PME and Career advice

[Ram]

Harvey - I didn't realize you are an 11F. Disregard everything after hello, plan on vanilla ACSC, and expect a quick turn back to the jet afterward.

Because of the staff overhead, RAS/PAS ain't gonna happen for 11Fs anytime soon. I might be one of the last for a while.

Who knows if my "RAS payback" has been delayed or permanently cancelled. Time will tell, but I'm not complaining. I wasn't looking forward to staff anyway.

For what it's worth, you don't really know how awesome it is to breathe air in a fighter squadron until you leave it for a while. Can't wait to go back. Although school has been relatively fun (and definitely NOT boring or a waste of time), the rest of the world just pales in comparison to working in the CAF.


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[matmacwc]

9 hours ago, Ram said:

You know I'm going to a squadron in Korea, right? 


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I forgot, I do apologize.  Slap SongTon Sally on the ass for me

[Stitch]

2 hours ago, matmacwc said:

I forgot, I do apologize.  Slap SongTon Sally on the ass for me

Or is it A-town Annie? 

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, Stitch said:

Or is it A-town Annie? 

No

[Ram]

Or is it A-town Annie? 

Songtan Sally has no rivals, dude.


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[panchbarnes]

"The DT identified a significant candidate shortfall, which resulted in the inclusion of the 2007 YG during the candidate boarding process. As a result, all eligible 2007 Major selects were boarded during the DT. The final step in being selected as an O-4 leadership candidate is to submit Statements of Intent.

You are receiving this message because you are eligible to be an O-4 leadership candidate. As such, you need to submit a Statement of Intent NLT 14 November 16. The DT was impressed with the 2007 YG as they scored records..."

We are officially broken...

Edited November 4, 2016 by panchbarnes

[tac airlifter]

Can you provide context for that message?  I'm confused.

[Guest ThatGuy]

I am prior with a short tour to Osan AB Korea back in 2000 during my enlisted days. I have followed this forum throughtout my career. I was just offered the bonus and I have 3 short tours under my belt. One to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Korea. I am on the fence about taking the money with 4 years until I can officially retire. I will have to serve an additional two years if I take the bonus. Not to mention, I have read in this forum if you take the bonus, you have signed your ticket for a 365. Everyone said I am crazy not to take the money. Money doesnt always mean happiness. I am not married and I dont have kids. I was also told I could probably make Lt Col. Please advise, because I am unsure about the bonus and even doing ACSC via correspondence. I doubt I will become a Lt Col, simply because I dont have any mentorship. I have fought to come this far from making SrA BTZ, SSgt first time, and major first time. 

[panchbarnes]

4 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Can you provide context for that message?  I'm confused.

My bad.  I am not going to post the e-mail, but essentially the intel DT boards candidates every year for the various intel leadership slots out there.  You are supposed to submit a SOI to indicate whether or not you want to be boarded for a leadership job (which can lead to career advancement), but my guess is that the 06 YG didn't have enough O-4s and/or people are turning down the leadership opportunities en masse.  As a result, the DT boarded all 07 YG selects (along w/ the 06 YG) despite the fact they haven't had a chance to submit a SOI.  So board the candidate first and then ask them whether or not they are interested.

[ThreeHoler]

1) What do you want? That's the key advice I would give you. Figure that out and base your decision on that information.
2) Do you want to retire the day you hit 20? Yes? Don't take the bonus, since it keeps you in roughly a year and change past that date.
3) Are you planning on staying past 20 as long as you like what you are doing? What if you don't like what you are doing? Can you tolerate another 179 or 365? Do you want the money? Yes to all of those? Take the bonus.
There is no correlation or data to support taking the bonus results in a person getting a 179/365. AFPC may be tone deaf, but they're not nefariously watching for bonus contracts and then correlating them and handing out bad deals specifically to those people. You are not more likely to get a 179/365 because you sign the bonus, you just don't get to 7-day opt if you signed a longer ADSC. If you get promoted to Lt Col or you PCS somewhere else, you're still going to get a 2 or 3 year added ADSC.

You can still opt out but can't separate until the ADSC is up. AFPC can still send you on the 179/365 if you have more than that time left on your commitment.


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[ClearedHot]

As usual Beerman has some sage advice, you really have to answer question #1 before wasting any brain bytes on the other stuff.

I would suggest you ask yourself where you want to be in ten years and work backwards from there.  If your end state is an airline job then mathematically and economically you would be best served to retire as soon as possible, line numbers are everything at the airlines and getting the the airlines a two years sooner could make a HUGE difference in quality of life. 

It makes me sick to my stomach to hear you doubt you'll make Lt Col because you don't have any mentorship, the system is completely broken when the average bro feels like this.  Given the growing shortage of AF pilots, I would think most will make Lt Col, it appears the pilot exodus is accelerating at all levels.  I just heard the promotion opportunity to O-6 on the next board has been raised to 55%.  Given other indicators I think other promotion rates will increase as well. 

In a perfect world, where are in you in ten years?

[matmacwc]

Hookers and blow

[tac airlifter]

44 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

In a perfect world, where are in you in ten years?

Drinking bourbon from the skulls of vanquished enemies after a day of strafing downtown Raqqa in my open canopy P-51.  Obviously.

[propflux]

13 hours ago, BeerMan said:

If you get promoted to Lt Col or you PCS somewhere else, you're still going to get a 2 or 3 year added ADSC.

AFI 36-2501:

3.15. Active Duty Service Commitment for Promotions. No Active Duty Service Commitment will be incurred for officer promotions

This pub is dated 2004.  Has something changed?  I might need to start looking into the "Declining a promotion" section.

 

[sqwatch]

Drinking bourbon from the skulls of vanquished enemies after a day of strafing downtown Raqqa in my open canopy P-51.  Obviously.

Fvck yes


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[Spoo]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:38 AM, Champ Kind said:

20 hours ago, slick999 said:

I was also told I could probably make Lt Col. Please advise, because I am unsure about the bonus and even doing ACSC via correspondence. I doubt I will become a Lt Col, simply because I dont have any mentorship.

 

12 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It makes me sick to my stomach to hear you doubt you'll make Lt Col because you don't have any mentorship, the system is completely broken when the average bro feels like this. 

 

I don't know CH, that's an odd thing for the average bro to say (no offense Slick). Perhaps he's using the term "mentorship" and referring to advocacy? Either way, I'm fairly certain the lack of a mentor or advocate will not adversely affect your chances of making O-5. If you have your AAD and IDE complete, I believe the I/APZ O-5 promotion percentage is in the high 90s (and it has been for a few years now).

[ClearedHot]

On 11/5/2016 at 0:33 AM, slick999 said:

You have to be a Lt Col for 3 years in order to receive the retirement benefits of the rank.

What "retirement benefits" come with the rank Lt Col? 

It has zero impact on your retirement pay which is a straight line calculation of the average of your top three years of pay. 

The only impact is on your blue ID card where it says rank.  I remember a philosophical discussion last year among a few bros who pinned on O-6 but wanted to bail before wearing it for three years, one wanted to retire as an O-6 because he perceived a post-AF career advantage, the others were going to the airlines.  I told them the only real impact of retiring as a Lt Col was you couldn't call protocol to get a DV room on base or park in the reserved parking at the Commissary/BX...which ironically at Hurlburt has now been converted to "E-3 and below parking" to complete the pussification of the Air Force.

I pinned on O-6 at 19.5 years and stayed until 26, looking back I wish I had punched at 20.  Answer question #1 and do the math, do NOT be afraid of the next chapter.

Edited November 6, 2016 by ClearedHot

[Guest ThatGuy]

5 hours ago, Spoo said:

I don't know CH, that's an odd thing for the average bro to say (no offense Slick). Perhaps he's using the term "mentorship" and referring to advocacy? Either way, I'm fairly certain the lack of a mentor or advocate will not adversely affect your chances of making O-5. If you have your AAD and IDE complete, I believe the I/APZ O-5 promotion percentage is in the high 90s (and it has been for a few years now).

I mean mentorship period. I have seen guys who got fighters passed over twice for major. I can promise you it was due to lack of mentorship. Nobody taught these guys and one female (heavy pilot) anything. She made major after her second look.  I was lucky to have a higher ranking individual in my community I flew in Iraq with provide some mentorship and a few of the guys here in this forum. My PRF looked pretty good thanks to that mentor and a few guys here. The PRF was hardly touched aside from the WG/CC adding something to the first line.

I gathered from this article that certain groups are lacking the necessary mentorship period. 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/race-and-the-air-force-the-truth-about-how-minorities-get-promoted

Since I am older than the officers I referred to earlier, I learned to ask people for advice. I can only assume they never asked questions about what it takes to get promoted. During my enlisted time, I never had to ask for mentorship. Mentorship was pretty consistent since I was being groomed. 

One of my LT's who is a captain now told me he learned how to lead and mentor people from when I was his Flt/CC. His words made me feel proud because this is how mentorship is supposed to work. "Pay it forward."

Edited November 5, 2016 by slick999

[JS]

21 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

What "retirement benefits" come with the rank Lt Col? 

...the only real impact of retiring as a Lt Col was you couldn't call protocol to get a DV room on base

Ha.  But of course, you can just use :30 of your airline salary to pay for the most expensive room downtown instead of staying on base on the occasions that you need a place to stay in a military town.  But that's another story.  

CH - what airline did you wind up with?    

Edited November 6, 2016 by ClearedHot

[ClearedHot]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:02 AM, slick999 said:

I mean mentorship period. I have seen guys who got fighters passed over twice for major. I can promise you it was due to lack of mentorship...My PRF looked pretty good thanks to that mentor and a few guys here. The PRF was hardly touched aside from the WG/CC adding something to the first line.

I think you are confusing mentorship with advocacy and sponsorship. 

When you say your "PRF looked pretty good"...I hope you mean because you had a record of superb performance, stratifications, contribution...not that actual way the PRF was written.  Your tone seems to indicate otherwise, as in your mentor showed you how to write a grammatically perfect draft for your supervisor.

I am not trying to be an asshole and yes I get it, there are still some lazy supervisors out there who take a "draft" OPR or PRF and push it forward, but the rules have become so extreme with regard to how things are worded, quoted, documented...this is really commander business and has zero to do with mentoring.  Yes your mentor may help you work through goals and important boxes that must be checked for promotion, but there is FAR more to it.

My concept of mentoring and what I tried to do for many people over many years was provide LIFE and Career advice that often included a dose of painful feedback.  Mentoring is often more about listening than speaking and while the advice may focus on building a successful career, it should not be the only intent.  I've mentored good folks through very bad times including divorce, a death in the family, PTSD and just dealing with the normal stresses of life.  I escorted a very good friend to mental health when he discovered his wife was cheating on him and sat there with him for hours, she was his world and it took him down at the knees, thankfully he recovered.  I've wept with parents as they processed the loss of a child.  And sadly, I've sat with a son as he processed the death of his father.  Mentoring is SO much more than career advice.

I'll get off my high-horse now because trust me, I have fucked up just as much as I've gotten right, I just have very strong feelings on the subject mainly because any success I had as an aviator was because of two people who mentored me and demanded I be a better person and aviator.  Mentorship is not perfect and sadly mentors can fail...sometimes miserably.  I counted Baba Rand as a mentor for many years and when it counted most, he wasn't there.

Maybe instead of asking if the system needs more mentorship, we should all just go out and do it.

Edited November 6, 2016 by ClearedHot

[Homestar]

[pbar]

The other half of mentoring is the person being mentored has to been willing to listen and apply the advice they received.  I got some great mentoring from a 1-star (then BGen Keltz) but like a dumbass, I didn't listen and now I'll retire as an O-5 instead of as an O-6...  I've always tried to mentor people coming up behind up and help them learn from my mistakes but the "take-the-advice" rate only seems to be about 50/50.

[Guest ThatGuy]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I think you are confusing mentorship with advocacy and sponsorship. 

When you say your "PRF looked pretty good"...I hope you mean because you had a record of superb performance, stratifications, contribution...not that actual way the PRF was written.  Your tone seems to indicate otherwise, as in your mentor showed you how to write a grammatically perfect draft for your supervisor.

I am not trying to be an asshole and yes I get it, there are still some lazy supervisors out there who take a "draft" OPR or PRF and push it forward, but the rules have become so extreme with regard to how things are worded, quoted, documented...this is really commander business and has zero to do with mentoring.  yes your mentor may help yo work through goals and important boxes that must be checked for promotion, but there is FAR more to it.

My concept of mentoring and what I tried to do for many people over many years was provide LIFE and Career advice that often included a dose of painful feedback.  Mentoring is often more about listening than speaking and while the advice may focus on building a successful career, it should not be the only intent.  I've mentored good folks through very bad times including divorce, a death in the family, PTSD and just dealing with the normal stresses of life.  I escorted a very good friend to mental health when he discovered his wife was cheating on him and sat there with him for hours, she was his world and it took him down at the knees, thankfully he recovered.  I've wept with parents as they processed the loss of a child.  And sadly, I've sat with a son as he processed the death of his father.  Mentoring is SO much more than career advice.

I'll get off my high-horse now because trust me, I have fucked up just as much as I've gotten right, I just have very strong feelings on the subject mainly because any success I had as an aviator was because of two people who mentored me and demanded I be a better person and aviator.  Mentorship is not perfect and sadly mentors can fail...sometimes miserably.  I counted Baba Rand as a mentor for many years and when it counted most, he wasn't there.

Maybe instead of asking if the system needs more mentorship, we should all just go out and do it.

Your analysis about my PRF mentoring session is about as wrong as watching a WNBA game for sheer excitement. 

I have never in my 10 years of Army bratting, 16 years of the Air Force, and one joint assignment ever heard any Navy, Army, Marine, or AF leader reference mentorship the way you have. You don't mentor someone through a divorce, death, or cheating spouse. You help those individuals or find someone who can help them.  People in those circumstances are not looking for a mentor and I can speak from experience after a loved one passed away.

I am going to be honest. Your mentoring sessions sound like a Beavis & Butthead marathon. It's pointless if you are doing all the talking and not listening to the individual. That is the problem with some of the leaders today, they don't listen! Keep "mentoring" your way as people run for the door from the AF because you don't want to listen to anyone. Unless I ask a supervisor for his/her thoughts on life, I don't want you wasting both of our time. We do not all come from the same background. I promise you cant tell me how to avoid being shot, robbed, or pulled over by cops while visiting relatives in the projects of Chicago. You have not walked a mile in my shoes. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by slick999

[Learjetter]

On the other hand...I got sage counsel from a trusted Wing CV when I was finishing UPT, then again as a young Major-select. Had I followed those mentors directions, I probably would've still made O6 and had high profile jobs and school along the way. As it was, I chose to follow my personal desires (no staff, no school, no Phoenix Eagle) keep flying and choose locations and jobs I liked and made a difference doing (in my mind, at least).

Mentors should show you the normal glidepath, but they also owe you at least ATIS at the alternates.

I tried to illustrate normal paths, then get the truth of my mentoree's desires, then advise on how to make each of those things happen...and let the choice be theirs, then I pushed in that direction.

[ClearedHot]

16 minutes ago, slick999 said:

I am going to be honest. Your mentoring sessions sound like a Beavis & Butthead marathon. It's pointless if you are doing all the talking and not listening to the individual. That is the problem with some of the leaders today, they don't listen! Keep "mentoring" your way as people run for the door from the AF because you don't want to listen to anyone.

Apparently someone should mentor you on basic reading comprehension.  

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

 Mentoring is often more about listening than speaking and while the advice may focus on building a successful career, it should not be the only intent.