Buying a plane

[Guest JoeMama]

I know this isn't the perfect forum for this question, but I figure a lot of you can help.

I'm trying to buy an RV-8 to use for fun flying as well as cross country flying. The basic VFR plane is affordable (at least I'm trying to convince my wife that it is).

The problem is if I add the IFR package, it's too expensive.

I'm going to be using the plane for cross country flying that eventually will be LONG cross country flying (Montana to Louisiana).

My question is, if I don't have the required IFR equipment (btw, presently, I don't know much about IFR flying), how practical would it be to use the plane for long cross countries? Will I end up cancelling a LOT of trips due to weather, or do I just have to have relatively good weather at the departure airport, fly around/over the weather, and have at least special VFR weather at the destination airport? (The only cross country experience I have so far is from New Orleans, Louisiana to Lake Charles, Louisiana).

Keep in mind, by the time I get my plane, I should be through Phase II of UPT, so I should be IFR certified by then (I don't know if that means anything in a non IFR plane).

I just thought I'd ask for some input. It's tough trying to buy a first aircraft when you don't know all that much about flying (60-something hours and a PPL in Cessna's). I want to be practical, and I certainly don't want to be unsafe!

Thanks for any advice!

Jordan

[Guest dumaisj]

Honestly, if you're in the market for a XC aircraft, you're going to want something IFR capable. Montana to Louisiana is probably never a safe VFR bet. After planning that sucker out a few times, you'll realize that you'll not want to cancel an entire trip due a few low ceilings here and there. Keep in mind, also, that an RV-8, depending on the options, might be a bit different than the 152s and 172s you've flown in, specifically the tailwheel. You'll require more training for that. Don't forget about insurance either. I suggest finding someone who has purchased and owned a few planes. He/she would be a big help in doing your hw.

[ 29. June 2004, 12:59: Message edited by: dumaisj ]

[flynhigh]

"Keep in mind, also, that an RV-8, depending on the options, might be a bit different than the 152s and 172s you've flown in, specifically the tailwheel." - dumaisj

This is not entirely true! Vans Aircraft does offer the RV-8A which has the tricycle gear configuration!

[Gravedigger]

You might want to look into an old Grumman Yankee, Tiger, Cheetah or something like that. Almost all are IFR equipped. They are very efficient and very comfortable for XC. I was going to buy a Yankee and I test flew it. The thing has better response than a Decathlon and only uses about 6 gallons an hour. Throw in a handheld and you are set. Good luck! If you have any specific questions, just send a PM. I've hung out at the airport long enough to have seen/flown/heard of almost every civilian plane on the market. LOL!

[Guest dumaisj]

True, but how many do you actually see...I don't think I've EVER come across a tri-gear RV. Most opt for the tailwhell config.

[Guest JoeMama]

Originally posted by dumaisj:

True, but how many do you actually see...I don't think I've EVER come across a tri-gear RV. Most opt for the tailwhell config.

LOL...Yeah..I want the tail wheel.

As far as transitioning from Cessnas to the RV, hopefully I'll end up at ENJJPT in Wichita Falls. There's a guy who does RV flight training out of Dallas/Ft Worth (and he trains on a tail wheel..RV6). Regardless of where I end up, I plan on getting properly checked out on tail wheel aircraft and the RV.

Thanks for the help, everyone! Even bare minimum IFR is gonna shoot up the price a lot, but I'd rather pay now than later (better than if I buy the plane without IFR now and end up cancelling most of my long cross countries).

[Gravedigger]

Ive seen a few trike RVs. Ive also seen some tailwheel Grumman conversions. They look like a six.

[Guest mfont]

If a tailwheel RV is really what you want, go for it. Keep in mind that a tailwheel endorcement is NOT a big deal at all, only a few hours w/ an insructor. But I will agree with dumaisj, an IFR capable aircraft is a necessity if you will eventually have your IFR rating. Good luck in choosing your aircraft, RV's are a great choice--- you will never find an unhappy owner of a VANS. I'm a glasair guy myself, but RV's are the Harley's of the sky. Those guys travel in packs! I've hardly never seen them fly alone. Owning an RV is like a membership in the VANS fraternity!

[Hacker]

The only thing I don't like about the RV is the outrageous prices that builders want to sell them for!!

You need to really take a look at what you want to use the airplane for. If all you want to do is fly cross country, there are LOTS better airplanes to get than an RV-8. If you want to go sport flying, the RV is excellent. There are other factors to consider, too...have you flown an RV? I really wanted a 6 or an 8 at one point, until I went and flew one. It turns out that there is a physiological factor for me -- I am 6'2" and I could not comfortably sit in the airplane. My skull was up against the canopy and my shins were hitting the instrument panel. That had a really big impact, and I'm glad I did before I spent 60 Grand on one.

[Guest JoeMama]

Originally posted by Hacker:

If all you want to do is fly cross country, there are LOTS better airplanes to get than an RV-8. If you want to go sport flying, the RV is excellent. There are other factors to consider, too...have you flown an RV?

I mainly want the RV for sport flying. I just have to justify buying one to my wife, so taking her on cross country trips to see her parents is a must!

I was sold on the RV when I was pledging to the 187th FW and got a back seat ride in an RV-4. Their unit has a subsquadron of RVs. We flew 3 ship to a fly in air show (I had never flown formation before)! It was a great experience, and I loved everything about the plane.

[zrooster99]

My 2 cents. Just bought a Tri Pacer...paid less than 20K for it (and 1400 hours total time on the airframe). Why not opt for something more affordable that is IFR certified now and trade up when you can afford what you want. The plane I REALLY want to own is a conventional gear bird too, but it'll be a few years until I can afford the half-a-mil for a P-51

[Guest HueyPilot]

Before you go purchasing an airplane, you need to do your homework. You buy an airplane to fit your mission, not because you "just gotta have it". That excuse is reserved for the truly rich, and I doubt you fit that category.

That being said, RVs are great little airplanes, and I do emphasize the "little". They are designed for one thing...being little sportsters. They are like the two-seat convertible sports car of the airplane world. Lots of fun to fly around the local area, but I doubt I'd want to take a trip in one.

Next, unless you're going to build one, you've got to buy one already built. There are plenty of great builders out there, who do good work. But honestly, this being MY opinion, I'm not going to spend a fortune and risk my pink arse flying in something that isn't built by a certified tried-and-true manufacturer. Maybe if I build it, but not someone else. Life sucks when you realize they didn't assemble the flight control cables correctly, while you're 4,000 feet AGL.

Next, if you're new to owning an airplane, you need to buy something easy to take care of, with a huge support system, and something that's easy to sell. An RV has pretty good support for a homebuilt, and there are alot of them. And they do sell fairly well. But they don't hold a candle as a "beginner's" airplane like the C172 or PA28 series. Granted, you're not going to do a whole lot of "sporting" in a Cherokee, but it'll get you where you want to go, for less money and headache, and if kept well, they sell fast.

I'm considering buying an airplane down the road, and I guarantee my first airplane will be something along the lines of a PA28-180 or something like that. Once you figure out the business of owning an aircraft, an RV-8 is probably not a bad investment.

For the average mil pilot, a PA-28 will run you about $40-50K. Insurance will run you around $1K a year. A hangar costs anywhere from $100 to $500 a month depending where you are. Annuals run around $700-1500 on up, depending on what's wrong with the airplane. Engine overhauls (every 1500-2000 hours on the engine) cost in the neighborhood of $15K for a good reputable shop. Not getting an overhaul and selling just prior to TBO will reduce your airplane's value by about that number. And remember...AVGAS runs around $3 and change upwards to $4 a gallon these days. A new radio, if your older one craps out, will cost you about $5K, and those fancy moving-map GPS displays cost over $20K. Bottom line...airplanes ain't cheap. Those figures above are for a cheap old PA-28, where there's about a million parts floating around and liability is low. An RV-8 will probably cost you more in just about every respect.

Just remember...there are three things in life best rented and not owned...boats, airplanes and women.

[Guest dumaisj]

Originally posted by HueyPilot:

Just remember...there are three things in life best rented and not owned...boats, airplanes and women.

hmmmm....if we're drawing an airplane parallel, think you could rent that last one "wet" as well?

[ 05. July 2004, 00:40: Message edited by: dumaisj ]

[Gravedigger]

Also for that last one, how much is the intructor for that and when do I solo? :D Does it require any actual or can it be simulated.

[Guest tentoad]

I have owned airplanes, boats and lots of other stuff mechanical. Let me give you the advice my tailwheel/seaplane IP gave me-

"If you are going to buy an airplane, buy a good one".

That means dont skimp and buy an unfinished project if thats not what your looking for. Dont touch an airplane with poor records if you arent planning on starting your A&P training.

If you rationalize a problem like low compression or an AD not complied with and it grounds you and soaks up all that Lt pay you will learn to hate it.

Buy something sound that you can learn about airplane ownership in. There are a lot of $$$ pitfalls that can bite, but if you have done your homework it wont be so bad.

I would discourage you from owning an airplane at UPT. The USAF is going to want you to fly one way- their way. Learning other habits might not hurt, but it certainly wont help.

As for tailwheel, or conventional gear flying I cant say enough about it. I racked up 800 hours of tailwheel time and never had a problem. Scared myself a lot... It teaches you that flying is finally over when the last knot is tied in parking.

I would suggest a couple years in a Champ, Luscome, Taylorcraft or Stinson before you start buying a panel with wings. Its funner flying than IFR and you will have awesome adventures flying low and slow. I camped all over the US in my old Champ. With the money saved you can buy cheap airline tickets to actually get somewhere...

Good Luck

Tentoad

Good luck

[Guest F15Duke]

Jordan,

What part of UPT are you in now? Where are you going through training? Are you active duty or ANG?

[Guest JoeMama]

Duke,

I'm not in UPT yet. I'm still waiting on the Guard Bureau for dates. I should start training by Christmas.

My unit is pushing for ENJJPT, but of course that's no sure thing at this point. If I don't get ENJJPT, it's a coin toss. From what they tell me, guard guys don't get to pick their SUPT base(s).

I'm the "early FY05" UPT selectee for the 120th FW, Great Falls, MT (F-16 unit).

[Guest pilotcj525]

"Life sucks when you realize they didn't assemble the flight control cables correctly, while you're 4,000 feet AGL."

I think it sucks more when you find out at 100 feet AGL : )

[Guest ifrflyer]

Originally posted by c17wannabe:

Also for that last one, how much is the intructor for that and when do I solo? :D Does it require any actual or can it be simulated.

If simulated, would that involve some "hand propping"?

[Gravedigger]

HAHAHAHAHA. :D