Helo versus fighter aircraft

[Guest Bushmaster]

Have you ever thought of a situation where an attack helo faces a high performance jet fighter?

Today I was discussing this with another armt dawg, which we made up a scenario where a single Longbow was confronted by a Viper... I defended the idea that I would be more maneuvrable and can hide, however I would not have any weapons to hit the jet unless I am really lucky...

What do you think?

[Hacker]

Probably an accurate assessment of the scenario. Remember, though, that at least one fighter has an LGB-versus-helo kill, so be careful of where you decide to "hide".

Of course, you could also just wait for the Viper to bingo out or flame out, and then you'd be okay.

[Guest Bushmaster]

Yep, I was told that, Eagle versus a Hip right?

Not sure how todays viper guys go about lasing, but I think it will warn the Longbow right away when it is painted. Viper might try a free fall LGB and lase it the last moment.

Unless the Viper is flying real low there is nothing much Longbow can do. Even if it flying low since he is going to real fast Longbow doesn't have the weapons to shoot him down. Longbow shoul definitely go defensive I guess.

[Hacker]

It was an F-15E versus a Hind - hit it with a GBU-10. It actually wasn't intentionally an air-to-air kill; they dropped the bomb with the '24 on the ground and while the bomb was in flight the Hind took off. The WSO just kept the laser spot on it until the bomb impacted, which just happened to be while the helo was in flight. According to the SOF guys on the ground who watched the whole thing happen, the helo vaporized "like in a James Bond movie". The WSO who lased the bomb was my first F-15E Squadron Commander and put up with us newbies constantly asking him to tell the story.

As an aside, I've seen the type of helo reported both on the internet and in books as anything from a Hip to an MD-500. Having talked to both guys who were there -- Rhino and Chewie -- they say it was a Hind. The "official" kill went on the books in 2002 (10 years after the fact!!) as a Hind.

Out of curiosity (and if you can say so on the internet) how do you know if you're being lased? Realize that depending on what kind of LGB is headed your way, you may only get 8-10 seconds of warning even if you can detect the laser spot on you. Even if you move, the guy lasing the bomb in can follow you and guide it all the way to impact (unless you can get more than a mile or two away in 10 seconds).

I don't think you'd find any fighter outside of a Hog staying low to fight a helo. Personally, I'd stay high, where you can't get to me (as you said) and reach out and touch you with a heater, LGB, or (if I was feeling really sporting) a strafe pass.

I would think that if there were a fighter that wanted to get down in the weeds to tango with ya, you'd at least have a chance of getting a snap shot at him with your gun, or popping a heater off at him (if you have some -- not sure what the standard Longbow loadout is).

[Guest Bushmaster]

Originally posted by Hacker:

It was an F-15E versus a Hind - hit it with a GBU-10. It actually wasn't intentionally an air-to-air kill; they dropped the bomb with the '24 on the ground and while the bomb was in flight the Hind took off. The WSO just kept the laser spot on it until the bomb impacted, which just happened to be while the helo was in flight. According to the SOF guys on the ground who watched the whole thing happen, the helo vaporized "like in a James Bond movie". The WSO who lased the bomb was my first F-15E Squadron Commander and put up with us newbies constantly asking him to tell the story.

As an aside, I've seen the type of helo reported both on the internet and in books as anything from a Hip to an MD-500. Having talked to both guys who were there -- Rhino and Chewie -- they say it was a Hind. The "official" kill went on the books in 2002 (10 years after the fact!!) as a Hind.

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't know the deatils, is there a video of this incident on the net?

Out of curiosity (and if you can say so on the internet) how do you know if you're being lased?

Most Army choppers have the AN/AVR-2A Laser detection set nowadays which is also being used with the Longbows, if that is what you meant to ask...

Realize that depending on what kind of LGB is headed your way, you may only get 8-10 seconds of warning even if you can detect the laser spot on you. Even if you move, the guy lasing the bomb in can follow you and guide it all the way to impact (unless you can get more than a mile or two away in 10 seconds).

That makes sense, that is why I said I really don't know much about the LGB deployment tactics, it depends on that tactic I guess. If the jet fighter starts to lase from way far out, that should give time to the chopper guys to figure out an escape pattern, provided they are not in a flat desert environment. That should be the only way out. 10 sec warning, hurry up and run for cover. Though Longbow could see the air target 8 kms out, by watching the target on the radar I don't know if you could assume they are coming in for a LGB pass.

I don't think you'd find any fighter outside of a Hog staying low to fight a helo. Personally, I'd stay high, where you can't get to me (as you said) and reach out and touch you with a heater, LGB, or (if I was feeling really sporting) a strafe pass.

Longbow carries an active IR jammer, they don't have flares anymore for that reason, mostly designed for small shoulder launched SAMS, stingers etc, not sure on the capabilities against a sidewinder, should be the same. Again the choppers biggest advantage is to aim weapons by turning of pilot's head but you gotta take cover before you attempt to do that. LGB I think is the most decisive tactic.

I would think that if there were a fighter that wanted to get down in the weeds to tango with ya, you'd at least have a chance of getting a snap shot at him with your gun, or popping a heater off at him (if you have some -- not sure what the standard Longbow loadout is).

No A2A weapons for the Longbow, we don't load them no more, A2A capability is only limited to radar tracking. M230 gun is slow in my opinion and spreads the rounds, but each round has a 10 feet blast area. I believe Longbow can only shoot a jet when it is coming low and slow and head on, that is the only way to get him with the gun, otherwise the fighter is moving to fast even to slave that gun to TADS or FCR. Laser Hellfire is another option where I don't think fighters have laser detection sets, that would be deadly.

Say I am hiding behind a hill or some tress and the jet is flying low to get a glance, once it passes, Lift up, lase, shoot, Hellfire is relatively short range though and not that fast but has about 10 secs of TOF, that might be enough to catch the jet if the pilot is not watching his 6.

[B-O-double-Z]

Say I am hiding behind a hill or some tress and the jet is flying low to get a glance, once it passes, Lift up, lase, shoot, Hellfire is relatively short range though and not that fast but has about 10 secs of TOF, that might be enough to catch the jet if the pilot is not watching his 6 .

I've done DACT against helos quite a few times and heard this argument from Apache pilots before.

Yes, you can lock up an airplane with a hellfire...but once launched, the missile doesn't have the aerodynamic maneuver capability to hit an airplane. It just wouldn't hit something going that fast--doesn't have the ability to process the angular line of sight rate or proportional navigation algorithms. Like a Maverick missile, it has a big heavy body and small fins. Contrast that to an Air-to-Air missile which has a narrow body and huge fins/canards. BL...Locking something doesn't equal hitting it.

The best tactics against helos from an A-10 perspective...

Stay high, keep them in sight, roll-in with a steep dive angle (like dropping a dive bomb) and use the AIM-9 or Gun. In my experience, helos can be real hard to lock with an AIM-9. The gun becomes the weapon of choice. The A-10 doesn't have a radar to augment an air-to-air gunsight. It uses assumptions input by the pilot for low aspect and high aspect shots. The plane allows you to input assumptions for two different adversaries. We normally include inputs for a nominal fast moving fighter, and a helicopter.

You don't want to get down low and slow and try to "dogfight" a helicopter. It's best to stay considerably higher, keep the speed up, and if the shot doesn't work out, then come off and do it again. It's kind of like how a smart F-15/16 guy fights an A-10. You don't want to negate your advantage by fighting them in their natural regime.

[Guest Bushmaster]

I think this is an awesome response, thanks...

Only thing the helo can do is to hide I guess then huh? I agree that agm-114 would never score a fighter or A-10 kill, unless head on or something, but it should be so easy to dodge.

[Beaver]

I think high angle strafe would be the way to go. Just keep doing passes until you get him.

[Guest Bushmaster]

For a A-10 maybe, how is that going to work in the Viper?

[Beaver]

It works exactly the same way. Just hang out above him until he stops and roll in on him. Vipers do 45 degree high angle strafe.

[Guest Bushmaster]

High rate of fire and not a lot of ammo though, that was what I was thinking, one or two misses then there might not be another chance for a strafing run.

Just for the sake of discussion, just curious what altitude (AGL) would be safe to stand-off and then roll in?

[Guest rotorhead]

AFTTP 3-1 vol xx (24 for H-60, 34 for H-53) (SECRET) contain entire sections on helo v. FW engagements. Neither wants to be in each other's sandbox.

Another FW v. Helo engagement to remember: 2 F-15s shot down 2 UH-60s in Turkey, one AMRAAM, one Sidewinder, killed 26...of course, the helos were not hiding, returning fire, or even maneuvering...ironically the eagles shot down callsigns Eagle 1 and Eagle 2.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Beaver:

I think high angle strafe would be the way to go. Just keep doing passes until you get him.

That's what Shanghai did in WW Desert Storm. 900 rounds of 30MM party mix later he had a "kill". He rode that wave after the war like he was the next Robin Olds. You wouldn't believe the number of phone calls that poured into the squadron every week asking him to come talk to some group about his "kill". Of course, that was before we had women who get their asses shot off and live to tell about it. Funny what people think is important or hard to do.

I hit a black Limo doing over 120 MPH with a maverick and didn't get shit for credit but it sure was cool.

"Hotel 55, Machete, INVESTIGATE high speed mover westbound Rockridge 090/32..."

"Machete, Hotel 55, contact convoy of five vehicles hauling ass down the highway Rockridge 088/26, the third vehicle is a black limo.."

"Hotel 55, Machete, cleared to engage the black limo."

"Excuse me Mr Baghdad Trump, there's a call coming in from Raytheon for you..."

[Guest Awol55]

"Excuse me Mr Baghdad Trump, there's a call coming in from Raytheon for you..."

That's awesome!

My ARNG unit used to provide two and three ship formations for the local ANG unit (vipers) to practice their targeting skills. I always thought it sucked to be the lamb staked out for the wolves, so I would always get a copy of the Vipers SPIN and get their internal UHF freq. to monitor. The final insult for me was that we had to give the vipers bogey dope every time they asked for it. My Army buddies did not get what I was doing, until I would call for a formation split, and decel to a hover behind some trees or something. We could hear the fast movers above lose contact, then frantically search to reaquire us. Now getting them down into the weeds to try to get us is another issue. As soon as one of our ships would try to run, the vipers would lock them up and it would be all over.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

"Hotel 55, Machete, INVESTIGATE high speed mover westbound Rockridge 090/32..."

Rock Ridge...nice to know that guys back in The Storm had a little sense of humor when they named the bullseye.

If only they had named the Ocean Parkway procedures in OIF the 'William J. LaPetomane Thru-Way'.

"Somebody's gonna have to go back and get a sh*t-load of dimes!"

[Guest Bushmaster]

Originally posted by Awol55:

My Army buddies did not get what I was doing, until I would call for a formation split, and decel to a hover behind some trees or something. We could hear the fast movers above lose contact, then frantically search to reaquire us.

ROFL!! Oh yea hoah! That is what I am talking about...

What are you flying Awol?

[Guest Awol55]

I flew -60A/L's. Our sister unit had Cobra's (I know - Smithsonian fodder). We would usually go out with either two Blackhawks and a Cobra, or Two Blackhawks and two Cobra's. It was hilarious because I knew slowing down would screw up their solution, and there was a minimum speed that their radar could not paint us - I think it was below about 50 kts. or so. :D

[Gravedigger]

Originally posted by Hacker:

"Somebody's gonna have to go back and get a sh*t-load of dimes!"

:D Excellent. I think my first statement in the box would probably be, "where are all the white women at?"

[El Duderino]

This thread brings to mind one of the fine Hollywood examples of accurately portraying military operations. I am of course talking about the movie Firebirds, arguably the finest example of acting from Tommy Lee Jones and Nicholas Cage ever seen.

Anyone remember the scene were the Apaches take on Saab JA-35s (I think that was the model) and hose them down with Stingers? Totally awesome. I think it would have been better if they had a scene of the Apache flying inverted over the fighter flipping them the bird, ala Top Gun. If you see it in the movies it's possible right?

-Dude

[Guest Bushmaster]

Originally posted by Awol55:

I flew -60A/L's. Our sister unit had Cobra's (I know - Smithsonian fodder). We would usually go out with either two Blackhawks and a Cobra, or Two Blackhawks and two Cobra's. It was hilarious because I knew slowing down would screw up their solution, and there was a minimum speed that their radar could not paint us - I think it was below about 50 kts. or so. :D

No kidding... But that UHF freq. thing gave me a good idea, I will keep that in mind.

You sister unit, they transitioned to Apaches I assume, what state if you don't mind?

Originally posted by El Duderino:

This thread brings to mind one of the fine Hollywood examples of accurately portraying military operations. I am of course talking about the movie Firebirds, arguably the finest example of acting from Tommy Lee Jones and Nicholas Cage ever seen.

Anyone remember the scene were the Apaches take on Saab JA-35s (I think that was the model) and hose them down with Stingers? Totally awesome. I think it would have been better if they had a scene of the Apache flying inverted over the fighter flipping them the bird, ala Top Gun. If you see it in the movies it's possible right?

-Dude

Apaches don't carry A2A weapons no more, just a side note.

[Guest Awol55]

I was in the NE ARNG. The Cav unit actually got caught up in that AH-1 disposal frenzy - ended up trading their AH-1's for OH-58's supposedly for the time being. They sort of got caught in that rush to get rid of the AH-1, and it will be awhile before anything comes down the pipe.

[El Duderino]

Bushmaster,

I gathered that Apaches don't carry A2A from your earlier post

No A2A weapons for the Longbow, we don't load them no more, A2A capability is only limited to radar tracking.

I just thought I would point out a scene from Hollywood that was depicting your hypothetical situation and how movies typically embelish almost to the point of absurdity. I guess it just didn't translate. I liked the Homer picture though.

-Dude

[Guest Bushmaster]

Originally posted by Awol55:

I was in the NE ARNG. The Cav unit actually got caught up in that AH-1 disposal frenzy - ended up trading their AH-1's for OH-58's supposedly for the time being. They sort of got caught in that rush to get rid of the AH-1, and it will be awhile before anything comes down the pipe.

Ah good ol midwest, I live in SD myself and I always wished our unit had Apaches, I would have stayed guard. They have Blackhawks and I don't know if I can transfer to that unit after I serve my active duty.

I just thought I would point out a scene from Hollywood that was depicting your hypothetical situation and how movies typically embelish almost to the point of absurdity. I guess it just didn't translate. I liked the Homer picture though.

Oh darn, this one is for me then....