Flying the T-43?

[barney]

was just wondering what you nav studs out there thought of the T-43. is it like flying on an airliner or what. did they build you a window to look out of. do you ever do any low level work. or are you just to busy to care about the ride. also, another serious question, do the IN's get pissed if you snoose on the plane.

[ 06. August 2006, 05:44: Message edited by: Toro ]

[BONE WSO]

I came from pcola and am here for EWO and we fly 2 flights in it. I think it is a POS, it is supposed to be a navigation trainer but yet the tacan constantly is off and usually does not match the pilot's tacan. Also there is no CDI bar, I don't know if this is standard in old planes but I have had one in every plane I have been in. The radar is almost totally worthless, and the INS drifts very bad. The studs fly with cellnav, and being 3-5 miles off course is not uncommon.

[ 02. August 2006, 22:33: Message edited by: AggieSteven02 ]

[barney]

do the IN's get pissed that your calculations are off or do they expect it and it is no big deal-also what did you train in w/ the navy

[JVBFLY]

only one student is the "lead" nav at a time. This used to be divided by different phases of flight. It is an old airplane, and you are there to learn the basics. Most advanced INS and FMS training comes at a later date in the FTU. There are a couple of windows, but no time to look out them as a student. Sleep on the job in an airplane? Certainly possible once you are qualified and know what is going on. But as far as I remember, as a student, there is hardly time to eat and drink, let alone sleep. Low level is done in the T-1.

[barney]

okay no sleeping but what i meant was dipping/chewing/copenhagen/snoosing on the airplane-do the IN's get pissed?

thanks

[BONE WSO]

I don't really know if the instructors expect it or what cause I only did 2 flights in it and they were mainly demo. We flew T-6, T-1, and T-39 in pcola. The training is very different.

[BONE WSO]

Dude you are in freakin flight school, you aren't gonna sleep on the plane for sure, and I seriously doubt they would let you dip on the plane since it is an AETC rule and Randolph is AETC headqtrs.

[Toasty]

Yeah, actually there's a spitoon at each instructor console....WTFO?

We don't do celestial nav at Randolph anymore either. The only "slow" parts are enroute on long legs.

[Mike Honcho]

Originally posted by AggieSteven02:

Dude you are in freakin flight school, you aren't gonna sleep on the plane for sure, and I seriously doubt they would let you dip on the plane since it is an AETC rule and Randolph is AETC headqtrs.

Come on now, don't act like you never drifted off on a 2 stud T-1 hop.

On a serious note, why are you on the t-43, to try and have something to do during EWO? Must be a real change of pace after 86.

[cragspider]

It's like riding on any other 737 out there. Its nothing special. Yes the radars do suck, but it depends on the level of suckyness to where you are located in the training compartment. The INS wanders like every other INS out there. As for dipping on the plane Im not going to comment on that. Also i duno where the pcola guy gets off talking about how its a pos, cause all he did was get a ride on it for a xc, which is really "nav intensive".

[Guest redonohoe]

Actually I know several students that frequently dipped during both flights and sims. In fact I'm pretty sure several of the instructors were as well. As far as sleeping on the jet, I had more than a few instructors fall asleep so you could probably doze a little while they're asleep.

I know they used to fly low level routes a while ago but currently the closest thing is on two flights you work in MOA at around 6000A but the pilots actuallly handle everything during that time. We were encouraged to get up and use the restroom, visit with our friends and take pictures.

I never thought the workload was too bad during the flights, you''ll be busy at times but for the most part it's pretty laid back. Of course the workload is very IN driven so it depends on the IN that you get for the flight.

IMHO the flights are easy, it's the sims that are more difficult and where you actually learn something.

[Guest elroy]

The thing is - sure the instruments suck sometimes. But you still have to navigate it. The radar and BDHI setup is good enough to be within a mile of actual (*read INS present position).

The flights are a good chance to learn from instructors the skills you need during the sims. It is also pretty cool to actually fly approaches into other airfields...a little more rewarding than in the sim box.

Last thing - its also a good chance to sound like a complete idiot on the radio...to the world.

[Guest Absolutlyfly]

Yeah, actually there's a spitoon at each instructor console....WTFO?

I am going to have to raise an eyebrow to this statement.

[BONE WSO]

Cragspider, I still was on the jet for 9 hours and I saw what it was capable of and how guys that are about to get their wings dont exactly keep it on the blackline, and I can see why. If it is so good then just explain to me why we need a cellnav clearance? I guess I just compare it to pcola, where it is very very different and I have actually seen both of the trainings so I can make some sorta comparison.

[Guest elroy]

I will go ahead and jump on this one. The reason that Cel Nav clearance exists still is two fold. One we used to do Celestial Nav, up until '96 if I remember right. Second, during primary, lead is navigating off of NAVAIDS, simple radar, and dead reckoning. Now as mentioned above, these instruments are questionable.

Some folks don't nail down how to nav off of NAVAIDS/Radar as quickly as others. They need CelNav, to figure stuff out, instead of having an instructor barking at them when they are a mile right.

Later on you notice studs get the INS (1...for the entire plane). We also get Falcon view. We have to have that to supplement the INS.

Point being - We know the instruments are suspect. Its old. CelNav is for newbies trying to figure out their ass from a hole in the ground

[ 02. August 2006, 22:50: Message edited by: ElRoy ]

[Guest elroy]

That's great except - this discussion isn't labled "which is harder - CSO training or UPT". It is about the T43. Just sayin.

[ 02. August 2006, 23:32: Message edited by: ElRoy ]

[Guest J Barnes]

Originally posted by AggieSteven02:

Cragspider, I still was on the jet for 9 hours and I saw what it was capable of and how guys that are about to get their wings dont exactly keep it on the blackline, and I can see why. If it is so good then just explain to me why we need a cellnav clearance? I guess I just compare it to pcola, where it is very very different and I have actually seen both of the trainings so I can make some sorta comparison.

You were on CELL NAV during a X-Country? You were only in the air for 8 hours max and you can't compare a X-country flight with normal training flights. They're two different animals.

[Guest elroy]

Hey Clover,

Did you guys take the Falconview on the X Country? What was the mission like?

[Guest J Barnes]

We did. But my console didn't use it, Of course lead and the guys in the aft flew GPS the whole way (Slight corrections while watching thier movie). Apparently we get graded on those flights. I was downgraded for a wafer hit, but on the whole, who gives a sh*t? Some instructors want to pretend to do a drop and bunch of fixes.

Most just want to watch whatever movie you have.

[Cooter]

Wafer hits, LMAO! I find that so funny sitting here listnening to 4 radios all day and all the screwups I hear (Mine included). Key mike brain disengage..."krrrr uh krrrr...standby".

Cooter

[FireMission]

All this talk of GPS and movie watching during training sorties makes me wonder what kind of nav the Randolph program is producing.

[JVBFLY]

ummmm....they no longer produce NAVs actually. So that should at least answer your question. To facilitate this movie watching fiesta, the AF changed the rating/name to CSO...pronounced "cheese-OH!". And you ask what kind they are, the names fits well. Most coming from the new program are not navigators, they are truly systems operators.

[FireMission]

yeah, but being a rated job you'd think they'd do more to promote greater SA and air sense during training and then let them go be CSOs once they get to their FTU. ah well. i'm not in charge.

[ 06. August 2006, 11:37: Message edited by: Airp ]

[Guest elroy]

You might just be missing the point of the XCountry. It is at the ass end of the program after all grading that matters is done. Most instructors probably would prefer not to grade you.

I don't think that repeating the same tasks over and over again for six hours would help promote greater SA and air sense. Once you get it you get it.

And Airp - I know using this whole GPS thing sounds kinda crazy. But we are using the same tools that many of us will be given at our FTU. Falcon view/PFPS...and yes even DVD players - all part of the mission (so I have been told by a number of instructors).

[Guest mikedjp]

I'm at Randolph, and I've yet to see or hear about anyone watching a movie during a training sortie, however I'm still in primary. They at least keep us busy thorugh Primary and Intermediate. After my first flight I regretted not getting Pensacola. I didn't go for pensacola because I wanted to try to get into an AFSOC 130..but they don't drop those to Randolph anymore, probably because of the above mentioned movie watching on cross countries.