Promotion and PRF Information

[Guest ThatGuy]

Lets discuss the AAD. I am not making a blanket statement so do not view it as one. During SOS there were assignments where people had an inability to effectively write per my instructor. Yes, everyone passed but you can attribute the instructor comments to the following:

A. Not having an AAD

B. Language barrier

C. Individuals cannot comprehend/master effective writing

D. Don't care about SOS grades

In order to lead you have to know how to effectively communicate which includes writing and speaking. How can you bring about change if you cannot communicate your message. For the most part everyone who gave excellent briefings were also excellent writers. In essence, the way you write is typically how you speak and vice versa.

I have seen poor writing in a tactics manual. If you plan to move up the ladder you won't always be behind the controls of an aircraft. Officers and enlisted will not follow you if they do not understand your emails, powepoints, memorandums, or briefings. Rank does not automatically equate to respect and airmen following you. How can anyone change a system if they cannot effectively write or talk about how it should change?

Edited June 17, 2013 by slick999

[slackline]

That's just it. Its not a rule at all. There are far too many exceptions to call it a rule. Acting like it is just convinces a lot of guys to not even bother trying.

There are far too many people that are convinced they need to sacrifice their families or sanity for their career. I'll stick with "exceptions" because a real degree, from a real university isn't something you can just do a little here and there of. It takes serious time and energy to do that. So does our job as well as being a good husband and father. Again, maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I believe that a family is more important than anything else we'll ever do. That doesn't mean you screw over your buddies to never take the bad deal TDYs because when everybody shares the pain it's bearable, and the family can handle those interruptions. What it. Can't handle, and divorce statistics back me up, is the hard charger who puts his career above all else.

I know a family is a choice, but you'd be hard pressed to find enough people to fill Amy volunteer military without family men/women. That has to be taken into account.

And, above all, family being a choice, doesn't change the fact that the AF is doing it wrong on AADs.

For SOS and poor writing skills... I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but no diploma mill degree is going to fix that, so don't pretend like a fake master's is going to somehow fix an idiot's inability to logically write a paper.

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[Guest ThatGuy]

There are far too many people that are convinced they need to sacrifice their families or sanity for their career. I'll stick with "exceptions" because a real degree, from a real university isn't something you can just do a little here and there of. It takes serious time and energy to do that. So does our job as well as being a good husband and father. Again, maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I believe that a family is more important than anything else we'll ever do. That doesn't mean you screw over your buddies to never take the bad deal TDYs because when everybody shares the pain it's bearable, and the family can handle those interruptions. What it. Can't handle, and divorce statistics back me up, is the hard charger who puts his career above all else.

I know a family is a choice, but you'd be hard pressed to find enough people to fill Amy volunteer military without family men/women. That has to be taken into account.

And, above all, family being a choice, doesn't change the fact that the AF is doing it wrong on AADs.

For SOS and poor writing skills... I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but no diploma mill degree is going to fix that, so don't pretend like a fake master's is going to somehow fix an idiot's inability to logically write a paper.

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Seriously, you are off the mark and you don't know what improves an individuals ability to write. It's like shooting free throws and practice makes perfect. The same applies to writing and obtaining an AAD. If the curriculum for an AAD focuses more on writing it will enhance your ability to write. Or you won't pass period.

Are state universities and the Air Force Academy diploma mills when compared to Harvard and Yale? You keep drawing lines in the sand and you remind me of that guy who just does not get it. The attitude and mentality that you have is what holds the Air Force back from moving forward. I hope you don't supervise any airmen because you would tell them don't get a CCAF either. Your venom will bite you in the buttocks eventually.

Edited June 17, 2013 by slick999

[BitteEinBit]

So, let me get this straight....I was supposed to 'learn' writing skills from my Master's classes? Unfortunately, I didn't take a single class in either of my Master's degrees that 'taught' me how to write. Almost all of them just evaluated my ability to remember and regurgitate information I learned in 'class,' or should I say from my 'readings and group discussions.' Writing a comment on the topic of the week and responding to three of my classmate comments is hardly 'learning' how to write. You are supposed to 'learn' how to write in your undergraduate studies. I do remember taking speech and writing classes in my undergraduate studies....are they not requiring those classes for undergrad degrees anymore?

I think everyone knows what we mean by diploma mill. Defend it all you want, but getting a worthless Master's degree does not help the individual or the Air Force. Not all of those degrees even require a thesis. Some of them just require comprehensive exams that you can cram and study for a week before the test and then brain dump a week after. The Air Force needs to go back to the time they used to identify future strategic leaders, send them to strategy specific degree programs (logistics, strategic communications, national security studues, PolMil, business, etc) so they can learn to better run this machine. There used to be more programs out there like that when I was growing up in this AF. You just can't convince me that an advance degree in english folklore, while it satisfies the AAD requirement for advancement, is going to help any individual or this institution operate more efficiently. That is what I mean by "worthless" degree.

Yes, an AAD is required to advance in this AF...if you don't want to get one to specifically enhance your career, then at least get one that will help you when, yes WHEN, you separate from the service because eventually you will. The AF isn't the only place you'll need an AAD to stand out and be competitive. You need them on the outside too.

[ThreeHoler]

The things I read from other students at the "graduate level" make baby Jesus cry. Do I write good in the Internet? Not always, and yes that was intentional. But I do try to write clear and concise thoughts down when I am communicating at work. No part of my illustrious AAD work has done a damn thing to improve my writing or critical thinking. It has improved my knowledge and understanding of doctrine.

[slackline]

. The attitude and mentality that you have is what holds the Air Force back from moving forward. I hope you don't supervise any airmen because you would tell them don't get a CCAF either. Your venom will bite you in the buttocks eventually.

Seriously? You have really partaken of the cool-aid my friend. Venom? Get over yourself. I've been pretty calm about everything I've said on here. I used the word disgusted once, that's about as serious as things ever got. If that's venom to you, how did you ever survive this mean spirited military?

You're right, if they ever make the mistake of giving me a squadron I will tell my guys straight up that I couldn't care less about AADs. I will be upfront with them in regards to it potentially hurting them, so it remains their choice. It will never factor into a rack/stack I do, and I will fight tooth and nail for the guys I rank my #1, etc with my bosses. If that's going to get me fired, so be it. They should have never put me in charge in the first place. My guys will know where they stand with me, and if the mission isn't their number one priority then they won't make the mark.

Simplistic? Probably, but I'm not alone in that mentality. CCAF is a different monster, and the E side of the house is another animal altogether, so I won't pretend to tackle that in here. You brought it up, I believe we were talking about young LTs and Capts, but whatever. Throw whatever you want in to back up your argument.

This was on an iPhone, so it probably is all jacked up. Sorry.

[pawnman]

It's all about trade-offs. If its worth it to someone, they can do it. I've seen it plenty of times ranging from Aero to Applied Mathematics and Computer Science from good schools.

Between crew rest, whatever weekends you get, CTO, post-mission crew rest, that 30 days of leave you get a year, and the occasional ETIC, you can get a a hell of a lot done. It might be a giant pain in the ass and a whole lot less time drinking, but anyone who says it can't be done is flat out lying or lacks time management skills. However, the #1 thing I can say if someone is really worried about it is to put off popping out the kiddies for a few years. You'll love them just as much when you're 30 and when you're 26. Kids change everything, but they are a choice in and of themselves.

If its not worth it to you, great. That's your choice and its valid. Either pass on the AAD or get your diploma-mill degree. But it is a choice.

Its perfectly possible to get a good AAD, you just have to accept the trade offs.

Ah. Just tell the family to fuck off for a couple years while you get the AAD. Perfect.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

[TreeA10]

This getting a worthless AAD (I got mine a long time ago) just because it proves you care would be much better If you could substitute the useless AAD for some more worthwhile skill like making balloon animals. Think of the fun. "Captain, I don't see how you are ever going to be worthy to promote to Major. That looks nothing like godzilla!"

[DFRESH]

This getting a worthless AAD (I got mine a long time ago) just because it proves you care would be much better If you could substitute the useless AAD for some more worthwhile skill like making balloon animals. Think of the fun. "Captain, I don't see how you are ever going to be worthy to promote to Major. That looks nothing like godzilla!"

[Azimuth]

Ah. Just tell the family to ###### off for a couple years while you get the AAD. Perfect.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

You guys must have it rough with your six-month desert rotations to the BPC. You guys must be flying all the time with your kickass FMC rate as well. Get real.

[Recut]

Lets discuss the AAD. I am not making a blanket statement so do not view it as one. During SOS there were assignments where people had an inability to effectively write per my instructor. Yes, everyone passed but you can attribute the instructor comments to the following:

A. Not having an AAD

B. Language barrier

C. Individuals cannot comprehend/master effective writing

D. Don't care about SOS grades

In order to lead you have to know how to effectively communicate which includes writing and speaking. How can you bring about change if you cannot communicate your message. For the most part everyone who gave excellent briefings were also excellent writers. In essence, the way you write is typically how you speak and vice versa.

I have seen poor writing in a tactics manual. If you plan to move up the ladder you won't always be behind the controls of an aircraft. Officers and enlisted will not follow you if they do not understand your emails, powepoints, memorandums, or briefings. Rank does not automatically equate to respect and airmen following you. How can anyone change a system if they cannot effectively write or talk about how it should change?

Valid point IMO about communicating via effective writing. However, SOS/military writing is not the same as civilian writing. Disclaimer: I did the 5 week gig a couple of years ago so I don't know what they're doing now with the SOS course.....only speaking from my own experience. In that experience, writing at SOS was complete BS. The instructors had a litmus for what was a "great/awesome/excellent/whatever the F you wanna call it" paper based on whatever BS rubric they were issued. There's no peer-reviewed journal-published articles to cite as in a civilian course. I don't think the writing at SOS had anything to do with effective communication as much as it did with expressing how much blue Kool-Aid you had drank (and in the format supported by the Kool-Aid factory).

Edited June 18, 2013 by Recut

[Day Man]

You guys must have it rough with your six-month desert rotations to the BPC.

Uhh...aren't you at Altus?

[Azimuth]

Uhh...aren't you at Altus?

After spending seven years in AMC, yep.

[pawnman]

You guys must have it rough with your six-month desert rotations to the BPC. You guys must be flying all the time with your kickass FMC rate as well. Get real.

Yes, our six-month rotations every year, with 3-4 13+ hour flights a week, or 12-hour days on ground duty.

I'm sure you have it so much worse. Boo hoo.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Valid point IMO about communicating via effective writing. However, SOS/military writing is not the same as civilian writing. Disclaimer: I did the 5 week gig a couple of years ago so I don't know what they're doing now with the SOS course.....only speaking from my own experience. In that experience, writing at SOS was complete BS. The instructors had a litmus for what was a "great/awesome/excellent/whatever the F you wanna call it" paper based on whatever BS rubric they were issued. There's no peer-reviewed journal-published articles to cite as in a civilian course. I don't think the writing at SOS had anything to do with effective communication as much as it did with expressing how much blue Kool-Aid you had drank (and in the format supported by the Kool-Aid factory).

The sad part was people didn't read the rubric. I remember someone saying does this paper needs an introduction and conclusion? I said I have not read the rubric yet but every paper needs am introduction and conclusion when writing about a topic.

When was the last time I did a background paper? It was in AFROTC and then ALS. Here in the squadron all I have ever really needed to submit are memos and COA's.

Edited June 19, 2013 by slick999

[Murph]

Yes, our six-month rotations every year, with 3-4 13+ hour flights a week, or 12-hour days on ground duty.

I'm sure you have it so much worse. Boo hoo.

Just stop. No one is feeling sorry for you.

[Whitman]

Just stop. No one is feeling sorry for you.

I am. Would you rather be in the stack 12hrs with 1hr admin or 7hrs with 6 cross country flying out of one of the hottest and most humid places on earth where you have to deal with dirt bags at customs every time you go fly?

[Ram]

I am. Would you rather be in the stack 12hrs with 1hr admin or 7hrs with 6 cross country flying out of one of the hottest and most humid places on earth where you have to deal with dirt bags at customs every time you go fly?

JEEZUS CHRIST ON A CRACKER.

Ask LTC Raible and the rest of VMA-211 if drinking your 3 beers/day and living in a hotel suite while deployed is better than dodging RPGs and getting mortared weekly.

GFY.

[Guest ThatGuy]

JEEZUS CHRIST ON A CRACKER.

Ask LTC Raible and the rest of VMA-211 if drinking your 3 beers/day and living in a hotel suite while deployed is better than dodging RPGs and getting mortared weekly.

GFY.

Must I add during OIF living in CHU's. Those werent bad at all. Then living in a b-hut during OEF with termites eating your cell. Yes, consider your room as a prison cell. I think the dimensions might be right. I slept with an electric blanket and thank goodness I brought one with me.

LOL..don't even think about grabbing an extra Rip It before a flight while in the DFAC. The DFAC workers would take you down.

We had this one Lt Col who drank the non-alcoholic beers in theater. I swore he would get drunk after drinking like 5 of them because he talked and looked like he was drunk. After every flight this dude was chugging those drinks..WTH.

Edited June 19, 2013 by slick999

[AnimalMother]

3 beers a day is nice, guys in AFRICOM are going to miss it.

[pawnman]

Just stop. No one is feeling sorry for you.

I'm not getting into a dick-measuring contest about who has the higher opstempo.

My point was that this advice:

It's all about trade-offs. If its worth it to someone, they can do it. I've seen it plenty of times ranging from Aero to Applied Mathematics and Computer Science from good schools.

Between crew rest, whatever weekends you get, CTO, post-mission crew rest, that 30 days of leave you get a year, and the occasional ETIC, you can get a a hell of a lot done. It might be a giant pain in the ass and a whole lot less time drinking, but anyone who says it can't be done is flat out lying or lacks time management skills. However, the #1 thing I can say if someone is really worried about it is to put off popping out the kiddies for a few years. You'll love them just as much when you're 30 and when you're 26. Kids change everything, but they are a choice in and of themselves.

If its not worth it to you, great. That's your choice and its valid. Either pass on the AAD or get your diploma-mill degree. But it is a choice.

Its perfectly possible to get a good AAD, you just have to accept the trade offs.

Is complete bullshit to guys (like all of us, I assume) who are already away from home all the time for deployments, TDYs, and exercises. I didn't have a choice to delay kids to do my master's...my kid was already born when I joined. The idea that we should take leave to complete a de facto requisite that isn't in any official guidance is asinine.

My point wasn't to make every go "Aw, wook at the poor wittle Bone guys, they have it so rough". My point was, I don't think Slackline's advice is all that applicable. "Family is a choice" boiled down, to me, "Tell your family to fuck off, the Air Force matters more". I wish him luck with that line of thought, but I plan to keep my current family until well after I'm done with the Air Force.

I've seen plenty of guys who prioritized work over family. They're usually the guys with alimony payments who hang out in the squadron bar until midnight every night, trying to tell anyone who walks past the door war stories. No thanks, I'll just take my shitty check the box master's now and look for a real one when I get out and/or get that sweet staff job where I'm home every night.

[LJ Driver]

https://www.af.mil/ne...sp?id=123351830

Just saw this solid-gold article on AF.mil, the quote below sums the article up nicely - and pretty much confirms all of our thoughts about filling squares...

"The choice is yours and yours alone. Be willing to accept the consequences. Don't say, "He/she only got Senior Airman below-the-zone because he went to school." Rather, you must say, "I lost because I chose not to go to school. I chose not to fill the squares."

Edited June 19, 2013 by LJ Driver

[pawnman]

https://www.af.mil/ne...sp?id=123351830

Just saw this solid-gold article on AF.mil, the quote below sums the article up nicely - and pretty much confirms all of our thoughts about filling squares...

"The choice is yours and yours alone. Be willing to accept the consequences. Don't say, "He/she only got Senior Airman below-the-zone because he went to school." Rather, you must say, "I lost because I chose not to go to school. I chose not to fill the squares."

40-hour work week? Must be in the FSS.

[slackline]

My point was, I don't think Slackline's advice is all that applicable. "Family is a choice" boiled down, to me, "Tell your family to ###### off, the Air Force matters more". I wish him luck with that line of thought, but I plan to keep my current family until well after I'm done with the Air Force.

I've seen plenty of guys who prioritized work over family. They're usually the guys with alimony payments who hang out in the squadron bar until midnight every night, trying to tell anyone who walks past the door war stories. No thanks, I'll just take my shitty check the box master's now and look for a real one when I get out and/or get that sweet staff job where I'm home every night.

WTF? You have serious reading comprehension issues! I had two kids before finishing UPT. My point was the exact opposite of what your applying to me. I was acknowledging that family is a choice as well, and you're a moron if you think it isn't. Nobody forced you to knock up the Mrs... Family is a choice, but that doesn't mean it's going to take a back seat to anything at my house.

Here's some new advice for you: go re-read my posts, and re-think about what it says. I'm with you. My family is with me for the long haul, and vice-versa.

Okay, back to the discussion.

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[Whitman]

JEEZUS CHRIST ON A CRACKER. Ask LTC Raible and the rest of VMA-211 if drinking your 3 beers/day and living in a hotel suite while deployed is better than dodging RPGs and getting mortared weekly. GFY.

Easy tiger (or Ram). All I'm saying is from a mission perspective, I'd rather be closer to the where I can do my job so I can have a greater influence. I never wasted much time worrying about where I was sleeping, whether it was in a B hut in OEF or a trailer in the CC, but the danger that our troops face in country is a legitimate threat and concern to me. That's why I'd rather be 30min away.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Whitman