Strike Navs to Buff

[Guest sickels101]

Heard a rumor from a friend at strike nav training in P-Cola that the B-1 and F-15E pipelines are clogged so they are sending these studs to the B-52.

Anybody on here heard the same, or have concrete evidence either way?

[Guest scottaxelson]

We got a few bubbas up here that went to Pcola and got B1s or Strike eagles but then were sent B52 due to overmanning issues. So it HAS happened in the past.

However, while we arent overmanned excessively like the B1 is now, with the upcoming reduction in fleet that seems likely, We will be pretty well overmanned once that happens. So who knows?

[Dewey...BoneDriver]

I haven't seen all the numbers but if there is a problem for Navs it isn't an issue of overmanning in the squadrons for WSO's, but more of an issue of the "pipline being clogged" like SNTS said. We could use more but the FTU can't crank them out any faster and that is were the issue would likely be.

edited for grammar

[ 24. March 2006, 15:49: Message edited by: Dewey...BoneDriver ]

[Guest 89 Ride]

2 students graduated today from Pensacola that are going to BUFF's. Right now, studs are selecting F-15E or Strike with strike options being B-1, B-52, or spec ops C-130. No C-130's given out yet but expect it soon. New selection options because of the the 28th at Dyess being so backed up. This is from the horse’s mouth.

[Guest Hoser]

The F-15E community is not even close to being overmanned with WSO's.

We need more.

Hoser

[ 26. March 2006, 16:15: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[NUKE]

Supposedly in FY07 (ME!) they will dropping more strikefighter slots than strike (35/30 mix)out of here. Saw this info on the production breakdown spread sheet off AF HQ website? Where ever it was, it was official, but no telling if the higher ups will modify this...

[Guest 89 Ride]

They've been producing more F-15E WSOs than B-1 WSO's for at least 5 years. FY07 will see that trend increase. BTW, Pensacola B-52/C-130 slots are augmenting Randolph, not supplanting them.

[Skitzo]

Anyone have any insight on why Dyess is so backed up?

I was talking to a B-1 guy and he said ever since they changed the requirement for the AC upgrade they have been having a real problem in the pipeline.

Although I've always heard that the B-1 is a tough bird to keep in the air... is it more of a MX issue? Or a FHP issue?

Of course the whole issue boils down to money, either not enough money to fly the guys the sorties they need to UG or not enough MX money to fly em or not enough money in the FHP.

[Guest gonads]

Originally posted by ktulu34535:

Anyone have any insight on why Dyess is so backed up?

I can think of two reasons off the top of my cranial space...

OEF

OIF

[pbar]

Actually the Bone got 15 more WSOs in the pipeline this year than they have sorties for. That's two whole FTU classes worth of studs. This extra load was never programmed for and the priority was on reducing the wait to start for the F-15E FTU. Finally our AFPC guy was able to get Air Staff notice the 9 month wait at Dyess. Ergo the other airframes at P-cola...

On top of that, Dyess MX has had more challenges than Ellsworth. First off, the Weapons School and 337 TES get priority for jets and the 28th jets also spend a lot more time doing low level and pattern work. That extra wear and tear is reflected in lower MC rates.

Incidentally the first two F-15E WSOs from P-cola just showed up to EWO school- the first ones we've seen in almost 18 months. This summer we get a couple who already have an ops tour under their belts. Apparently they are getting another ops tour out of the deal, which is rare in the Strike Eagle from what I hear. We've heard we're going to get 3-4 a quarter for the foreseeable future and there are more applicants than slots.

PBAR

563 FTS EWO School instructor, ex B-1B FTU instructor

[scoobs]

What is the AC requirement now for the Bone?

[Bergman]

Originally posted by scoobs:

What is the AC requirement now for the Bone?

11-2B-1 Vol 1

6.2. Pilot Upgrade Program (PUP). This program establishes minimum guidelines for upgrade Aircraft Commander (AC).

6.2.1. Program Entry. Requirements are:

6.2.1.1. Nominated by the unit commander.

6.2.1.2. Current and qualified pilot.

6.2.1.3. One of the following flying hour requirements:

6.2.1.3.1. 350 post FTU B-1 hours, and 80 RAP/contingency sorties.

6.2.1.3.2. 750 total hours, 200 post FTU B-1 hours, and 40 RAP/contingency sorties.

My question to the B-1 guys is how long does it take to get "350 post FTU hours" and/or "700 total hours"? That seems like an very small amount of experience to me. I'm guessing it still takes 3-4 years to get that kind of time?

[scoobs]

So this means that FAIPS wont go right to the left seat?

[Flare]

Wow. Scoobs throws out an intelligent question....I'm impressed! Anyone want to answer that?

[F-15E WSO]

Originally posted by pbar:

Incidentally the first two F-15E WSOs from P-cola just showed up to EWO school- the first ones we've seen in almost 18 months. This summer we get a couple who already have an ops tour under their belts. Apparently they are getting another ops tour out of the deal, which is rare in the Strike Eagle from what I hear. We've heard we're going to get 3-4 a quarter for the foreseeable future and there are more applicants than slots.

From the F-15E Assignment guy:

"Due to the significant lack of F-15E EWO production since FY 00, I will continue to send a single OPS WSO from each base to EWO school NET 2 years TOS. This maybe in addition to OPS to OPS movers and will not be a permanent policy but a one year proposal to help backfill the lack of past production. Following course completion, the new EWO will PCS to another F-15E OPS assignment and perform EWO specific duties in the SQD/WING. EWO’s are no longer eligible, unless they VOLUNTEER, for traditional ALFA tours (ALO/Pensacola) and NON EWO specific remotes but maybe assigned to EWO duties in the future to include (EWO specific remotes, Randolph EWO school and EA-6. EWO school is 75 training days and on a fixed academic schedule with only 2 flying days allocated. WSO’s need not be on the current VML to “VOL” for this assignment but needs to have NLT 2 years TOS. BL, a great deal for another OPS assignment!"

I'd be kinda wary of this. Ops-to-Ops is great, but I imagine there's a price to pay down the road. Prowler tour, random wing EWO at a non F-15E base don't sound too fun. The Growler might be fun ride though. Probably lots o' bells and whistles.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by 89 Ride:

They've been producing more F-15E WSOs than B-1 WSO's for at least 5 years. FY07 will see that trend increase. BTW, Pensacola B-52/C-130 slots are augmenting Randolph, not supplanting them.

I don't think it so much producing more 15E WSO's as producing less B-1 WSO's. The class size at the 15E FTU has been steady at 12 pilots and 12 WSO's for many years now.

Hoser

[Guest 89 Ride]

Originally posted by Hoser:

I don't think it so much producing more 15E WSO's as producing less B-1 WSO's. The class size at the 15E FTU has been steady at 12 pilots and 12 WSO's for many years now.

[Guest 89 Ride]

Originally posted by scoobs:

So this means that FAIPS wont go right to the left seat?

FAIPs can and do leave the B-1 FTU as AC's. I know of at least 2 guys that did just that.

[scoobs]

So the link Bergman posted isn't right? Or are they making exceptions to the rule?

[Dewey...BoneDriver]

The link Bergman posted is the requirments for entry into PUP. PUP is the program for taking Co-pilots and upgrading them to AC's within the community. So the link posted is correct, and it is not an exception to this rule that allows faips to be qualified as ACs at B-1 IQC. Since it did not apply to me I have not researched the reg or req's for being qualified out of Dyess as an AC.

On a seperate note, I'll agree with pbar and say that it is not the new AC requirements that are affecting the IQC pipeline since AC's are upgraded in house. It is a combination of factors to include the high ops tempo(OIF/OEF), added airframe stresses as mentioned AND aircraft upgrades from Block D to Block E and now to SB-10.

edited for spelling

[ 28. March 2006, 16:18: Message edited by: Dewey...BoneDriver ]

[Dewey...BoneDriver]

For Bergman's question...

"My question to the B-1 guys is how long does it take to get "350 post FTU hours" and/or "700 total hours"? That seems like an very small amount of experience to me. I'm guessing it still takes 3-4 years to get that kind of time?"

As a copilot if you don't deploy it will take about three years to get the hours. I have been at Ellsworth for about a year and I have about 100 hours in the last year. The other part to the question, that you didn't ask, is how long does it take to get the RAP sortie requirement?

Figure that the average copilot gets 4 sorties per month if you don't take leave and TDY's and Christmas and the like into account. With that, you get ~40 RAP sorties a year. That's if things are going really well. So at a minimum it is at least two years to make the RAP sortie requirement. I think most guys end up having the hours and are trying to finish getting their sorties. Average guy (average as in opportunity) will upgrade just prior to PCS'ing to an Alpha tour. Sometimes good dudes don't upgrade before leaving, timing being what it is in the Air Force.

[Guest ralph]

So are the manning issues going down? Didn't copilots used to get one flight a month?

[busdriver]

Why would a FAIP get to leave the school house as an AC? While you may have great air sense, you don't know the mission at all.

[Toro]

Originally posted by busdriver:

Why would a FAIP get to leave the school house as an AC? While you may have great air sense, you don't know the mission at all.

I don't know about the Bone, but FAIPs who go to Strike Eagles can upgrade to Flight Lead with less hours than everybody else. AFI 11-2F-15E Vol says you need 300 hours to enter FLUG, or 200 if you're a prior FAIP. It's not about knowing the mission, it's about having prior experience and airmanship to lead a 2-ship around.