Height issues

[Guest M1dt0wn3]

Hey guys, long time viewer, first time poster. I am a pretty small guy around 5'3", and I'm just worried this will affect me when I go for a pilot slot. I'm about to be enrolled in ROTC so I know a have a couple years, but I really don't think I'm going to grow that much b/t now and then. I am just curious if any of you know anyone this short and if they have had any problems. Thanks guys

[163 FS]

3. Height:

a. Minimum height is 64 inches (5'4")

b. Maximum height is 77 inches (6'5")

c. Sitting height must be between 34-40 inches from the base of the spine

This is from a NON air force website, however the numbers do look familiar to me back when I did the Brooks thing.

Hope this helps.

[JS]

There are waivers if you can prove you can reach the controls and can fly your respective aircraft safely.

[Guest Mary G]

Those numbers are right. When you go to Brooks they'll do some extra measurements on you and get you a waiver. They put all that into the computer and it prints out this sheet that says what you can fly without a waiver, what you can fly with the waiver, and what you can't fly, etc. You'll most likely be limited on what you can fly - I am and I'm a half inch taller than you. Good luck!

[Guest dumaisj]

Here's a clarification:

Current height standards for flight status are: 1) standing height no less than 64 inches or greater than 77 inches; 2) sitting height no less than 34 inches and no greater than 40 inches for FCI, no less than 33 inches and no greater than 40 inches for FCIA and Initial FCII for flight surgeons. There are no sitting height standards for FCIII (AFI 48-123, Attach 6.29).

[Guest Birdie]

Apparently my sitting height is less than 34 inches, but greater than 33 inches. Is this waiverable for pilot or do I need to grow ~inch in the next two years? I am not too worried because I am sure there is some way around this, right?

Or, if you could just tell me how to look up if it is waiverable or not that would be great.

[Guest F16PilotMD]

I have no experience with this waiver. I've heard about it going either way.

CONDITION: SHORT STATURE

I. Overview. Current height standards for flight status are: 1) standing height no less than 64 inches or greater than 77 inches; 2) sitting height no less than 34 inches and no greater than 40 inches for FCI, no less than 33 inches and no greater than 40 inches for FCIA and Initial FCII for flight surgeons. There are no sitting height standards for FCIII (AFI 48-123, Attach 6.29).

Short stature is not a health problem unless associated with an endocrine disorder. In most cases, it is not even an occupational hazard. However, many cockpit environments are currently ill-suited, and possibly even dangerous, for individuals below 64 inches or above 77 inches in height. This issue has emerged as an area of concern primarily as the result of the increasing number of female aviators and their recent introduction into high performance aircraft. Previous cockpit design was based on accommodating the 5th through 95th percentile anthropometric dimensions of caucasian male pilots. This range currently excludes many females and some males from particular ethnic backgrounds. Ongoing research is focusing on cockpit-specific anthropometric dimensions necessary for flight safety and potential cockpit modifications for future aircraft.

II. Aeromedical Concerns. The issues are more complex than height alone. Short stature is usually associated with a lower body weight. Weight is considered the most critical parameter in ejection seat safety due to its effect on acceleration of the system. Shorter individuals may be at increased risk for spinal injuries from ejection. Optimizing the field of vision often involves upward seat adjustment which in turn may interfere with arm reach for controls and/or leg reach for rudder control. Proper fit of shoulder harnesses for adequate seat retention and adequate strength to operate ejection and emergency releases are also critical issues.

III. Information Required for Waiver Submission. Currently, individuals outside the height standards for either standing or sitting height are not eligible for FCI/IA waiver. There are some exceptions in the Air National Guard when individuals are targeted for training in specific aircraft. Individuals may be eligible for FCII and III waivers depending on their duty position and weapon system assigned. Waiver requests should be submitted with standing and sitting height annotated. If appropriate, a cockpit-specific evaluation for leg and arm reach, field of vision, etc. by a flight surgeon and instructor pilot should be included in the waiver packet. Evaluation at the Aeromedical Consult Service is not required.

IV. Waiver Considerations. As research data on cockpit-specific anthropometrics become available, waivers may be granted on the basis of a panel of individual measurements. Most personnel currently granted FCII waivers for short stature are flight surgeons. Many individuals granted FCIII waivers are medical personnel, but waivers have been granted to other personnel as well. Refer to AFI 48-123, Attach 15 for designated waiver authorities for different flying classes.

[Guest el_kin]

I'm in the AFROTC program. My question is about height waivers.

I'm 5'3 1/2 inches tall. I'm just .5 of an inche from the required

height. Is there any waiver for this. Thank You

[Guest doctidy]

When you go to Brooks for your physical, they will re-do all the measurements. If you are out of limits, there's a whole process that you will go thru. This is a Line of the AF requirement. They decide on too short/too tall. They do waive it.

[latidah]

Yes, being under the min height requirements can be waived (I have a waiver for both standing height and sitting height under mins). If you don't do your initial IFC I physical @ Brooks, be sure the medical group that does your physical gets all the required anthro measurements at that time (there are about 6-7 additional measurements, e.g. arm span). There is a matrix out that specifies requirements for each cockpit. I couldn't track fighter/bomber due to not being able to meet the matrix for the T-38 (even after a qualitying fit test in the actual cockpit). No biggie - I was going heavies anyways.

[Guest doctidy]

There is only one set of measurements that count...its Brooks. If you qualify at a base and Brooks says you are short, Brooks wins.

[latidah]

Rage - true. Based on the matrix completed prior to MFS @ Brooks (did my IFC I physical at my home station), I was qualified to fly all the heavy a/c. After MFS, my waiver now reads that I can't fly C-17s. That 1/50th of an inch difference is really important....

Anyways, having the measurements ahead of MFS is beneficial, if only to know whether or not you would be disqulified from any aircraft. Additionally, having an existing waiver from AETC/SG based on anthro measurements on your IFC I physical can expedite the (re-waiver) process when you get re-measured at Brooks.

[Guest SML]

Just wanted to add some info...I just went through a whole battle about this. Like the others said...they will take your anthro measurements at Brooks...then they will give it to your waiver authority...who will spit out a bubble sheet color coded with what you can fly...if your 1/2 inch height is the only issue you have...you should be fine...if you have reach (arm or leg) issues...that is where you could have problems...on your sheet...planes that return red are no go....yellow - you will need cockpit checks..and green are good to go. Let me know if you have anymore questions...I wouldn't sweat it though until you actually go to Brooks...

[Guest PilotKD]

I can tell you a thing or two about height waivers, since I'm on one.

I went the off-the-street OTS route and did my FCI physical as a civilian while going through the application process for a pilot slot. During my FCI, the measured me 64.5" standing. Shoes off, feet together, up against a tape measure on the wall. I forget what I measured sitting, but it was good enough to pass.

After OTS, I went to Brooks and measured up 63.7" standing. Shoes off, feet apart, away from the wall using their super-duper-body-measuring-device. They measured me twice, but unfortunately I was not able to magically gain .3". I passed everything else that day (sitting height included), but was DQ'd for .3". To be honest, I really wasn't worried about my height going into Brooks. It was literally the last thing on my mind. I was worried about them finding a heart or vision problem. I never imagined that my height would vary almost a full inch from what they had measured me before in the FCI. I always knew I was *around* 64" and when I measured 64.5, I figured I was good to go. Obviously, the individual who measured me during my FCI didn't do such an accurate job.

Because I failed the height requirements, they took additional measurements on me (reach length, but to knee length, etc...). This had given me some hope because I figured; why would they take additional measurements if they were DQ'ing me? However, at the end of the day, I got the walk-o-shame to the office for the, "I'm sorry, but you're going to have to go to the MPF tomorrow to pick another job in the Air Force." spiel.

The staff at Brooks told me there was no such thing as a "height waiver" because it is not a medical condition. They said I would have to get an "Exception to Policy", which at the time had to go all the way up to the Chief of Staff for approval and could take up to a year to be approved. In the meantime, they wanted me to reclassify and ship off to a new base somewhere while I worked the issue.

So there I was... faced with having to reclassify to a new career field so I could start working up through a chain of command that most likely wouldn't have given two poops about me and my flying career.

What did I do? Long story short... I raised the BS flag and basically refused to reclassify. I had spent the past 10 years of my life flying airplanes, left a civilian flying job to go to OTS and I wasn't going to give in and let them take the opportunity to go to UPT away from me because someone couldn't read a damn tape measure. I was furious. :mad: This was something that could have been avoided. Things got a tad hot that day, but I ended up being able to proceed to my UPT base and spent 6 months as a casual Lt while I worked the waiver. It was a long process and was an emotional roller coaster, but thanks to a kickass commander and the help from the flight medicine staff at the base, I was granted a cockpit fit check and subsequent waiver to fly T-1's. Overall, not a process I would want to go through again, although would if I had to.

It is my understanding, that due to this very thing getting more and more common (especially with more and more women getting UPT slots), they have streamlined the process. I hope for their sake they have.

[Guest doctidy]

How long ago was this? Every aircraft has been measured. We've mapped out the flying track for fighters and heavies. Have who makes it w/o problem, who is borderline, and who can't get to the switches no matter how hard they try.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by Rage_:P:

How long ago was this? Every aircraft has been measured. We've mapped out the flying track for fighters and heavies. Have who makes it w/o problem, who is borderline, and who can't get to the switches no matter how hard they try.

This was March of '03. Like I said, the staff at Brooks was absolutely no help with this issue when I was there. I spent an hour in the office talking to the MSgt, practically pleading with him to give me a waiver, but I was sent walking to the MPF to reclassify. He made it sound like it was going to be virtually impossible to get back into UPT and told me to plan on being at Brooks for 2-3 weeks during the reclassification process. Meanwhile, I had about 4 days worth of cloths and my car was 1,200 miles away sitting in an airport parking lot with the rest of my stuff in it. Not one of the best days of my life to say the least and definitely one I won't forget.

Something else that I found strange was that they T-1 tracked me from the get go. They didn't even offer a T-38 fit check. I just found it strange that if I had been .3" taller standing, I would have walked out of there with flying colors, went to UPT and had the opportunity to track to anything in our inventory. I would have most likely picked T-1's anyway, but that has always ticked me off a bit.

After everything was said and done, I got the waiver in June.

[ 27. April 2006, 17:16: Message edited by: PilotKD ]

[latidah]

Rage - back in in the 1998/99 time frame, AETC/SG stopped approving medical waivers for being under minimum height. Said it was a line/safety issue, not a medical one. That's when the exception to policy thing came about. I went through that process (which is very convoluted, and no one really knew anything about who needed to see the request - i.e. SG/SE/DO - who knows).

Had the opportunity to travel to Columbus with one of our flight surgeons back in 2001 and get fit-checked in the T-37/38/1. Luckily, the MDG/CC @ CBM at the time was able to procure the forms for the fit check (great guy - went above and beyond for us).

Long story short, after my package was ping-ponged back and forth between the CSAF office and MAJCOM, it was determined that waiver authority would be back in the hands of SG. AETC/SG began granting waivers again in the summer of 2003. It was at this time that the "bubble sheet" was getting refined, so the process really wasn't streamlined.

For anyone else going through this process, don't give up. Might take a little longer than some waivers, as I think the safety office @ AETC still needs to review the waiver request based on your fit check/bubble sheet.

[Guest el_kin]

PilotKD are you saying I should go speak to my Detachment Commander?

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by el_kin:

PilotKD are you saying I should go speak to my Detachment Commander?

Yes, I would. If you have any doubts that you will pass the height requirements, I would start looking into it now. Having someone to start pulling the strings now that knows you, ie: your Detachment Commander, will make things easier. Once you're commissioned and go to Brooks, you're pretty much on your own (or at least that's the way I felt). It's been a while since I was there and it seems as though this process has been streamlined, so things may be fine for you. However, if you haven't learned it already, you will sooner or later, and that is: "Needs of the Air Force". You are a number and they've got plenty of people to take your pilot slot if you don't make the height requirement. Unfortunately, this is the reality of it all. It's easier to send you walking than it is to start a waiver process for you (noone likes a paperwork trail). I'm not trying to scare you, but just telling you to be prepared for a possible "battle".

From what Rage says, they've got all the cockpits measured out and should know exactly what you can fly. You may not be able to fighter track (T-38's). Most of the people I know on height waivers were T-1 tracked. Be prepared for this since it may be devastating news for someone that has dreamed about flying fighters his whole life. However, there should be no reason why you should be pulled out of UPT altogether if there's a few airframes you can track to.

I have my bubble sheet right in front of me (I save everything) and I was green for the T-6, passed the fit check for the T-1 and was green for the KC-10, KC-135, C-5, and C-21 (and these were what my waiver was signed for). I was marginal on the C-17 and C-141 and would require a fit check to go to one of those. On the fighter side, I was red on the T-38, A-10 and B-52 (which means a no-go) and marginal for the B-1, B-2, F-22, F-15, and F-16. Since I was red on the T-38, there was no way to get to all the marginal ones anyway. When you get into ejection seat aircraft, short stature (and weight) becomes a problem because of the chances of injury in the event of an ejection from flailing limbs and such. The T-38's archaic seat is said to be voilent on body and not good for shorter people (this is just what I've heard). Funny enough, when we were ready to pick assignments at the end of the T-1 program, my flight commander knew nothing about me being on a height waiver (I PCS'd between phase II and III). C-17's were more towards the end of my list, but I would be willing to bet I could have landed a C-17 assignment without anyone ever seeing that I technically needed a fit check in the aircraft to fly it. Unless AFPC keeps that sort of stuff in their system down there when they give out assignments, but I doubt it.

FWIW, my FCI was actually done at Patrick AFB. I had thought they were trying to send ROTC cadets to Brooks for both the FCI and MFS at the same time before they commissioned. Are they not doing this?

[ 30. April 2006, 19:07: Message edited by: PilotKD ]

[Guest cyborg939]

What is the maximum height allowable?

[Guest doctidy]

no more than 77 inches w/o a waiver

[Guest P27:17]

...40 inches for sitting and 27 inches for buttocks to knee measurements...if any one is interested.

PilotKD...sorry to hear about your ordeal. "Anthropometrics" as we know it today has only been around since 2001 and since you've been through it there have been some improvements in the process. The 2 acceptable sources for measurements are Brooks and the AFA. The measurements accomplished at Brooks (AFROTC cadets, MFS only evals, and funded requests from the field) typically cover the big three, standing, sitting, and BTK. If an applicant is above or below the standard then additional measurements are taken and the results are forwarded to both AETC/DOF (Line) and AETC/SGPA (medics) for certification. The bubble sheet mentioned is a product of DOF and they determine which aircraft, if any, an applicant can fly. For the AD MFS only folks AFPC, not Brooks, makes the decision of holding someone in place or letting them move on while awaiting the decision. AETC/SGPA waits for the DOF recommendation before making the final certification...for the applicant, this can be an extremely slow and painful process.

[Guest b2thep]

I went to MFS at Brooks earlier this year and just recieved word that I am disqualified from my UPT slot because of my sitting height. I was 1/2" too short. They submitted me for a waiver and that came back a week from submission, denied. Is there a way to have the waiver resubmitted, get remeasured, or get measured in cockpits to reconsider the decision of disqualifing me? I will do anything necessary to hold onto my pilot slot, any suggestions?

[Guest P27:17]

You face a difficult challenge...a "1/2 inch" is a lot in the scheme of things. There needs to be a reason for reconsideration other than not being happy with the decision. Can you prove they measured you incorrectly? Can you get a flight surgeon/detachment commander to be an advocate for ETP initiation? Once you are "red stamped" (DQ'd) it's an up hill battle and very difficult to get overturned.

Good luck

[Guest b2thep]

I went to a flight surgeon who had me remeasured to find that I was well within the limitations. He contacted AETC only to have them say that they won't change my situation because Brooks is more accurate and that my reach was also a factor and they don't think that I could've been measured incorrectly in Texas. They won't even take a waiver into consideration or try to have me fitted in cockpits. I have a friend that is about an inch shorter than me that is currently flying in the Air Force. Can anyone offer insight in to why they aren't willing to reevaluate my situation or any suggestions as to where I go from here?