Advanced Instrument School (AIS)

[Vetter]

Anyone know about this course down at Randolph. I know it's probably gay, but I had a good time down in San Antone during PIT and I'm looking to revisit some hos down there.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

I've been...recent grad about 5 months ago.

EXCELLENT course...esp if you like to find out nit-noid details about IAP's, TERPS, etc.

Highly recommend the class if you can get it - especially if you plan to become a career flyer.

[dmeg130]

One of the best courses the AF has to offer. 3 weeks in San Antonio, sims, and a spatial-d trainer that'll have you flying inverted in the weather. It qualifies you to teach the IRC, looks great on a resume, and gives you immediate cred in a new unit. Have to be an IP to attend, slots get doled out to the MAJCOMs. Bug your training office for a slot.

[Vetter]

Are slots pretty tough to get? FAIPs don't get sh*t in our squadron...

[Ram]

Originally posted by Vetter:

Are slots pretty tough to get? FAIPs don't get sh*t in our squadron...

We had one slot. The email went out, I volunteered, and the slot went to a captain in OGV. (No ill will...he's a buddy of mine...)

"uh...Lt XXXXXX, you want to go? Uh...that's cute..." <that's the impression I got.

Sure, you have to be an IP, but think "MWS IP"

It figures Someone in my SQ leadership actually got upset when I proposed to go T-3 XC somewhere that had only 8000' runways. I guess "Can a FAIP land there" was actually a question tossed around by him at the staff meeting. YGBSM. I didn't know my Form 8 was conditional upon the fact I'd only use 10+K' runways.

I heard that and rolled my eyes so hard my retinas snapped. It goes on and on...

[Guest KoolKat]

I just found out both my FAIPs got thier 1st choices, F-16.

Not that that changes the bull shit about not letting you guys go to this course though.

What would Ops experience give you guys that would enhance this experience?

I just hope none of you guys get shafted on an assignment. I haven't personally seen it happen (yet,) but I wouldn't put anything above possibility.

Haha...I guess since I didn't get FAIPed we could be in the same class...freaky.

BENDY

[ 19. December 2005, 21:16: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Flare]

Fury

Surely by now you have figured out that as a FAIP you are a 2nd rate IP. As a LT & a FAIP, you are a 3rd rate IP.

Myself and another FAIP are both flying commercial to Robins tomorrow to pick up a jet. When I proposed to go out there by myself and fly home solo(to save the AF 800 bucks), I was pretty much laughed at, even though I am experienced and have over 600 Tweet hours.

"Rrrrrriiiiigggghhhtttttt.....you wanna do what?"

[ 19. December 2005, 22:43: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[viperpunk]

Has anyone been to Advanced Instrument School? I'm headed there tommorow but no one can tell me anything about it; I have orders and an airline ticket but that's it. Apparently it has moved from Randolph to OKC but it's not at Tinker, I've heard Will Rogers ANGB....? This is pretty much the most poorly planned TDY that I've ever been on so I'm hoping someone on here has been and can give me some advice on when and where to show up and where to stay. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest Buffdriver]

I think your unit put you a little bit behind the 8 ball. There is a workbook that needs to be accomplished, which you turn in upon arrival and it does take quite a bit of research to accomplish. If I remember correctly, class actually begins on Monday morning, so you probably needed to travel today. I went when it was at Randolph so some things may have changed. One of my buddies just got back from this last class and I put in a call to him and am waiting for him to get back to me. I will post more info when I get it this evening. The course has been temporarily shortened due to the simulators not being up and running yet, but other than that it is approx 8 hours a day of advanced instrument procedures, terps, rules, regs, etc.....so on and so on for 2 weeks. It has moved to Will Rogers and is at the Flight Standards Office building. Where that is...I couldnt tell you, but I should know more a little later. Good luck..will post more for you shortly.

[Guest Cam]

Has anyone been to Advanced Instrument School? I'm headed there tommorow but no one can tell me anything about it; I have orders and an airline ticket but that's it. Apparently it has moved from Randolph to OKC but it's not at Tinker, I've heard Will Rogers ANGB....? This is pretty much the most poorly planned TDY that I've ever been on so I'm hoping someone on here has been and can give me some advice on when and where to show up and where to stay. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'm trying to get a slot to go this winter. As Buffdriver mentioned, there is a workbook. There is also a website that lists all the details regarding where you'll be staying and how you'll be getting to class.

Judging my the time/date stamp of that post, I'm guessing your first day of class was yesterday. Hope you made it ok... Let us know how it goes.

[HerkDerka]

From what I hear, AIS is a great training opportunity.

I've talked over TERPS and such with AIS graduates before and was pretty impressed by what they learned in the course.

HD

[Guest LocoF16]

Just curious, what do they teach you at AIS that you don't already know?

[dmeg130]

You can infer that I think better knowledge of instrument flying helps make you a better pilot, regardless of your airframe. All the fighter dudes that went through AIS with me said they thought it was very valuable. In fact, single-seat guys probably need the HIGHEST level of instrument skills since they don't have somebody to share their workload with them -- thus pilot weather categories. But for those who routinely fly into foreign-controlled airspace or commercial airports, this stuff is a very important part of their mission. Sorry you find that so boring. Stop reading these instrument discussions you so love.

AIS provides a lot of the background knowledge for why we do things the way we do, and how to do it better. It's a great course, well worth the time.

[Vetter]

How does one go about getting selected for AIS?

[pawnman]

Is it a pilot only deal, or do they send navs as well?

[Guest Cam]

How does one go about getting selected for AIS?

There should be someone within your wing, probably in the Ops Group, who is in charge of the IRC program (i.e., the guys who teach your annual hot topics class). I would find out who that is and start with that person. At most bases, slots are given out during a group TRB.

In my case, I'll probably be going because I'm replacing the outgoing OGV pilot (i.e., group stan-eval), and if I'm going to take over as the IRC guy, I should probably be a qualifed IRC instructor, and for that you have to be an AIS graduate...

Edit: pawnman- AIS is a pilot-only deal as far as I know.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Cam

[MD]

AIS lets you become the resident expert and take that UPT and operational knowledge and take it a step further. It allows you to bring that knowledge back and pass it on to the crews, so we don't have another Ron Brown in Dubrovnik or a Jackson Hole incident.

I see the point you're making. However on these examples here, I'm not sure AIS training would've made a difference. These two accidents weren't the result of some cosmic knowlege the crew didn't have; they were failures of extremely basic instrument procedures. Yes, there are many contributing factors to both, but the BL is back to the basics for these crews.

Dubrovnik: Have the right and proper equipment for the approach you're going to attempt, not half-ass it.

Jackson Hole: Know where you're departing out of and the terrain therein, and follow the stated departure procedure.

Both of these accidents were stuff to have been learned in UPT. Both of these were needless tragedies that should be learned from. I'm not knocking AIS, however I don't think AIS training could've necessarily prevented the mistakes made on these ones. The advanced stuff doesn't help if the basics aren't known/followed, IMHO.

[B-O-double-Z]

I'm an A-10 patch wearer and I went to AIS.

When I went, I did so because the unit needed somebody to teach the IRC and because I wanted to go TDY to Randolph for three weeks. I didn't really know or care whether the course was going to be worth a sh!t.

In retrospect, I enjoyed the course, and learned a few things. The best part about it was that the class was diverse. I learned more about how other weapons systems operate, and made some friends and contacts, which was valuable to me.

In my career, I've seen some appallingly bad examples of airmanship from A-10 guys. Some of it had to do with lack of understanding of ATC procedures, and how to manage a formation on an IFR clearance.

I had to teach a safety seminar yesterday (yes...I've been to safety school too, so I guess I'm double-gay). Here are some of the highlights of A-10 crashes for the past 15 years. You can see we aren't immune from bad airmanship or poor instrument skills.

--Pilot takes off on a VFR clearance in poor weather. Can't maintain VMC, so tries switching to an IFR clearance while directing other members of the flight. Becomes spatially disoriented and crashes into the ground. (weapons officer)

--Pilot misses a non-precision approach (radar tape shows that the pilot did a horrible job flying the approach). He holds, they change runways, he comes back in for a precision approach. While on the dogleg, turning to intercept the ILS final, he becomes disoriented and continues turning and does what amounts to a split-S into the ground. (This guy was a high-time A-10 pilot)

--A-10 pilot lands on wet runway. He doesn't seem to be able to stop. Approaching the end of the runway, he ejects. Airplane goes into the infield, still running. Firemen shut down the engines which were running at mid-range. Pilot never pulled them to idle. (fairly low time wingman)

--Pilot compressor stalls engine during Air-to-air engagement. Pilot continues to fly with failed engine for over a minute without knowing his engine is failed (he has his speed-brakes out too, by the way). Finally realizes that the plane isn't flying so well (falling out of the sky) and he now can't get his speed brakes closed (hydraulic system lost with the right engine and not enough air-load on the SBs to get them in with the emergency retract). Pilot ejects. (upgrading weapons officer at Nellis)

--Pilot in good weather at night on NVGs reacts to an in-scenario threat call. While maneuvering defensively, does a split-S into the ground from something like 7-8 thousand feet. Spacial D or loss of the horizon at night on goggles. (mid-time flight lead)

--Pilot loses engine shortly after take-off, rushes back to land without performing the single-engine landing checklist. Stalls aircraft on final. Ejects. (Full Colonel)

--Pilot loses engine on approach Forgets to put speed brakes in while flying on one engine (we fly with speed brakes out normally configured with two engines). Aircraft stalls. Pilot ejects. (high-time weapons officer)

--Pilot loses sight of leader while maneuvering in steep terrain. Instead of calling blind, mashing the throttles to max, and climbing to gain sight, he stays at low altitude, slows down, then takes a wrong turn into a container canyon. Pilots ejects right before the airplane smashes into terrain. (low time pilot)

There are lots more. These of just some of the good ones. I'd say go to every school you can that has to do with flying (especially if the Air Force is paying for it). Fly everything you can get your hands on. Get your civilian ratings even if you have no aspirations of a civilian flying career. You'll learn some things in the process.

If you are going to be a pilot, you might as well be a good one.

[stract]

the few peeps we've sent from Moody to AIS recently learned a lot, but it seems, based on the products they were provided with and then regurgitated to us, that the course spends little (if any at all) time on helicopters and instruments. One guy spent a week going through all the presentations and changing the answers to the correct ones for RW so that he could give us a decent IRC class.

One would think AIS would be able, since their sole mission in life is to make us all better instrument pilots, to provide products to helo drivers for use back at home station with the correct helo-related infomation contained within, since -GASP- the AF flies helos, too, because a lot of our regulations governing instrument flying are different than FW.

Helicopter pilots are people, too!

[/rant]

Edited August 10, 2007 by stract

[viperpunk]

I think everyone's made their respective points....let's go back on topic.

Wait....what was the topic again?

HD

I made it to the class; thanks for the help Buffdriver. There is a workbook and apparently a website. Oh by the way, it's not for fighter guys but we need it to teach IRC. But it has been a capes class for me and shown me that heavy guys fly tough approaches often and have no "get out of jail power" that I have in my aircraft so it makes sense to me why this is a big deal for guys who fly instruments in bad places in bad weather for a living. It's not weapons school, it's only two weeks long. But it's also not the same as what we learned in UPT, because I've never flown an NDB in Africa or a circling approach in South America, but they've never shot AMRAAM or Maverick. We argue all the time at who is better and what is more important but bottom line our communities are just different and impossible to compare.

[Guest Hydro]

I was very excited to go to AIS, but then 911 happened the week before my class was scheduled to start. Slight change of plans then...

I don't think AIS has ever been quite as good since Kevin Jones left his post there years ago, but that whole deal is an interesting story for another day.

If you have the opportunity to attend AIS, then absolutely go do it. Get smarter, be better...

[Guest PilotKD]

Are there prereq's for AIS (besides the workbook)? Do you have to be an IP to go or just pilot wings?

[Herk Driver]

Are there prereq's for AIS (besides the workbook)? Do you have to be an IP to go or just pilot wings?

IIRC, IP.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

No need to be an IP to attend AIS...but I think there is more validity to the course if after the fact in-house IRC is taught by an IP. That being said...

Our last 2 folks in my squadron were SOLID FP/young AC's who had 3 years left on station.

To say that "A-10 dudes" are "VFR or nothing" is f^cking retarded.

"2"...

I've been fortunate enough to see plenty divert to ETAR from Spang when weather dropped below 600-1. However, I've also "witnessed" said aircraft let down a civilian liner into Hahn into the Wx after the civi had electrical/navigational malfunctions.

PWC are for pussies and should only play after a Tact Duty Day....I've always thought.

[Herk Driver]

No need to be an IP to attend AIS...but I think there is more validity to the course if after the fact in-house IRC is taught by an IP. That being said...

Won't argue that you may be able to attend AIS if you aren't an IP, because I can't prove or disprove. However, not only is there more validity if after the fact in-house IRC is taught by an IP, but IRC must be taught by an IP or someone who has been previously qualified as an IP. AFM 11-210 requires it.