Fighter AD vs. Guard flying time

[Guest Wicked27]

After doing some searches, looks like AD fighter pilots rack around 300 hours a year (typically)? Any comments from the experts? From what I understand, a guard bum could rack around 100 hours during a year of typical guard weekend duty? I basically want to fly as much as I can, and was led to believe a guard fighter bum could bum his way up to around 500 hrs a year if he hung around the squadron all day?...or is that just being active duty guard? Just trying to decide if I should keep interviewing with guard units or go AD AF. I originally was going active before having trouble with a bunch of stupid recruiters. I posted earlier today and I'll say it again, I appreciate all the help this board provides, you guys have saved me a lot of trouble and aggravation. I appreciate your opinions.

[Guest copenhagen]

And here I just thought I was lucky to get the chance to go to UPT.

[Guest rapier01]

With the Guard you know which airframe you're headed to, but if you're lucky enough to get any flight slot, be grateful.

[Guest Wicked27]

I agree. Anyone who goes to UPT is lucky. I've been trying to get a UPT slot in the air force for 4 years. After being so disgusted with air force recruiters and getting the run around, I started going for guard slots, and finally getting somewhere now. Just interested in knowing who racks up the most hours, guard or active duty fighter pilots?

[Guest delta]

What are you so worried about getting hours for?Dude, just try getting selected first and worry about the hours later. Good luck with the selection process.

Later...

[brabus]

It seems that if hours are your concern, why are you going for fighters? Everyone knows the heavy guys rack up way more hours (generally).

[Ram]

Originally posted by brabus:

It seems that if hours are your concern, why are you going for fighters? Everyone knows the heavy guys rack up way more hours (generally).

Yup. Even more than FAIPs do.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by brabus:

It seems that if hours are your concern, why are you going for fighters? Everyone knows the heavy guys rack up way more hours (generally).

There is also a difference between quantity and quality.

I believe a fighter guy gets more out of a .9 BFM sortie than a C-17's get out of flying 9.6 hours across the pond.

Hoser

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Hoser:

I believe a fighter guy gets more out of a .9 BFM sortie than a C-17's get out of flying 9.6 hours across the pond.

Hoser

Just because the heavy guys make flying across the pond look easy, doesn't mean it is.

While I agree with your core argument of quality vs. quantity (I've known several 3000 hour pilots who were complete fools in the jet), I think there are a lot of things heavies do on a daily basis that fighter guys underestimate. Having flown with 30+ former A-7/F-16 guys for years now, I've heard the phrase, "This shit is a lot tougher than it looks" many, many times during our simpleton tanker debriefs.

[Guest Wicked27]

I would think if someone was selected to fly an F-15, F-16, A-10, they would want to fly as much as possible, however they could steal the time...even if they were asked to become an instructor pilot in that airframe.

I assume active duty has more flight time, since they participate in tons of training simulations (i.e. red flag, European-American mock engagements...etc), rack up time as instructors, first to deploy and get in on the action, pyramid into F-22/JSF/F-117, etc. Just wondering how a newbie fighter pilot in the guard flying around the same flag pole would compete with an active duty fighter pilot who's flown all over the country and world, especially during a war. I'm wondering if I'd be on the same playing field as an active duty air force pilot if I keep going for guard slots. How much flight time does an AF AD fighter pilot typically get a week?

[brabus]

You should think about going AD if you want to do all those deployments, go around the world, red flag, etc. Why not if you want to fly "a lot" and do all that cool stuff? I know you said you've had a pain in the ass with recruiters and what not, but if you want that stuff, you can push through the crap and get in. I've been told fighters range from about 3-6 hrs/wk during a normal week at a "normal" Ops job, excluding stuff like red flag, being an IP, etc. Is that right guys? (Hoser, Toro, Hacker, etc).

[EvilEagle]

It depends, the more qualified you are, the more you fly. IP's are always the high fliers and wingmen are usually the low fliers because there are only certain positions the wingmen can fly in, where IP's/flight leads can fly anywhere.

Typically you get around 3 sorties a week. As an inexperienced guy, you are supposed to get 10 sorties a month to maintain CMR (Combat Mission Ready) status.

My friends in the guard fly more than I do. And as far as just flying around the flag pole, that isn't true at all. I know guard guys that have gone all over the world for exercises, not to mention creek exchanges. The ANG does regular AEF rotations and they participate in FLAG's, etc.

Having said that, I think there are more things to consider besides just hours. I racked up a ton of hours bringing jets to and from the states when I was at Lakenheath, but I didn't get much out of those sorties. What you do get a lot out of is the 0.7 clean BFM hops. As said before, hours does not (in a fighter) = a good (fighter) pilot.

[Guest prazors]

0.7??!! WTF?! I hope that doesn't include taxi-ing the airplane, cause if it does then that sucks.

[ 02. March 2006, 01:05: Message edited by: prazors ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by prazors:

0.7??!! WTF?! I hope that doesn't include taxi-ing the airplane, cause if it does then that sucks.

No, that is brake release to touchdown (+5). Depending on the location of your MOA, that's probably 25-30 minutes of turn-and-burn time.

[ 02. March 2006, 04:03: Message edited by: Hacker ]

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by Bergman:

Just because the heavy guys make flying across the pond look easy, doesn't mean it is.

While I agree with your core argument of quality vs. quantity (I've known several 3000 hour pilots who were complete fools in the jet), I think there are a lot of things heavies do on a daily basis that fighter guys underestimate. Having flown with 30+ former A-7/F-16 guys for years now, I've heard the phrase, "This shit is a lot tougher than it looks" many, many times during our simpleton tanker debriefs.

Berg,

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that your job is a cake walk. I know there is a lot of coordinating with the 6-9 radios, constanly moving fuel around to CG, etc. I'm just saying, for example, a fighter guy gets more out of flying a .9 BFM then getting drug across the pond, just like I would assume you guys could get more quality training from maybe doing some AAR in a CONUS track, then having extra gas to beat up the pattern, shoot approaches, etc, then the one to a full stop you get after crossing the pond.

Not sure, just my thoughts.

Hoser

[ 02. March 2006, 12:12: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[B-O-double-Z]

Wicked27,

I think you've been given some bad info. I'll try to address some of your questions.

After doing some searches, looks like AD fighter pilots rack around 300 hours a year (typically)?

300 Hours a year in fighters was a norm 15 years ago.

Today, I'd plan on 150-250 for a guy in active duty. Part-time in the Guard/Reserves, maybe 80-150. Guard/Reserve "bum" varies, possibly 200-250. As a full-time Reserve FTU instructor, I fly about 250, which is more than most guys I know (and most guys in my unit).

From what I understand, a guard bum could rack around 100 hours during a year of typical guard weekend duty?

There is more to it than "Guard Weekend Duty." Your absolute minimum amount of participation will also include 48 additional Training Periods (TPs) with a minimum length of 4 hours each, and 15 other days of active duty status. The "one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer" does't apply to being a pilot in the Guard/Reserves. I'd plan on a minimum of 6 days per month average.

I basically want to fly as much as I can, and was led to believe a guard fighter bum could bum his way up to around 500 hrs a year if he hung around the squadron all day?...or is that just being active duty guard?

Not a f*cking chance in hell for a fighter pilot. If you are looking for 500hr/year, go fly C-130s.

If your motivation for asking about hours is to get to the airlines as quick as you can...that's a bad reason for wanting to be a military pilot.

But...it is no sin to want to fly as much as possible. As a young fighter pilot, you need to be getting as much air under your butt as you can. It just won't be as much as you've been lead to believe.

[Guest Hydro130]

Thanks BOZZ, well said...

This isn't a "who's wang is bigger" thing.

Hours don't equal competence/qualification. Heavies get more because of the mish, and that same reason is why fighters get less.

That (hours), in and of itself, doesn't equate to jacksh*t in the realm of how good of a pilot you are.

Hoser nailed it (sts), as much as I hate to admit ... Although I have quite a few hours under my belt, I can't claim that the VAST majority of it was quality training (crossing the pond, etc), which I expect the fighter guys' time is for the most part...

Experience (not 'hours') defines a pilot!

My $0.02....

Cheers, Hydro

[EvilEagle]

Originally posted by Hacker:

No, that is brake release to touchdown (+5). Depending on the location of your MOA, that's probably 25-30 minutes of turn-and-burn time.

[Guest Wicked27]

Really great responses, I appreciate everyone's comments, helps me out a lot in making a decision which way to go.

Not sure if I stated, but I have no interest in flying airlines or cargo, just interested in flying fighters, maybe even instructing. Have friends that fly C-17's, really cool stories and I admire their mission, but it doesn't fit my aggressive and destructive personality.

One last question, if I stole a UPT slot from the guard, could I still become an FTU instructor?...or is that more of an active duty FTU transition to guard?

[Guest prazors]

Originally posted by EvilEagle:

Which can mean as little as 5-7 mins of actual "turning/burning" for a 0.7

But, at least you have a chance at a 4 hour debrief for your 5 mins of BFM! [/QB]

yea, I just think that its a bummer that for such an awesome aircraft (fighters) you only get to fly it for a short time. I guess they don't want someone just putting around in a million dollar aircraft doing nothing.

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by prazors:

yea, I just think that its a bummer that for such an awesome aircraft (fighters) you only get to fly it for a short time. I guess they don't want someone just putting around in a million dollar aircraft doing nothing. [/QB]

[scoobs]

In the Guard is there a reason why hours have gone so low? Is it due to budgeting? And can you volunteer to deploy which could lead to more hours?

[ 02. March 2006, 15:00: Message edited by: scoobs ]

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by Fury220:

Yup. Even more than FAIPs do.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

I've seen FAIP's do 800 hours in a year.

800 a year? I was single during my FAIP tour and vol'd for every flight I could get my hands on. Student XC's, NASCAR flybys, Airshows, pick up broke jets once they were fixed, etc. My record was 8 straight weekends in a row XC, and I was not even close to 800 in a year. I finished my 3 yr tour with just over 1,000.

Assuming 20 work days in a month x 12 months, said FAIP would have to triple turn every day and average a 1.15 ASD.

Hoser

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Hoser:

Berg,

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that your job is a cake walk. I know there is a lot of coordinating with the 6-9 radios, constanly moving fuel around to CG, etc. I'm just saying, for example, a fighter guy gets more out of flying a .9 BFM then getting drug across the pond, just like I would assume you guys could get more quality training from maybe doing some AAR in a CONUS track, then having extra gas to beat up the pattern, shoot approaches, etc, then the one to a full stop you get after crossing the pond.

Not sure, just my thoughts.

Hoser

Ok...I understand what you were getting at now ...I originally thought you were trying to compare the two (fighters vs. heavies) and, of course, had to stand up for my bro's. :D

Now that I know what you were saying, I agree. I can definitely see how a BFM hop would be much better than a 6.9 to Lakenheath, just like we'd get more from a 2.5 hour pattern-only sortie (like mine tonight, for instance!) than a 6.9 to EGUN. That's not to say we (herbs) can't learn a lot on pond crossings...they're somewhat boring, but it seems there always something new/different to learn even on the simple ones.