Flyover/flyby Q&A

[Toro]

Stupidity from all sides on this one. I think the story is crap, but the "officials" are doing a crappier job of justifying it.

"We have this mission to bring the story of the Air Force to people who may not have an Air Force base near them"

Vegas to Florida just for a flyby is excessive. You don't need the Thunderbirds to perform at Daytona when the Vipers from Shaw (or just about any base in the US since they're all closer than Nellis) can do it. It'd be different if this was an airshow with a full-up demonstration, but $80,000 for a five second event?

Officials also insist that flyovers don't cost taxpayers any additional money, because each flyover counts as a training flight and comes out of already existing training budgets and schedules.

Bullshit. Yes, it comes of out existing training budgets and schedules, but those flights come from somewhere. In your average squadron, a four-ship flyby comes at the expense of a four-ship upgrade. If the flybys are done during outside of the normal flying week (weekends), the sorties are still factored into the flying hour program. As afnav mentioned, I have seen flybys accomplished at the tail end of sorties, but I would certainly not say "almost always." I did three flybys in the T-38 and three in the F-15 and none were in conjunction with a training sortie.

"Baloney," said Winslow Wheeler, an analyst with the Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C. "It's atrocious training. They're flying from Point A to Point B.

Copy - that's what the fat kids should log as training, not fighters.

That's what pilots call 'converting gas to noise.' "

Yeah, that's exactly what we call it. Dickhead.

The Orlando Sentinel investigation shows...the vast majority of those requests are deemed eligible...Little League games...it's up to individual teams or leagues to find available squadrons to perform the flyby.

I looked for the AFI that governs flyby requests and approval. I couldn't find it, but I know the Orlando Sentinel is out to lunch. Having read the AFI, coordinated, requested, and flown in many flybys, I know that - at least on the Air Force side - the approval and coordination is anything but easy and they don't task individuals to 'find available squadrons'.

The stadium's roof was closed. No one could see the U.S. Navy's Blue Angels overhead. And it was so loud inside that no one could even hear the jets. But the almost 100 million watching on TV did get to see them for about four seconds.

A flyover for an enlosed stadium? I gotta say that's just retarded.

It's a flyover - it's great promotion for the military. It seems outlandlish when you list the prices of all these flybys, but how about some responsible reporting here with a percentage of cost that a flyby makes up in the overall daily cost for the military. I'm going to guess that a four-ship flyby comprises about 0.001% of the average US military's daily flying cost. Relatively speaking, it's not that much. You don't hear people bitching about the cost to fly aircraft all over the country and world for airshows - it's achieving the same purpose.

Orlando Sun - STFU and go find some real news.

Military spokespeople - Stop trying to justify this with BS excuses about training and people who don't have AF bases nearby.

[Steve Davies]

A flyover for an enlosed stadium? I gotta say that's just retarded.

Toro

Interesting post and some great insight, but I don't agree with you on this one remark.

The Navy was opening a national event that is now world-famous (the BBC even televised it live, and hardly anyone here even knows how to play American Football) and reaches an audience far in excess of those sitting in the actual stadium.

Closing the roof meant that, what? some 60,000 people didn't see them? But going ahead with the flyby regardless meant that another 100,000,000 did. Putting that into 'sensible reporting terms', that means the Navy expended 0.00036 cents per viewer. Nowhere else are they going to get such cheap advertising to such a captive audience.

[ClearedHot]

Military Flybys are worth ten times the cost.

As has been pointed out, great advertising, but more importantly, they remind Americans that we need a strong military.

[stract]

so, the DLOs for any given fly-by aren't very grandiose, but there is ALWAYS some training benefit when you go out to fly. Whether it's just getting more of a feel for your aircraft, getting more comforatble flying in close formation (core pilot skillz), more comfortable talking to ATC and flying at the same time, or recovering with an instrument approach to get more proficient with IFR regimes, there is ALWAYS a benefit to flying vs not flying at all.

When we go do a static somewhere or an airshow, whatever, we get cross country experience, flying in the IFR structure experience (something we don't do much of otherwise), working with the crew, etc etc.

[Bluto]

I wasn't at Daytona but watching it on TV you could see the Thunderbirds do more than one pass. You could hear them during the interviews after the anthem and see people still looking up. It was the first time the Thunderbirds flew over Daytona and it was also the 50th running of the race. They were there at the track during race week and even gave a ride to a driver and broadcaster.

Funny thing is, the Air Force car didn't even qualify!

[Flare]

Bullshit. Yes, it comes of out existing training budgets and schedules, but those flights come from somewhere. In your average squadron, a four-ship flyby comes at the expense of a four-ship upgrade. If the flybys are done during outside of the normal flying week (weekends), the sorties are still factored into the flying hour program. As afnav mentioned, I have seen flybys accomplished at the tail end of sorties, but I would certainly not say "almost always." I did three flybys in the T-38 and three in the F-15 and none were in conjunction with a training sortie.

Toro

Haven't seen the fighter side of this yet, but back in white jets, all our flyovers were done while accomplishing formation and/or navigation CT squares. As IPs we were allowed XX CT sorties a quarter. If I spent them flying to Vegas to booze and gamble all weekend, or if I spent them to go to XYZ airshow or sporting event and do a flyby, it cost the AF the same amount of money. Come to think of it, most times at the airshow we didn't have to pay for gas or billeting, so it actually cost the AF less money...

[PirateAF]

"Baloney," said Winslow Wheeler, an analyst with the Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C. "It's atrocious training. They're flying from Point A to Point B.

Copy - that's what the fat kids should log as training, not fighters.

Toro,

I thought you were making some insightful comments on this until you had to throw in some heavy bashing.

Just for the record, the only "kids" who log A->B as training are UPT studs doing cross countries...

Us "fat kids" in AMC don't log training from A->B around OIF/OEF. We DO log combat time.

[Toro]

Okay, don't get me wrong. I'm obviously not against flying, flybys, cross-countries or good deals. I'm just against people talking out their a$$es, which both sides were doing in this situation.

so, the DLOs for any given fly-by aren't very grandiose, but there is ALWAYS some training benefit when you go out to fly. Whether it's just getting more of a feel for your aircraft, getting more comforatble flying in close formation (core pilot skillz), more comfortable talking to ATC and flying at the same time, or recovering with an instrument approach to get more proficient with IFR regimes, there is ALWAYS a benefit to flying vs not flying at all.

I don't disagree on flybys, but don't try to sell me a flyby as valuable CT training for a fighter guy. Getting more of a feel for the aircraft? I do that every day...don't need a flyby to help me. Close formation? I can practice that going to and from the area and coming up initial. More comfortable talking to ATC? No way...ATC is ATC. Recovering to an instrument approach? Well, that's just right out - if the weather is good enough to do a flyby, you probably don't need to recover to an instrument approach.

back in white jets, all our flyovers were done while accomplishing formation and/or navigation CT squares. As IPs we were allowed XX CT sorties a quarter. If I spent them flying to Vegas to booze and gamble all weekend, or if I spent them to go to XYZ airshow or sporting event and do a flyby, it cost the AF the same amount of money. Come to think of it, most times at the airshow we didn't have to pay for gas or billeting, so it actually cost the AF less money...

There's a difference. In grey jets (at least in Strike Eagles), we don't have too many CT XC opportunities. I went XC almost every weekend as a T-38 IP. I went on about one XC a year in the F-15E. You have your choice of XC opportunities in white jets - I volunteered for all my flybys and used my CT squares to go. In the F-15E, I volunteered for one flyby (Tampa Bay Bucs flyby) for which I only logged RAP squares (same as any daily flight) and I was 'voluntold' for the other two.

I thought you were making some insightful comments on this until you had to throw in some heavy bashing.

Just for the record, the only "kids" who log A->B as training are UPT studs doing cross countries...

Us "fat kids" in AMC don't log training from A->B around OIF/OEF. We DO log combat time.

Chill. It was a saracastic remark to a douchebag "analyst with the Center for Defense Information" who felt the authority to categorize pilots, their training, and speak for us on behalf of what we call "converting gas to noise." He made an idiotic remark, that was my point.

Again, here's the point. Flybys are not valuable training for pilots. Can I hone my skills for shacking timing? Sure. But I'd take a 4-ship SAT sortie with a +/- 10 second TOT any day for the sake of training. Would I rather do a Daytona flyby, land, and get to the track by the 25th lap so I can schmooze with the crowd and be a hero? Hell yeah (and I've done it).

Flybys are valuable to the military.

Relatively speaking, they do not cost too much money

But they are not valuable training. Period dot.

[busdriver]

Toro, I have to agree. Flybys and whatnot make for generally shitty training. Can you accomplish some training? Sure, but you'd get better training doing whatever it is your particular airframe does normally.

[Toro]

Speaking of Bucs flybys, this here makes it well worth the cost.

And if you want to talk about military presence, how about when the receiver scores a touchdown, hands off the ball to a pilot in the end zone, then salutes him and runs back onto the field?

Jurevicius hands off ball to pilot

[Gravedigger]

And if you want to talk about military presence, how about when the receiver scores a touchdown, hands off the ball to a pilot in the end zone, then salutes him and runs back onto the field?

Jurevicius hands off ball to pilot

That's just f*cking outstanding!!

Tampa Bay must have a lot of flyovers. I was just looking at pictures from an ENJJPT T-37 flyover in November.

[Guest auwso]

I was wondering if anyone knew how to find out if a fly-by was scheduled for sporting events. I have a friend that asked about the Auburn game this weekend and told him I try to find out. Thanks in advance for the help.

[slacker]

I was wondering if anyone knew how to find out if a fly-by was scheduled for sporting events. I have a friend that asked about the Auburn game this weekend and told him I try to find out. Thanks in advance for the help.

The SAF/PA Website has all eligible events for aerial support by the AF. (got to have a password). The Auburn game is not listed for the weekend. (that doesn't mean the Marines/Army/Navy won't flyover). The Auburn Homecoming game is on the AF website with no voluteers so far. I'd like to do it, since I'm a AU grad- heck, I could even get an AU grad copilot. But doing a C-130 flyby is like is like showing up to the party with the fat chick- no matter how cool you think you look, well, you get the point.

WAR EAGLE!!!!

[Guest thefranchise]

the 19AF Site maintains a list of AETC approved and projected flyovers. You'll need a CAC (sts)

https://afkm.wpafb.af.mil/

[BADFNZ]

the 19AF Site maintains a list of AETC approved and projected flyovers. You'll need a CAC (sts)

https://afkm.wpafb.af.mil/

I've been looking on this site for a while and haven't found where the list is. Any help? PM me if need be. I am a Longhorn season ticket holder and have been looking for something like this for a while.

[Toro]

Revival for a cool video that was sent to me.

NFL flyby video.

There's a cool blurb in there about Derrick Thomas's dad (whose father was KIA in Vietnam). While I normally hate ties to 9/11, the last 30 seconds is cool.

[Guest whyme?]

WOW didn't make the "start your engines" time. Just joshing my viper bro's Im sure they had to hold somewhere for something. Plus they need all the gas they can get.

[BQZip01]

https://3cb.blessed.net/tbirdsatbowl.wmv

ninja'd from another forum

props to the TBirds for shacking that one (I could comment about being a second or two late, but that's a B.S. reason to dog someone on such a fine performance)

[BQZip01]

Read my post. I was joking. I said " I am guessing they had to hold somewhere for something" Having done one or two myself. I know how hard it is. Especially when its completely out of your control. Just having fun. My bad.

Edit: misspelled done, lol

What to do when late (reason really isn't important): push it up...

Edited June 15, 2009 by BQZip01

[Guest whyme?]

What to do when late (reason really isn't important): push it up...

+1

When TNT gives a 2 sec tape of the 180th Flyby, and they still weren't over stadium, then cut to engines start. I don't know, tell ATC you need to be released, just b/c you are told SB, you are aware you can request again??? Usually ATC is pretty cool about it as it was COORDINATED prior.

Or we can keep making excuses. But I have seen guys #@$ all over other airframes that are late.

[OverTQ]

Understanding that fly by's at 140kts are different than fly by's a 300kts or more. We were doing a fly by in Houston as part of the NHRA Championship one year. The AF NG unit sent their ground guy with a PRC (wasn't even a 112, older than that, he did have a nice Hawaiian shirt with flip flops for the full professional look). Fortunately our guy had a civilian radio we coughed up the $200 dollars for. So we tried to help out and act for the relay for the Vipers. I passed the TOT. The Viper guy got hung up on the TOT time. Somehow he confused the TOT time with his start run time (maybe TOT means something different to the TX NG). So we come up on our start point at our preset time (I had timed the speeds vs the leg start point) and notify the Vipers. As we are making our run, I am a little busy as lead trying to get the formation right and adjusting our speeds so that we cross the Christmas tree on the mark. Like 30 seconds out I hear, "Hey I am still reading the time of ###". I was a little busy and not sure what I even said back but since we were just off of the mark, I was sure they would not make it. We hit the mark +- 5 seconds and circle for our landing (one of the really cool things about doing flybys in Helicopters). As we were setting down, zoom come the Vipers. Pissed to say the least. Forgetting that I was still on the coordination Freq, I go "Hey what the hell happened to those guys". My questions was followed by a push freq on their part. They had excuse after excuse but they were still 2 mikes late. Fly buys are hard. Especially if the event coordinator does not understand how to time his singer, use GPS time and won’t set a hard time. Another time we were sitting at Ellington Field for a rain delay. Our guy called as told us they were going to start in 15 minutes. No chance in hell of making but Fvk it, let’s go anyway. We made the fastest red con one and blasted out (well blasted for helicopters). Forget the marks and the planning, we put the Christmas Tree in the nav and pulled all the TQ we could get. As we are flying in, they is supposed to be a jumper, I am trying to talk to our ground guy (with the same radio I gave him last year and probably with the same batteries) and all we can hear is static. I kept expecting to vegamatic a skydiver at any moment but we managed to cross the line at the sec (although140kts at 150 AGL makes for a very short surprising fly by). At fly bys you are a hero or a chump. I have been both. But nothing adds the pressure like knowing you’re going to be walking around with the crowd afterwards

Edited March 4, 2010 by OverTQ

[BQZip01]

Also, let's take into account I'm in the BUFF (sts). We can do a flyby, accomplish 7 more hours of various training (on a "normal" sortie), and still land with 100,000 lbs of fuel in the tanks. We have time to kill between training events (tankers, bomb runs, low level routes, pod training, etc), so why not use it for something that Americans like and get to see?

The newspaper article was especially weak on all sides. Public Affairs needs to have a few more aviators to get this kind of crap correct.

[Guest]

The Fred crew did a nice job for the Patriots game today.

My college room mate was at the game and his comments were "Great timing, can't they fly lower?"

[EnriquePallazo]

The Fred crew did a nice job for the Patriots game today.

My college room mate was at the game and his comments were "Great timing, can't they fly lower?"

Skip the first two minutes of the horrible rendition to see it.

https://deadspin.com/5878268/steven-tylers-star+spangled-banner-was-terrible-but-was-it-the-worst-ever

[ak47]

The Fred crew did a nice job for the Patriots game today.

My college room mate was at the game and his comments were "Great timing, can't they fly lower?"

Surely you've heard it fly before. Nobody wants to hear that any louder than they have to.