Why T-38s for B-52 (BUFF)

[Guest sickels101]

I'm just curious if anyone knows the story (and not just the heresay) on why T-38s get assigned BUFFs instead of T-1s.

[163 FS]

Not sure why it went to T-1s and then back to T-38s, but I sure wish it would go back to the T-1 (i.e. I don't want a BUFF out of my FAIP tour).

[Guest Hoser]

Little background: I started UPT in Dec 97 (Class 99-03) and for the FY98 classes, the B-1 and B-52 were dropped from the T-38 track. For the 99 FY, they were moved to the T-1 track.

When I returned for my T-38 FAIP tour, I was told that the bombers had been moved to the T-1 track due to the fact that those airplanes are crew aircraft, and the T-38 syllabus teaches single seat mentality. The bomber FTU's wanted students that had the crew / CRM training.

After a year or two of that, the bomber communities started complaining that their students were having difficulty adapting to the high speeds (the B-1 in particular), especially at low level, but only the B-1 was moved to the T-38 track, while the B-52 remained in the T-1 track. Another year of that, and the B-52 was also returned to the T-38 track.

During the time that the B-52 was still in the T-1 track, and Intro to Bomber Fundamentals (IBF) syllabus was born. Students who got the B-52 out of T-1's would then walk across the street to the T-38 squadron at the UPT base and go thru the IBF course, which was a 6-9 ride course, that included a few single ship rides, a few 2 ship form rides, and a few low levels.

In the end, I'm sure it came down to $$$$$.

Hoser

[Guest rotorhead]

Capacity is a huge card in this game.

Back when there were 800 or so UPT annual production, and there was more lattitude in which pipes produced which flavor grads. When the Pentagon folks decided that we had to have more than 1100 grads to win the pilot numbers war, that lattitude vanished. Every Phase III aircraft was taxed to the limit. T-1 could handle w, T-38 x, T-44 y, and UH-1 z. The Phase II beans had to be dispersed according to capacity...maybe T-1 is a good choice for bomber folks, but capacity may not allow it.

Also, you have to have some type of crew aircraft as a destination from the T-38 track...Sheppard (and SUPT bases) will always have T-38 students that should not go to a fighter...they need alternatives. Sometimes SPS calls AFPC and complains that there were too many bombers in the drop (like 2) and other times they ask for more (because of more students who should not fly fighters).

Also, having other communities from the 38 track allows FAIPs and SAIPs/TAIPs in the 38 be drawn back from communities other than fighters (to lessen the "whitejet payback" burden from fighters.

The helicopter family has had the most flexing pipeline. Some of us did the entire UPT year in helos (TH-55/UH-1)...some did T-37/T-1s, some did T-37/T-38s, now all do T-6(37) then H-1s.

[hindsight2020]

**I say the following as opinion not based on any operational experience, as my flying experience is exclusively civilian, and I wait to undertake SUPT.**

I guess I missed the memo, but what is so bad about the BUFF? I've picked up on the assertion that by having bombers as drops on the -38 track, the commanders and IPs would have an avenue to shelter the "slower" -38 grads from "killing themselves" in a single seater. However short-sighted, perhaps relative, I may consider that assertion to be, I understand what they are trying to get to, and it would and does speak truth about certain pilots, as no system is able to effectively rack and stack people's potential perfectly.

Personally, I am looking forward to tracking -38s as a -52 select. Now granted, I don't have half the pressures that an AD selectee would have in having to maximize their chances of obtaining their preferred airframe, but to suggest that a bomber assignment (and a BUFF one, which seems to be the common usage around here) would be a pigeon-hole or dead-end assignment for a -38 grad is just a feeble contention at best. Several of the senior pilots at my sponsoring squadron have very respectable single-seater experience; crossflow made possible in part to, you guessed it, a -38 background. I look at it as a great asset, and once again I am thrilled to get the opportunity to track Talons (and have a blast!) while having an open door of flexibility if the leadership would ever need me in a single-seater capacity at any point in time.

On the flip side, and in giving credit to the -38 tracking bubbas who are specifically interested in pursuing Viper, Eagle and Hog assignments, the suggestion some on the TONE side make that one would be ill-prepared by default to tackle the task of flying a bomber on account of it having two seats, and one not having tracked T-1, also strikes me as a little feeble. I understand the role the T-1 track plays in the training system, but to suggest that Talon trained pilots are so one-dimensional as to be crassly unable to tackle the particulars of a crew airframe is a little bit of a stretch.

I guess I look at my future airframe as full of opportunity and not a pigeon-hole assignment. Having said that I do understand the apprehension of having drops other than F-x's on the part of folks like TweetFAIP, that are in the thick of things regarding variablity of assignments. That's part of the reason why I side with the suggestion made by Bozz in a previous thread about bringing back the old all-Talon system. That is of course just wishful thinking , and not something that is going to happen. But I rather have that system and have people prove themselves rather than perpetually stigmatizing the -52. That said, I don't think it [the BUFF stigma] is that big of a deal, at the end of the day you either hack it or you don't. :D

Tailwinds folks.

EDIT: I didn't see rotorhead's post on the refresh, but I totally agree. Particularly about having diversity among the -38 IPs, all while lessening the "whitejet" burden. I was thinking of precisely that case as examples where having tracked -38s as a bomber guy does prove potentially valuable to the Force in the long run.

[ 22. January 2006, 01:34: Message edited by: MDINC ]

[Guest Hoser]

MDINC,

Yes, the T-38 side does use the B-52/B-1 as a 'seasoning' platform for some weak swimmers that aren't quite ready for single seat, but with a little more care and feeding, will probably be strong swimmers.

Here's my opinion from what I saw during my FAIP days. The reason guys in the T-38 track didn't like the bombers is becuase they really wanted to fly an Eagle/Hog/Viper and to get a bomber was a let down (yes I know that everyone love whatever plane they eventually get). From the T-1 side, I'm sure there are dudes that really wanted T-38/Fighters but due to their T-37 standing, tracked T-1. For those guys to know have the opportunity to fly something with an offensive capability, they are happier than a pig in sh!t.

Hoser

[Flare]

Originally posted by rotorhead:

Also, having other communities from the 38 track allows FAIPs and SAIPs/TAIPs in the 38 be drawn back from communities other than fighters (to lessen the "whitejet payback" burden from fighters.

Except they won't let anyone other than fighters or FAIPs fly the T-38, so that really doesn't matter. Bomber guys usually come back and fly the T-6/T-37.

[ 22. January 2006, 08:11: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[Guest f16wolf]

ENJJPT IP,

What you just said is not true. When I left CBM there were just as many bomber guys as there were fighter guys in the 38.

[Guest Dirt Beater]

True at Sheppard.

[Guest CoupPawn]

Back to the original question, I have heard some speculation referring to preparing bombers/fighters for the "ACC mentality". Is there any truth to this?

[Bergman]

Originally posted by CoupPawn:

Back to the original question, I have heard some speculation referring to preparing bombers/fighters for the "ACC mentality". Is there any truth to this?

Possibly. I guess that means the T-1 guys who go to ACC platforms (RC-135, E-8, E-3) are getting screwed.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

Except they won't let anyone other than fighters or FAIPs fly the T-38, so that really doesn't matter. Bomber guys usually come back and fly the T-6/T-37.

I think the general rule is that you have to have flown the plane in order to come back and teach in it. We had some B-52 guys teaching while I was at Columbus. Hell, we even had a guy that had flown C-141 and a dude that had flown AWACS, but they had all flown the T-38 for their Phase III aircraft.

Hoser

[Skitzo]

My .02

The Facts:

--Graduated SUPT and probably should have gotten a bomber out of -38s (after getting all the info and taking a hard look at my gradebook/relative performane).

--Went to IFF for A-10's washed out for various reasons although the training report says basically I suck at flying. Honestly can say though, it was a combination of things.

--Got a waiver to the FEB approved through 19AF and now awaiting orders to either the B-52 or B-1

--Pre assignment night: Had the attitude that going bombers would be less than desirable due to the fact from day one in Phase III we are told that we are being trained to be single seat fighter pilots. Plus I had my own desire from childhood to fly fighters.

--Post IFF washout: I'm excited as can be to be remaining in a business where I can fly in an ac that will drop bombs. Especially considering the stigma of washing out and the less than stellar choice of airframes available to an IFF washout.

--In summation: It's always going to be less than desirable to get a bomber out of SUPT. No one is going to cheer for a soon to be graduate the same if it is a bomber vice a fighter (unless it's a B-2)

It's a matter of perspective, -38 guys are spoiled that the worst assignment (in their perspective) is an assignment that a lot of T-1 guys would kill for.

There will always be a need for bombers for 38 grads because the track select process is not perfect. That being said I'm most certainly going to try to sandbag some flights on the T-1 side of the house to learn as much as I can about the crew concept and how to fly as a team.

If the previous T-1 bomber tracks included intro to bombing fundamentals I must assume that the current T-1 syllabus has a lack of tactical lessons, I have no idea what those are but why would there be a need to put a T-1 grad through 6-9 sorties for IBF when there isn't a need to put a T-38 grad through 6-9 flights in a T-1 to introduce him/her to the "crew concept?"

Sounds like there is a multitude of ways to skin a cat and produce an effective bomber pilot, it's probably more of a money issue than anything else.

Anyways, my whole experience sure as hell has given me a better perspective on how lucky we all are to fight and fly for a living. I've been on the ground since Nov and I'm dying to slip the surly bonds again.

[LJ Driver]

Originally posted by ktulu34535:

It's a matter of perspective, -38 guys are spoiled that the worst assignment (in their perspective) is an assignment that a lot of T-1 guys would kill for.

I recommend you speak of things you know something about, and I am guessing that you don't know much about the assignments T-1 guys would kill for. I chose T-1's, so did most of the other top guys in my class, and we all got counseled for it by the OG. Much to the chagrin and disappointment of many uninformed T-38 guys like yourself, not every pilot in the AF wants to fly T-38's, fighters, or bombers...

[Guest croftfam]

Originally posted by LJ Driver:

] I chose T-1's, so did most of the other top guys in my class, and we all got counseled for it by the OG. Much to the chagrin and disappointment of many uninformed T-38 guys like yourself, not every pilot in the AF wants to fly T-38's, fighters, or bombers...

Yeah, it's funny how that works. OG, SQ, DO, and even ADO's try to talk you out of choosing anything but a fighter if given the chance. I had to fight to get a helo.

[Guest SnakeT38]

I'll tell you EXACTLY why this happens. When I came to Vance in 97 the Buff was in the T-38 track got moved and came back.

We had MORE THAN A FEW Captains going through UPT back then, most were very good, some were terrible and one that I was involved with ended up in Air Force Times when he washed out and was wondering why he couldn't be sent to the T-1 versus going back to previous, non-flying career field.

IFF was washing some of these Captains out like crazy and it WAS OBVIOUS that a CREW AIRPLANE needed to be available in the T-38 track to accomodate guys that due to their rank could not be FAIPED at that time and HAD NO BUSINESS flying by themselves or with one other person that didn't wear the same kind of wings they did.

I saw in several classes where the class would have 5 Captains and 2 or 3 Lt's. The worst case was when ALL the Lt's finished higher than ANY of the Capt's. The Capt's ALL got a fighter and 2 washed out of IFF and were sent to a heavy.

1 Lt got what he wanted and the other 2, were FAIPED. A complete BS deal for them.

[Guest thefranchise]

Originally posted by LJ Driver:

I recommend you speak of things you know something about, and I am guessing that you don't know much about the assignments T-1 guys would kill for. I chose T-1's, so did most of the other top guys in my class, and we all got counseled for it by the OG. Much to the chagrin and disappointment of many uninformed T-38 guys like yourself, not every pilot in the AF wants to fly T-38's, fighters, or bombers...

sadly when guys have the T38 grades and get rejected for 38's it makes you wonder wtf is up with that the the AF to pigeon hole pilots with little to no chance of an active duty x-over. Spend over a million bucks to wear the same wings yet leave no ability to x-flow doesnt make sense.

[ASUPilot]

Originally posted by thefranchise:

sadly when guys have the T38 grades and get rejected for 38's it makes you wonder wtf is up with that the the AF to pigeon hole pilots with little to no chance of an active duty x-over. Spend over a million bucks to wear the same wings yet leave no ability to x-flow doesnt make sense.

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by ASUPilot:

After four years in the Air Force I've certainly learned two things...one, no one cares about anyone but themselves

I've heard otherwise about the AD Herk community..... I'm gambling that those I've heard from aren't full of crap.

[ASUPilot]

My roommate from Dyess is Herk driver...yeah, he didn't complain much. He and I live in two different worlds though. AD ACC is...wierd.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Don't worry guys, the airlines are the same way.

[Guest lsuspb]

Not to spread AETC rumors, but...this summer when I was at PIT (fun was had by all), the word on the street was that in the near future BUFFs would come from both tracks. Allowing T-1 studs with the CRM experience and the not-quite-single-seater type 38 studs to track BUFFs. B-1s and B-2s still dropping exclusively to the 38 track. Don't know how much truth is behind it.

[ASUPilot]

Believe it or not, not all Bone drivers are dudes who were "last" in their respective T-38 classes. As everyone knows, timing is everything. And beleive this or not, I can think of four younger AC's in my squadron who chose the Bone #1 out of T-38s.

Also, we have quite a few dudes who either washed out of IFF or fighter FTU. In my opinion the talent has been rather good. Are there a couple of idiots, of course, but that's anywhere. Not to get into a pissing match with anyone here, but I think history would support that when track select comes, usually about 25 studs plus or minus, 5 T-38s drop. Simple math suggests 20%. Now does that make every T-38 pilot better than every T-1 pilot...? Absolutely not. But even the "last" T-38 guy is pretty good.

[Guest sickels101]

I concur with that. Bomber guys get a bad rap from the "mentality" of the T-38 philosophy. And for those of you who think a BUFF is either to fly, please join us on an A/R sortie.

[KennyB]

Originally posted by ASUPilot:

Now does that make every T-38 pilot better than every T-1 pilot...?

Of course they are!! At least that's what my jaded former T-38 FAIPs told me every day in T-6s. I'm such a disappointment to those guys. Everybody knows only real men get T-38s.

It's very similiar logic to the USAFA vs. ROTC argument.

Theoretically if you were a USAFA grad AND a T-38 pilot... you'd be untouchable.