departures, and the main reason is because noise is a HUGE issue in Germany. If you mess up a departure, usually ATC has to pay a fine, which is why people get violated so much when they hose it up. There are noise sensors installed all over the place around the airport and departure corridor. It is this way in Tel Aviv, Israel also, just to let everyone know.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by LJ Driver:

Dude, don't rip the Germans. I absolutely loved those guys, hands down the best controllers in Europe, maybe even better than most in the USA.

I always thought the Germans were complete assholes. We would be looking for an IFR pick-up from low altitude and they would blow us off. They would say things like "Say fuel remaining in minutes...AND DO NOT LIE!" and they would put us into holding for that exact amount of time. We had a 4-ship holding VFR at low altitude in a sucker hole and Frankfurt appch refused to give us an IFR clnc. After the third denial they said "So then, tell me what you intend to do now" to which the flght lead answered "Well, I guess we'll just hold over this village until we run out of fuel and then we'll all just punch out."

That got their attention and we got a clnc right away. WTFO?!

I personally thought the UK Air Traffic SERVICE guys were the best by far. They didn't see themselves as controllers, they were providing a service. They remembered that the RAF saved the entire country from speaking german. They would provide a weather let down to 100' AGL if you asked for it. I never took any crap for a route abort in the UK airspace. The Duetchers were never cool about it. Ever.

Losing the six A-10 squadrons in England was one of the worst things that has happened in the Air Force in the last 20 years. That was a good deal. Damn inefficient Soviet bastards.

I'll admit, I haven't flown in Duetchland in a long time. My info is dated so maybe the German gene pool has changed and they have become friendly and helpful...but I find that very hard to believe.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

I personally thought the UK Air Traffic SERVICE guys were the best by far.

Agreed - a very structured air route system, but once you got used to it, it was far better than the US system. Once you exited controlled airspace you could pretty much do whatever you wanted - fight BFM, go low fly. Just turn down your main radio and tell them you'll call them back in 10 minutes.

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

They would provide a weather let down to 100' AGL if you asked for it.

This changed a great deal after the two F-15Cs crashed in Scotland in (I believe) 2001.

My vote for absolute worst controllers is the French. I took 6-9 trips from England to locations southeast of France requiring transit of their airspace. Without fail, they would alter our flight routing and give us penalty vectors for no apparent reason. On an RTB from Spain, we flight planned through airspace that was not NOTAMed active. As we got near, they began to vector us around the airspace - 50 miles to the east - because aircraft had activated it last minute. We could hear the formation exiting the airspace for RTB. We had radar contact and said we would climb over them. Dissapproved. Finally, as I'm about to declare emergency fuel and turn north, they let us transit the eastern 5 miles of the airspace.

Without fail they would send up a Mirage to 'intercept us' (check about 40 degrees into him when he's 6-9 miles out, then return to course as soon as he alters his course - took them forever to catch up).

And by the way...their English is absolutely terrible.

[Gas Man]

I also think the French suck. They always try to vector us toward Switzerland, as we are not allowed to fly over it. Also their engrish is way bad. Even when you ask them to spell it, you can hardly understand them. I didn't think the German controllers were too bad, just the fact that they keep changing the DPs. They are changing often enough that we can't keep them in our pubs. Not a big deal, but just sort of an ass pain. Now if we could just teach people in Europe about this new invention. It's called deoderant! WTF. Do they not smell themselves. About enough to make you puke someimes.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Toro:

This changed a great deal after the two F-15Cs crashed in Scotland in (I believe) 2001.

I knew that would come up.

The C model guys were given an altitude that would've worked if they had stayed on course. They changed their heading and hit the ground.

The Brit controllers used to let you do whatever you want. They assumed you knew what you were doing

Originally posted by Toro:

My vote for absolute worst controllers is the French

The Frogs asked us to bring a jet to their Air Force academy airshow after Desert Storm. We held over the channel for 90 minutes because they wouldn't let us in and eventually went back to Alconbury. We called them and they were so sorry, please try again. We only had to hold for an hour the second time. They treated us like crap the whole time we were there.

They suck.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

LJ Driver....

Africa King, huh? We could use your ass back here and whip some of the tribe back into shape!!

Have fun at the Rock...

[LJ Driver]

Hey dude trust me, I will spend many more sleepless nights there in my next life, if I ever get out of AETC! I just hope it will be up to my high standard of five star elegance that I experienced at the Djibouti Sheraton!

[ 27. April 2005, 16:33: Message edited by: LJ Driver ]