USAF Weapons School (WIC) info

[di1630]

Dude, I hate to sound like a dick, but if staying in the viper and going to WIC was realistically in the cards for you, you probably would have stayed in the viper to have a look vs going to AETC.

I only speak this nonsense because when I was in 38s we had a viper guy show up and he'd talk about how he should have gone to WIC, his great UPT and FLUG performance etc. only to get screwed by the VML and get stuck with all us sub-par CAF rejects because AFPC screwed up.

You can imagine how well everyone liked him.

Advice: go to AETC with a great attitude, kick ass, go back to the CAF and climb back on up. 3 yrs goes by quick, and with a good attitude, it can be a very fun and rewarding assignment.

[SnapLock]

3 hours ago, reticulous said:

Thanks, guys. Yeah.. that is what I was afraid of. Super sucks, but better than going to drones (which sounds like it was a real possibility on this VML).

Guard keeps looking better and better.

I agree with what everyone else has said here.  Also, do you understand how the VML process works?  BL: IMO if you were being looked at strongly for WIC your SQ/CC would have said that on your ADP and your OG would have communicated that to your functional.  Be realistic and move forward and do a good job where you are planted and good things will happen.  Unfortunately, the path you want is not what you always get, ESPECIALLY when the Air Force is concerned.  

[Motofalcon]

3 hours ago, SnapLock said:

 Also, do you understand how the VML process works? 

Not to be a jerk, but do YOU know how the vml process has been working lately?  I am good bros with the viper functional, and after many conversations with him, here is some truth data/points to ponder:

In the most recent (summer) VML of 120+ viper drivers, there was ONE ops to ops assignment.  Some B-course, some AGRS, and a lot of UPT/PIT/IFF, but only one CAF to CAF assignment.  I will quote the functional here: "My job is to get you in a fighter squadron, get you experienced, and then get you out to make room for the next crop of FNGs".  This summer the porch will deal with A1's "grand solution" to the viper driver shortage - 69+ b course grads.  By the end of the summer.  New b-coursers can't go to Holloman, can't teach UPT/IFF, or do any of the other 11F required jobs - they can only go to a CAF unit until they are experienced.  So that doesn't leave a whole lot of CAF slots for dudes who want to stay - no matter what your OG says.  You are just a number and as soon as you are experienced, you get to fill all those other jobs.

Now you would say "Well your OG can fight to get you a spot at Holloman or maybe at 422/85 TES as a stepping stone to WIC" to which I would normally agree, however, filling test billets are lower priority than filling UPT/IFF/PIT/B course etc.  They are also being really stupid about the b course spots - they RARELY send viper guys to Luke because Luke is shutting down (eg 2 dudes in the past year and a half).  But they won't send you to Holloman because its not big enough yet, and two vmls ago they sent 25 dudes there, so it's all full.  

On the other hand, talking to a bro at the 85 TES, they just got a new inbound who isn't even an IP.  The 85th didn't ask for him, and don't know why a non-IP was sent there, but now they have to deal with it (ie take away test sorties so they can put him through an IPUG).  Why do I say this?  Because it demonstrates how f*cked the situation is.  I will quote the functional again - "Timing is everything, and it will always trump performance".  

So yeah, maybe this kid does have hands of gold, and maybe his OG did fight for him, but if the spots aren't there (hint, they aren't) there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it.  Or maybe his OG did fight for him for that ONE ops assignment, or that ONE 85 TES job, and he lost out to some other dude.  Doesn't mean he isn't good enough for WIC, maybe his CC just isn't good at fighting for him (a situation I think most here have seen, directly or indirectly).  No reason to sh*t on him.

Oh and all you CAF viper units out there, expect to have an inexperienced ratio approaching 80% by the end of the year - don't worry, AFPC knows about it, they just don't care enough to change their ways.

TL;DR - AFPC is f*cked more than most people realize, and it is definitely going to derail some people's career aspirations through no fault of their own. 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Motofalcon

[Jaded]

Wait, the inexperience problem is going to get WORSE in the f-16 community? The last year has been a constant revolving door of SEFEs 7 day opting and being replaced by LTs. We are so undermanned that people are being recalled from leave to sit SOF. We are double tuning half the people in the afternoon go because it's the only way we can fill the schedule. What is the breaking point? I feel like we are already there. You are telling me it is going to get worse? 

[sqwatch]

The good news is as an attached douchebag I'm flying 10+ times/month!

[Ram]

I hate you Thork. Trade with me.

[HossHarris]

I just 7-day opted an Eilson aggressor gig....see if you can grab it. 

[brabus]

There's also a 7 day opt'd Luke out there, and I'm sure several more similar 7 day opts exist.

On the other hand, talking to a bro at the 85 TES, they just got a new inbound who isn't even an IP.  The 85th didn't ask for him, and don't know why a non-IP was sent there, but now they have to deal with it (ie take away test sorties so they can put him through an IPUG).

That's not happening; your bro has old, inaccurate gouge.  I understand your overall general point and agree VMLs can widely differ with everyone getting a Viper on one and only a couple dudes getting a Viper on the next (thanks to A1 failures non-stop), but in the end, it is a valid statement that if an individual is recognized as a WIC probable, there will be a way to keep that guy in the Viper, including VML slips.  Only shenanigans to the level of TAMI make that a sometimes false statement.  Your standard VML pendulum swing does not.  But, that does not mean said individuals cannot "bloom later" and go to WIC as an "older dude" in the ARC.  It's possible and is done here and there.

[SnapLock]

3 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Not to be a jerk, but do YOU know how the vml process has been working lately?  I am good bros with the viper functional, and after many conversations with him, here is some truth data/points to ponder:

In the most recent (summer) VML of 120+ viper drivers, there was ONE ops to ops assignment.  Some B-course, some AGRS, and a lot of UPT/PIT/IFF, but only one CAF to CAF assignment.  I will quote the functional here: "My job is to get you in a fighter squadron, get you experienced, and then get you out to make room for the next crop of FNGs".  This summer the porch will deal with A1's "grand solution" to the viper driver shortage - 69+ b course grads.  By the end of the summer.  New b-coursers can't go to Holloman, can't teach UPT/IFF, or do any of the other 11F required jobs - they can only go to a CAF unit until they are experienced.  So that doesn't leave a whole lot of CAF slots for dudes who want to stay - no matter what your OG says.  You are just a number and as soon as you are experienced, you get to fill all those other jobs.

Now you would say "Well your OG can fight to get you a spot at Holloman or maybe at 422/85 TES as a stepping stone to WIC" to which I would normally agree, however, filling test billets are lower priority than filling UPT/IFF/PIT/B course etc.  They are also being really stupid about the b course spots - they RARELY send viper guys to Luke because Luke is shutting down (eg 2 dudes in the past year and a half).  But they won't send you to Holloman because its not big enough yet, and two vmls ago they sent 25 dudes there, so it's all full.  

On the other hand, talking to a bro at the 85 TES, they just got a new inbound who isn't even an IP.  The 85th didn't ask for him, and don't know why a non-IP was sent there, but now they have to deal with it (ie take away test sorties so they can put him through an IPUG).  Why do I say this?  Because it demonstrates how f*cked the situation is.  I will quote the functional again - "Timing is everything, and it will always trump performance".  

So yeah, maybe this kid does have hands of gold, and maybe his OG did fight for him, but if the spots aren't there (hint, they aren't) there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it.  Or maybe his OG did fight for him for that ONE ops assignment, or that ONE 85 TES job, and he lost out to some other dude.  Doesn't mean he isn't good enough for WIC, maybe his CC just isn't good at fighting for him (a situation I think most here have seen, directly or indirectly).  No reason to sh*t on him.

Oh and all you CAF viper units out there, expect to have an inexperienced ratio approaching 80% by the end of the year - don't worry, AFPC knows about it, they just don't care enough to change their ways.

TL;DR - AFPC is f*cked more than most people realize, and it is definitely going to derail some people's career aspirations through no fault of their own. 

 

No, I didn't know about all of that going on with the VML.  With that said I wasn't trying to "sh*t" on this guy wanting to go to WIC.  He came on here looking for advice and I was trying to contribute something useful.  In my career I've seen waaayyy too many great dudes get screwed over by their CC and other people who were unwilling to tell them what reality was.  I think that is often a big disservice to good people and they end up getting a huge smack of reality much later than they should and end up bitter.  We should be able to tell people where they stand, especially if they are looking for advice and feedback. I still stand by my assertion that if someone is truly being groomed for WIC that leadership will get them there.  I've seen everything from slips to losing commanders working with gaining commanders to delay a PCS to get dudes to WIC.  If that type of stuff isn't happening either their leadership sucks or the dude isn't getting pushed for WIC.     

[reticulous]

11 hours ago, brabus said:

There's also a 7 day opt'd Luke out there, and I'm sure several more similar 7 day opts exist

 

11 hours ago, HossHarris said:

I just 7-day opted an Eilson aggressor gig....see if you can grab it. 

Thanks for all the feedback.

Sorry to be dumb about this, but are you guys joking about the 7-day opts? I would gladly go anywhere to stay in the jet.

I just really don't know how this whole process works and (probably my fault) haven't gotten as much guidance as I clearly should have. In fact, I was explicitly told by my boss that I shouldn't worry about volunteering for Korea, to stay in the jet. Otherwise I would have gladly volunteered to go there.

Anyway, if this isn't a joke, how do I go about trying to grab one of the 7-day opts? Is there a chance they are still left? 

Thanks again, bros. For the reality checks, too.

Edited April 8, 2016 by reticulous

[Vetter]

It's probably a blessing in disguise.

[Motofalcon]

1 hour ago, SnapLock said:

No, I didn't know about all of that going on with the VML.  With that said I wasn't trying to "sh*t" on this guy wanting to go to WIC.  He came on here looking for advice and I was trying to contribute something useful....

  I think that is often a big disservice to good people and they end up getting a huge smack of reality much later than they should and end up bitter....

 I still stand by my assertion that if someone is truly being groomed for WIC that leadership will get them there.

1) Fair enough. I wasn't trying to sound combative to your point either, just adding my 2 cents to the conversation

2) Agreed. 

3) Agree to disagree.  I know it theoretically *can* happen, I just don't think it does nearly as much as it used to.  Which I blame squarely on AFPC's inability to be flexible and give outsiders (i.e. CAF OGs and sq/ccs) any bit of power or influence. They porch is scrounging (reference all the posts above about dudes 7-day opting) and therefore are in triage mode and don't do a lot of the bro-network wheeling and dealing they used to. 

[Motofalcon]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

That's not happening; your bro has old, inaccurate gouge. 

Well, I hope so - his data is about 72 hours old, and it pisses me off because I was an IP and wanted to go there, but couldn't because filling a PIT slot was higher priority than a test sq job and/or I wasn't good enough/didn't get the push from my leadership (it doesn't hurt my feelings to get honest feedback, but my leadership said I was phenomenal all the way up until the day I walked out the door, so who knows what the truth is). However, to then see that they are getting a non-IP that they didn't interview/request...  It's mainly just my envy speaking, but damn is it frustrating. So I hope it is rectified. 

[brabus]

He hasnt heard the update, but its not a daily conversation topic, so not surprising he hasnt. I'm with you on how much it sucks they fill PIT before they help out test thats nearing 50% manned in vipers. 

Anyway, if this isn't a joke, how do I go about trying to grab one of the 7-day opts? Is there a chance they are still left?

Not a joke, and I'm sure there are more. I would talk to sq/cc and ask him to talk to OG. The OG can call the porch and inquire/push for you to get one of the 7 day opt vipers, if he feels you should be pushed for. I had a buddy years ago who had an IFF assisnment for months and one day it turned into a viper...because so many 7 day opts occured. He didnt even ask to get it changed. 

Have you expressed interest in WIC to your WO, SQ/CC? I suggest you ask both for honest feedback to have an accurate view of your current flying and officer abilities. Sometimes that feedback may be very different than your self assessment. Not saying it is, but its worth finding out. Even if you dont hear what you want, use it as a way to focus how specifically to better yourself on the pilot and officer side.

[reticulous]

On 4/8/2016 at 8:38 AM, brabus said:

I would talk to sq/cc and ask him to talk to OG. The OG can call the porch and inquire/push for you to get one of the 7 day opt vipers, if he feels you should be pushed for. I had a buddy years ago who had an IFF assisnment for months and one day it turned into a viper...because so many 7 day opts occured. He didnt even ask to get it changed.

Thanks. I took your advice and asked around my unit. Local Sq/cc and Og/cc willing to make calls. Og/cc says Wing/cc probably will, too.

It is a long shot now, I guess, but I want to go down fighting.

Edited April 9, 2016 by reticulous

[Dupe]

Some food for thought:

 

Back when I was operational, the guy I viewed as the best pilot in my community was a Ops-UPT-Ops type. I see the WIC guys as getting very burned out very fast. I'd like to see retention rates among patches vice the rest of the CAF ...I'm sure somebody has that stat.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Dupe

[pawnman]

On 4/7/2016 at 5:53 PM, Motofalcon said:

Not to be a jerk, but do YOU know how the vml process has been working lately?  I am good bros with the viper functional, and after many conversations with him, here is some truth data/points to ponder:

In the most recent (summer) VML of 120+ viper drivers, there was ONE ops to ops assignment.  Some B-course, some AGRS, and a lot of UPT/PIT/IFF, but only one CAF to CAF assignment.  I will quote the functional here: "My job is to get you in a fighter squadron, get you experienced, and then get you out to make room for the next crop of FNGs".  This summer the porch will deal with A1's "grand solution" to the viper driver shortage - 69+ b course grads.  By the end of the summer.  New b-coursers can't go to Holloman, can't teach UPT/IFF, or do any of the other 11F required jobs - they can only go to a CAF unit until they are experienced.  So that doesn't leave a whole lot of CAF slots for dudes who want to stay - no matter what your OG says.  You are just a number and as soon as you are experienced, you get to fill all those other jobs.

Now you would say "Well your OG can fight to get you a spot at Holloman or maybe at 422/85 TES as a stepping stone to WIC" to which I would normally agree, however, filling test billets are lower priority than filling UPT/IFF/PIT/B course etc.  They are also being really stupid about the b course spots - they RARELY send viper guys to Luke because Luke is shutting down (eg 2 dudes in the past year and a half).  But they won't send you to Holloman because its not big enough yet, and two vmls ago they sent 25 dudes there, so it's all full.  

On the other hand, talking to a bro at the 85 TES, they just got a new inbound who isn't even an IP.  The 85th didn't ask for him, and don't know why a non-IP was sent there, but now they have to deal with it (ie take away test sorties so they can put him through an IPUG).  Why do I say this?  Because it demonstrates how f*cked the situation is.  I will quote the functional again - "Timing is everything, and it will always trump performance".  

So yeah, maybe this kid does have hands of gold, and maybe his OG did fight for him, but if the spots aren't there (hint, they aren't) there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it.  Or maybe his OG did fight for him for that ONE ops assignment, or that ONE 85 TES job, and he lost out to some other dude.  Doesn't mean he isn't good enough for WIC, maybe his CC just isn't good at fighting for him (a situation I think most here have seen, directly or indirectly).  No reason to sh*t on him.

Oh and all you CAF viper units out there, expect to have an inexperienced ratio approaching 80% by the end of the year - don't worry, AFPC knows about it, they just don't care enough to change their ways.

TL;DR - AFPC is f*cked more than most people realize, and it is definitely going to derail some people's career aspirations through no fault of their own. 

 

The B-1 FTU has received 2 non-instructor pilots as permanent party in the last year.

[Duck]

And it's just the beginning...

[Slander]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

The B-1 FTU has received 2 non-instructor pilots as permanent party in the last year.

Not uncommon in the F-16 world. 4FL will show up, go through a slightly longer IPUG than a previously qualified IP and then start teaching. That's really not a huge deal in my mind. 

[skosh]

^^Same thing in the mudhen.  If you make IP in your first assignment you're pretty much destined for WIC.  4FL = go teach at the FTU, still have a shot at WIC.  2FL/Wingman = ops-to-ops.  The last few VMLs have been very good for staying in the jet.

[pawnman]

19 hours ago, Slander said:

Not uncommon in the F-16 world. 4FL will show up, go through a slightly longer IPUG than a previously qualified IP and then start teaching. That's really not a huge deal in my mind. 

One of ours wasn't even a flight lead, and came to us from an AETC tour.  So, the FTU had to put him through TXC, then FLUG, then FIC.  Meanwhile, we barely have enough sorties to keep flying the students, but we have to burn them to train our newest "instructor".

[Motofalcon]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

One of ours wasn't even a flight lead, and came to us from an AETC tour.  So, the FTU had to put him through TXC, then FLUG, then FIC.  Meanwhile, we barely have enough sorties to keep flying the students, but we have to burn them to train our newest "instructor".

Perfect example of "timing is everything" - I bet if you looked one vml in either direction you'd find someone who meets the requirements to get that assignment, but instead of getting that person, afpc will just get a waiver to whatever that requirement is, send you some one who shouldn't and/or doesn't want to be there, and then you have to pay the price for the porch's mismanagement (non-student lines, etc). This probably belongs in the "what's wrong with the AF thread" but basically this "timing is everything" and AFPC's zero flexibility/ability to forecast personnel needs is slowly(?) breaking the Air Force. 

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Perfect example of "timing is everything" - I bet if you looked one vml in either direction you'd find someone who meets the requirements to get that assignment, but instead of getting that person, afpc will just get a waiver to whatever that requirement is, send you some one who shouldn't and/or doesn't want to be there, and then you have to pay the price for the porch's mismanagement (non-student lines, etc). This probably belongs in the "what's wrong with the AF thread" but basically this "timing is everything" and AFPC's zero flexibility/ability to forecast personnel needs is slowly(?) breaking the Air Force. 

Oh, this isn't even the worst of AFPC's idiocy.  They RIF'd three current, qualified instructor WSOs, two of which were spun up in the latest upgrade (block 16), one of which was an evaluator in OGV.  In return, because our 12B manning was so short, they sent a guy from the Pentagon...who didn't want to come back to Dyess, and who hadn't flown the aircraft in a decade (various Prowler slots and staff tours), and who had to be put through the B-course (didn't even qualify for TXC because he'd been out so long).  Non-mission lead, non-instructor, and he basically hasn't flown since his check ride...thanks, AFPC for all your help!

At least two of our RIF'd IWSOs found their way into the reserve unit.

[magnetfreezer]

27 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Oh, this isn't even the worst of AFPC's idiocy.  They RIF'd three current, qualified instructor WSOs, two of which were spun up in the latest upgrade (block 16), one of which was an evaluator in OGV.  In return, because our 12B manning was so short, they sent a guy from the Pentagon...who didn't want to come back to Dyess, and who hadn't flown the aircraft in a decade (various Prowler slots and staff tours), and who had to be put through the B-course (didn't even qualify for TXC because he'd been out so long).  Non-mission lead, non-instructor, and he basically hasn't flown since his check ride...thanks, AFPC for all your help!

At least two of our RIF'd IWSOs found their way into the reserve unit.

And they tried to send a guy from up north a while ago... he didn't want to move and he told his SQ/CC "if they give me orders to the FTU, I'm getting out"

SQ/CC tells OG/CC "If you give this guy FTU orders, he's getting out"

AFPC gave him FTU orders. He got out. Another mark in the K12B losses column.

 

 

[Motofalcon]

32 minutes ago, magnetfreezer said:

And they tried to send a guy from up north a while ago... he didn't want to move and he told his SQ/CC "if they give me orders to the FTU, I'm getting out"

SQ/CC tells OG/CC "If you give this guy FTU orders, he's getting out"

AFPC gave him FTU orders. He got out. Another mark in the K12B losses column.

 

 

Yeah, I love how afpc says they "don't negotiate with terrorists" whenever anyone puts something like that on their adp. It's not that we are terrorists, we are giving you an accurate picture to work with. We have determined that if we get an assignment below a certain cut line, it is not worth it for us to stay. You would think afpc would appreciate having such direct and blunt Intel, but then they have always been more of a shell-game group of scheisters who don't like being forced to make tough decisions - just handing out raw deals (sorry, bad timing!) so we have to make tough decisions...