Promotion and PRF Information

[General Chang]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

[Rusty Pipes]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

Ummmm... got it; so box checking at specific gates to attain a completely useless AAD at taxpayer expense equates directly to getting promoted early and O-6! It also seems that you equate the Masters degree from IDE to being even more useless than the ERAU Masters he got in the box checking process. If you say that being selected for IDE guarantees both a Masters and PME then how do you justify the all but unwritten requirement to have both completed before then? You said yourself that in order to progress past O-5 you need both done prior to IDE. In times of massive budget cuts, sequestration and furloughs I'd love to hear from the perspective of someone more senior than 95% of the guys in this forum and sitting up at the Pentagon how you justify that expense for the sake of box checking? Serious question!

There are very few people on here that have heard a valid reason from AF leaders for us to continue funding diploma factories. Do you have one? In fact I'd venture to say that there is a vast majority of folks here who got the same talk from their bosses that I did, "I know it is stupid, but just knock it out to check the box so you don't close any doors." I've heard the "educated force" reasoning countless times from GOs, but I can say without exaggerating at all that my AAD "education" was probably the equivalent of high school level academics. The really scary thing is that even though you will get a large percent of officers ranging from O-1 to even O-10 (reference Gen Jumper) including almost every Sq CC and OG CC I've had in the past 10 yrs who thinks this is either a useless requirement or a distraction, but when Maul complains about it your reaction to him not falling in line is, "...do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service." One of my past DOs is an O-7 now and a few months ago he was telling me about how much of a colossal waste of time and money he thinks AADs from online schools for box checking are for our officer corps... should he have done us all a favor and left at the 20 year mark too???

[Maul]

Whoa Killer. Top Rope is fine. I read the AFI. I understood my Wg/CC would have some serious explaining to a GO if I wasn't recommended (although my less than knowledgable Sq/CC did assert it happens all the time). I understood the rules and yes, I thought it would be better to have my AAD prior to last look. I was also under the impression I wouldn't be held until last look because I didn't have my AAD. I suppose this is the mentoring I missed when the OG leadership seems to attempt to "fix the glitch" for the AF for the non AAD school select. At least this was my impression after I thought I would be recommended 2nd look and was surprised when I wasn't. This year was also followed by a blank 2-below PRF. I know I likely wouldn't have had a prayer, but I still felt dissappointed. I thought I was trying to do everything expected and shouldn't gripe. I suppose the service is better served by those who don't complain about the system.

I was surprised you went straight to get the f**k out and do us a service and Kill yourself while your at it. (Drama for emphasis)

I have had a positive experience for the majority of my Air Force career with great assignments, opportunities, and good luck/timing. I probably shouldn't complain about my admitted self-induced pain. The last year or two has been especially difficult for me and my family (Boo-hoo, right. I'm sure others have it much worse and have lost their families). As we've been told the entire time (at least I have seen it), checking all the boxes doesn't guarentee you anything and in the end the Institution will march along just fine after any of us leave. For those who juggle with the decision to dedicate more time to the Air Force or to a Family, I hope everyone is able to navigate those waters safely with their families intact. Yup, nobody is forcing me to stay. Just seemed a little venomous for a post concerning the overemphasis (IMHO, probably not yours) of the AAD. But unless an entire year group decides not to get one, it will continue to be an easy way to stratify.

[addict]

WTF Just happened. I've never read so much gamesmanship in one post (GC)

"Thanks for your service" is going to be making the rounds I suppose.

Edited June 28, 2013 by addict

[deskjockey]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

This is the most revealing anecdote and response in this board to date. Assuming Gen Chang is who he alludes to being and not a troll... Wrapped up in the response to someone who, for whatever reason, had to complete a useless AAD in order to continue to serve and be promoted is all that is wrong with the AF. 1)box checking 2) lack of mission focus 3) careerism 4) and most of all, poor, seeemingly impotent, leadership, reliant on platitudes and dismissive of anyone who doesn't reflect their image of a good officer.

A better response:

Maul, thank you for your service. (better to lead with that rather than the sanctimonious way in which Chang used it) You faced a tough situation. You would have certainly gone to ACSC based on the select status. However, because of timing, I'm sure you know that any chance for a BPZ would be eliminated. Congrats though, as an in-res school dude you have a great shot at O-6. You can stay tactically relevant and hopefully continue to lead from the front. This is a great example of how choosing not to check the Air force approved boxes can bite you. While I don't agree with the system completely, it is the world we live in for now. (while working to change it). Good luck, enjoy school, and get back to the fight soon.

Edited June 28, 2013 by deskjockey

[slackline]

slackline, did you come from the 347th wing at Moody by any chance? Just inquisitive, no other motive.

Attack!

Tulsa

Tenant unit, but yes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[General Chang]

This is the most revealing anecdote and response in this board to date. Assuming Gen Chang is who he alludes to being and not a troll... Wrapped up in the response to someone who, for whatever reason, had to complete a useless AAD in order to continue to serve and be promoted is all that is wrong with the AF. 1)box checking 2) lack of mission focus 3) careerism 4) and most of all, poor, seeemingly impotent, leadership, reliant on platitudes and dismissive of anyone who doesn't reflect their image of a good officer.

A better response:

Maul, thank you for your service. (better to lead with that rather than the sanctimonious way in which Chang used it) You faced a tough situation. You would have certainly gone to ACSC based on the select status. However, because of timing, I'm sure you know that any chance for a BPZ would be eliminated. Congrats though, as an in-res school dude you have a great shot at O-6. You can stay tactically relevant and hopefully continue to lead from the front. This is a great example of how choosing not to check the Air force approved boxes can bite you. While I don't agree with the system completely, it is the world we live in for now. (while working to change it). Good luck, enjoy school, and get back to the fight soon.

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

[deskjockey]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

Classy. I think we can close the book on this troll.

Nothing to see here...move along.

[Rusty Pipes]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

So I guess Chang isn't a pilot then, huh?

[Vetter]

Probably washed out of pilot training.

[theat6bisasham]

He mimics a brain dead old head very well though...MSG/CC at the very least in my book.

[Karl Hungus]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

Ugh.

Much like Liquid, ClearedHot, and other "leaders" to frequent this board... disappointing.

[Ram]

Ugh.

Much like Liquid, ClearedHot, and other "leaders" to frequent this board... disappointing.

I haven't read all of Liquid's posts, but I know for sure it's not right to lump ClearedHot in that pile of "leaders."

CH's posts have always been straight talk, even the ones people found tough to read. I think it's unfortunate he doesn't post much (or at all) anymore.

[ThreeHoler]

cahones

What are cahones? Are the anything like cojones?

[Karl Hungus]

I haven't read all of Liquid's posts, but I know for sure it's not right to lump ClearedHot in that pile of "leaders."

CH's posts have always been straight talk, even the ones people found tough to read. I think it's unfortunate he doesn't post much (or at all) anymore.

You must have missed the thread in the squadron bar where he was called out by someone for editing people's posts, then deleted the subsequent posts of everyone who dared to call him out on his bullshit. Classy. Don't think he's been back since.

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19621-roll-call-rainman/

Check out the last few pages. Apparently someone (hopefully ClearedHot himself) went back and un-deleted the posts.

We need "leaders" to participate on these forums... and we need them to be receptive to the fact that not everyone is going to agree with them.

[busdriver]

Ugh, the good General clearly said his advice was for a dude he thought wanted to compete for O-6. I think at that level an AAD is actually a good idea, obviously the box-check type degrees are dumb as shit and we can probably re-work the PME system to provide better education and a better built in AAD. He pointed out that Maul's leadership gave him shitty gouge and were being the very assholes we hate for pimping the AAD when Maul didn't need it just yet(at least for the reasons they were providing) but that in the end him grunting through that worthless degree he is actually better setup for promotion.

All that crap said, I think most of us are cranky about the AAD requirement not because we want to be O-6 or higher, it's because we want to serve out to 20 and the only way to ensure that is to make O-5 or roll the dice with continuation. This all comes back to how much room is there in the AF for terminal Majs and LtCols that still fly?

In the end, let's stop being so damn emotional about this, is the current system perfect? Not in a million years, so now that we have some actual senior dudes hanging out (gonna press the I believe button) why not offer up a better way of doing things that still builds future senior leaders without useless box checking?

Example: I've heard that due to funding only selects can expect to go to school for the near term, and only school grads can expect a staff. This is stupid and a waste of resources. School selects should not do correspondence and the resident program should be a blend of current program plus SAAS, following that dudes should do a fellowship type program and pop out the other end as the super brainiac thinkers. Non-selects do correspondence, then go to staff and come out the other end as the process dudes. In the end you have the fast burners that are the big idea guys, and the not so fast burners are the process guys who can make those ideas into reality.

Probably full of flaws, but it isn't bitching.

[GoAround]

Classy. I think we can close the book on this troll.

Nothing to see here...move along.

Concur. That was a serious case of Jekyll/Hyde.

[TheInner]

All that crap said, I think most of us are cranky about the AAD requirement not because we want to be O-6 or higher, it's because we want to serve out to 20 and the only way to ensure that is to make O-5 or roll the dice with continuation. This all comes back to how much room is there in the AF for terminal Majs and LtCols that still fly?

In the end, let's stop being so damn emotional about this, is the current system perfect? Not in a million years, so now that we have some actual senior dudes hanging out (gonna press the I believe button) why not offer up a better way of doing things that still builds future senior leaders without useless box checking?

busdriver, good post. One of the best things the Air Force could do is finally realize that of a squadron full of Capts, very few if any will become or want to be GOs so why must they all be pushed that way. The problem with ditching the leadership push is that although you may end up with a bunch of highly proficient pilots/WSOs/etc you still have a void in leadership. I'm all for a squadron commander being a full up tactical dude but leading as a mission commander in an LFE is a far stretch from leading a squadron. The stuff that has made my decision about signing the bonus or not tough is working for guys that can't lead that LFE and can't lead in the non-tactical environment either. I have worked for good and bad squadron commanders and the best are the guys that can still hold their own in the jet and/or prove they are trying to regain their old form as well as guys who actually try to empower the flight commanders and shop chiefs verse micro-manage and use them as OPR scribes.

[noumenon]

GC/Liquid,

Another point of view. Lot of talk about that bottom 25% being easy to identify...only easy to identify given the current performance measures and reward system. Lot of folks here agree that YES, it's easy to indentify that bottom. Rethink the whole performance measurement and reward system, and the bottom 25% will change. "The people who are closest to the work, know who's doing it". -Jack Welch. As a hook, this video mentions AWC...

[AnimalMother]

"You get the behavior you reward," that pretty much explains it.

[Maverick77]

Long time lurker but first time poster. Hopefully this thread isn't so off track that there aren’t people left that can answer a promotion board question.

I am currently ITZ for Lt Col. I am in the Mission Ops Support category and was in the wrong place at the wrong time to have any chance to get a DP. I work at JSOC and I am up against rated O-4s that are doing cross CCMD AO coordination that has the attention of the General Officers in the command. My job unfortunately doesn't afford me that visibility, therefore I wasn't too shocked when I got the inevitable "Promote" on my PRF.

Just found out that the stats for my group (Mission Ops Support with ADD that got a P) is at 44% for this board. Not sure when the release is, but could possibly be next week. I think that I have a strong “P” package, but really don’t have a clue how a board would see it. I am wondering if there are any folks on this message board who have served on board can give me some insight.

A quick summary of my package:

• No strats while at JSOC, but did have a strat as an early O-4: of 2 out of 24 O-4s at my old job.
  
• Push statement says “Definitely Promote!” but I don’t believe it is not a “Super P”
  
• Deployed 8 times for 900+ days during my career (Actually it is 1000+, but they got it wrong on my PRF)
  
• BSM, DMSM, MSM, JSCM, 4xAFCM
  
• Joint Qualified Officer
  
• Have checked all the “boxes”. ADD through NPS, SOS cor and in res, ACSC correspondence. All on time.
  

Just wondering how my package would rate and if it has a chance to be one of the 44%. Any insight would be appreciated.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Maverick77

[zach braff]

Do you have a "if I had one more DP to give..." or anything similar in your bottom line or just the definitely promote verbiage?

Statistically you probably have a good chance considering your boxes but going from having a strat as a maj to not having a strat might counteract that (check the AFPC stats from last year for P with ACSC correspondence & masters on their site). Hopefully you'll score a few points for the deployed time (that's a lot for a mission support type).

I'd say you're right on the border, but with a slight lean towards getting promoted.

Take my advice for what it's worth, going strictly off what I saw from a stint working on a senior rater's staff where I saw plenty of PRFs and the resulting promotion selections/non-selections.

Good luck!

zb

[Maverick77]

Thanks Zach. It is just "Definately promote" so no super P then. The 44% I was told for this year was for P with ACSC corr and masters.

[Jaded]

It's sad that people are forced to ask these questions on an internet message board rather than just being able to ask their boss.

On the other hand, it's awesome that this board exists to answer questions like this. I don't know what I'd do without bops.

[backseatdriver]

Thanks Zach. It is just "Definately promote" so no super P then. The 44% I was told for this year was for P with ACSC corr and masters.

You said AAD through NPS - did you get IDE equivalency?