Promotion and PRF Information

[Skitzo]

I agree with Chuck on separating the promotion process. I've suggested that we adopt a system like the US Navy. Restricted and Unreistricted Line Officers. And now that we have senior leaders on the forum I'd like to see what they think.

Simply put if the mission is to win in air, space and cyberspace then why are the operators competing with support?

The day I see a MX officer in command of a flying wing is the day I change my mind on this. And before anyone gets butt hurt this change would not impact anything other than two groups of unlike people from unnecessary competition.

The current system only propagates the current tail wagging the dog mentality.

I've flown missions with females who have used a new level of profane and crude language. They have told jokes dirtier than I have ever heard. Was I a victim of reverse harassment?

[Van1]

The day I see a MX officer in command of a flying wing is the day I change my mind on this. And before anyone gets butt hurt this change would not impact anything other than two groups of unlike people from unnecessary competition.

.

I've been in a flying wing that had a 14N at the helm. Not sure it went so well for the wing but said individual now has 2 stars.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Van1

[Guest ThatGuy]

I agree with Chuck on separating the promotion process. I've suggested that we adopt a system like the US Navy. Restricted and Unreistricted Line Officers. And now that we have senior leaders on the forum I'd like to see what they think.

Simply put if the mission is to win in air, space and cyberspace then why are the operators competing with support?

The day I see a MX officer in command of a flying wing is the day I change my mind on this. And before anyone gets butt hurt this change would not impact anything other than two groups of unlike people from unnecessary competition.

The current system only propagates the current tail wagging the dog mentality.

I've flown missions with females who have used a new level of profane and crude language. They have told jokes dirtier than I have ever heard. Was I a victim of reverse harassment?

If the promotion board process split off what would stop the process from splitting again? Shouldn't AFSOC have their own promotion board? They are probably on the road more if not a little less than C-17s (Don't have the statistics.). Do the Special Forces guys and Navy Seals have a different promotion system than the rest of their counterparts? Seems like they don't stay in that long so probably not.

[Mike Honcho]

Hush. Line of the AF would do with at least a look to who is included in that definition.

Edited to add, I can only speak from my experience and outlook, but if senior leadership can:

1. Quantify combat capability (for purposes of measurement, we can discuss the extent of said capability later..I get that some points could go past unclass but still)

and

2. Prove the manning (personning? Did a kitten just get assaulted?) and culture decisions improved that capability, we'll all shut up and either color or get out.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Mike Honcho

[Gravedigger]

What I would honestly like to see is an AFPC-generated number of promotion allocations per AFSC. Then, the WG/CCs, Grp/CCs and other senior leaders of each AFSC get together once per year to not only vector but also decide promotions. Whether it is a promotion rate, or a specific number, I think the leaders in each community could do a much better job than the masses at a CSB. Like someone mentioned earlier, strats are absolutely not created equally. In some career fields going to the schoolhouse means you are squared away, in space it means you weren't selected for a green-door job and they have billets to fill. So the #1 instructor in the schoolhouse would probably be somewhere in the middle or bottom at the NRO or in a space control squadron. Obviously there are exceptions, but not many. I'm sure every community has nuances like that, but they are probably invisible to everyone outside of that AFSC. If pilots have a 95% rate and space is 90% for example, I'd much rather have space dudes picking that 90% than the board members now that can't understand a single one of our OPR bullets. As numbers change, promotion rates change relative to that AFSC. It allows for much more dynamic and efficient management of career fields and a better product overall IMO.

[pawnman]

If the promotion board process split off what would stop the process from splitting again? Shouldn't AFSOC have their own promotion board? They are probably on the road more if not a little less than C-17s (Don't have the statistics.). Do the Special Forces guys and Navy Seals have a different promotion system than the rest of their counterparts? Seems like they don't stay in that long so probably not.

I don't know if you need to go that far. I'd just prefer if the people looking at my PRF knew what a JDAM was without consulting the list of acronyms on the back of the form.

[ThreeHoler]

I don't know if you need to go that far. I'd just prefer if the people looking at my PRF knew what a JDAM was without consulting the list of acronyms on the back of the form.

Use "bomb." Problem solved.

[General Condition]

Vetter, Chuck17, ChampKind, Animal, and all of you other disturbed officers out there,

Your callousness, bitterness, perversion, and outright disgusting behavior turns my stomach. YOURS are the types of attitudes that General Welsh is trying to weed out of the Air Force. He will be successful, and all of the sexist children in the Air Force will quickly find themselves out of a job (at least in uniform). You guys talk about core values in other threads?? Look at the filth you are posting! I am begging you, please reevaluate your own character before subjecting your squadron-mates to this disgusting behavior, because there will be consequences in the not-too-distant future.

You know, I often think to myself, "If my daughter wants to join the service, will I be 100% behind her when the time comes?" Reading this thread and trash that "adults in charge" are posting here gives me great pause when answering that question...

How can you identify sexual discrimination in your subordinates when you are actively practicing that type of behavior in your mind? Please meditate on & pray about what I've said here.

You need psychological help. Thank you for your service.

[Guest ThatGuy]

The squadron got an email saying not to use certain acronyms on our OPRs and EPRs anymore. The WG/CC essentially said the acronyms are specifically related to our community. Also sounded like some supervisors have been using the same bullets.

For my PRF in the future can I change those acronyms out for the right term? For example change JDAM to bomb. I know you have to annotate in a spreadsheet where you derived the information from OPR wise to include in your PRF.

Edited July 6, 2013 by slick999

[Danny Noonin]

For my PRF in the future can I change those acronyms out for the right term? For example change JDAM to bomb.

Yes the words can be changed. PRFs do not have to be verbatim from your reports. They simply summarize facts already in your record. You cannot introduce new facts (unless they occurred since your last report closed out) but you can certainly rephrase, combine data, etc.

Edit: Having said that, I'm not convinced JDAM is the "wrong" term for a PRF. In my opinion, that's a common enough term that can (should) be understood by non-CAF board members or at least the meaning can be generally inferred in context (depending on how it's written). There is a fine line between writing that is so technical and acronym laden as to be unreadable or not understandable to a generic CE or personnel guy and writing that is so generalized and dumbed down so as to be completely unimpressive.

I would hope that a crowd of AIR FORCE O-6s could understand a very basic weapon like JDAM. Maybe that's naive thinking. Are they telling you not to use that? If you start saying GBU-38, that's probably going to lose them, but I wouldn't think twice about using JDAM myself.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Danny Noonin

[ThreeHoler]

The squadron got an email saying not to use certain acronyms on our OPRs and EPRs anymore. The WG/CC essentially said the acronyms are specifically related to our community. Also sounded like some supervisors have been using the same bullets.

For my PRF in the future can I change those acronyms out for the right term? For example change JDAM to bomb.

A PRF is nothing more than a fancy amalgamation of the salient points of your various OPRs...so, yes, you can change terms as long as you don't substantially change the meaning.

Noonan!

[DirkDiggler]

The squadron got an email saying not to use certain acronyms on our OPRs and EPRs anymore. The WG/CC essentially said the acronyms are specifically related to our community. Also sounded like some supervisors have been using the same bullets.

For my PRF in the future can I change those acronyms out for the right term? For example change JDAM to bomb.

My former Gp had an approved acronyms guide we had to use when writing OPR/EPRs. You could only use a maximum of 5 that weren't on the approved guide. It made writing OPR/EPRs even more of a pain in the ass then usual but I could understand the logic. A lot of the things we do in AFSOC are pretty specific to the community; even other flying communities don't really know a lot of what we do. The idea was to make the OPR/EPR understandable by anyone sitting on a promotion board, regardless of background.

[Rusty Pipes]

I would hope that a crowd of AIR FORCE O-6s could understand a very basic weapon like JDAM. Maybe that's naive thinking. Are they telling you not to use that? If you start saying GBU-38, that's probably going to lose them, but I wouldn't think twice about using JDAM myself.

Ummmm... I wasn't exaggerating from my earlier post. Worked with an O-6 who sat on both O-4/O-5 boards and could not identify an F-22, F-35, C-17 or a C-5 from a picture. Even scarier was the fact that she worked in a leadership position in the Acquisitions field that was in charge of all of those MWS contracts! Granted I surely don't know any of the acronyms in the Finance world, but then again I'm not an O-6 sitting on a promotion board of the U.S. Finance Force either!

[Beaver]

He will be successful, and all of the sexist children in the Air Force will quickly find themselves out of a job (at least in uniform).

I think he means "sexiest".

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[HossHarris]

Vetter, Chuck17, ChampKind, Animal, and all of you other (fucks)

Fuck

You

(That is all)

[Liquid]

You and "General" Chang keep saying this stuff... if we're so "bloated and overmanned" and you don't want us, why isn't Palace Chase a realistic option for pilots with more than a year or so left on their ADSCs?

You know what ADSC stands for right? Palace Chase is a force management tool used when supply exceeds demand. Not just to allow the disgruntled and under performers the opportunity to get out early.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Thanks Danny and ThreeHoler.

Dirk you hit the nail on the head. Someone from AFSOC sitting on a board would understand the terms but nobody else would unless they were an Intel officer. I fully understood the WG/CC point. I can envision someone thinking that a C-17 can drop JDAMs after reading a PRF.

[Liquid]

What's wrong with call signs?

Sexist call signs are wrong. Balls, Fingers, Crab, Porno, Nasty, Lick, Woody, Hung, Banger, etc, etc. Funny in the 8th grade. Embarrassing and unacceptable in a professional fighting force.

[Champ Kind]

Ugh.

Just retire.

[Liquid]

Nice. Suppose you mean pilots, the root of all of the DoD's problems.

Nope, I mean those childish and sexist idiots who use the number 69 and word games to make sex jokes at work. It shouldn't matter in this discussion but I am a pilot. No high horse syndrome, I've been saying this about the inappropriate sexist culture for my entire career.

[HossHarris]

Warrior monks.

That'll work out great.

[Liquid]

Trolls,

99.69% of BODN members will not be politically correct here or act like we do at work, where everything we do or say has to be measured against the potential response of some shoeclerk MEO bitch that gets her feelings hurt twice a day and thrice on her period. We say "so to speak" as a jab at said shoeclerk MEO bitch that we all hate; we like to say 69 (or 6 to 9) because it reminds us of how awesome it is to 69 a chick; we sing songs about killing our enemies because we are proud make our country safer and killing those haji mother f'ers is usually the most efficient way to accomplish that; we tell stories about our drunken escapades because there are (many) times we get drunk and live to tell about it the next day; we talk about whores because at some point in our career we have seen our bros hooking up with said whores and then seen the look on their faces after their visit to the flight doc where their dick received the rotor rooter treatment; we sing songs about certain individuals such as Mr. O'Leary, Ms. Adeline Schmitt, the S & M man, our hooker moms, pimp fathers, whore sisters, bros, sons, etc. because we choose to. It's a personal choice. You, nor the CSAF, nor anyone else can force us to think a certain way. The one thing you and everyone else at the Puzzle can do is lead by example. Stop by telling us how we are demented, rapist, immoral individuals, and threatening us with "you will be weeded out." We are not the bad guys, and we are all on the same team, remember? The good 'ole US of A.

Most of us will choose not to have our testicles surgically removed somewhere between O-4 and O-5. We will keep our warrior ethos whether you like it or not and we will talk about the aformentioned things whether you like it or not (and these two things are not necessarily related). I hope there are enough of us left in the officer corps that can and will make this Air Force a warrior minded, mission focused entity. If we can't, we will at least try. If we cannot because the machine is too big (sts), then we will move on to a civilian life where we can succeed in the private sector doing something else (hopefully related to flying).

As a previous poster eluded to, morality at the personal level can never be instituted wholesale. It is a personal decision and that's where it starts and ends. I have learned this as an O-3 Flt/CC in dealing with my subordinates, hopefully you too will learn this someday. I don't know or care who you are, who you work for, or why you have decided to troll on BODN. If someone at the Puzzle put you up to this to get a pulse on the the lower officer echelons, I suggest you actually listen to the heartbeat and stop trying to insert a heart pacemaker.

Until the next time, here's to Meg...

Not saying anything about killing songs, drinking stories or warrior ethos. Just the sex jokes and rape songs at work. Don't care what you post here, think, or do off duty (obviously unless you are breaking the law/UCMJ). The AF will change how you act at work. No more nudge, nudge, wink, wink, it's ok because it is tradition and makes us better fighters. I'm more warrior minded than you think. I just know you don't need this stupid sexist shit to be a warrior.

[Liquid]

Does anyone know who these guys actually are? PM me.

No doubt I will be outed soon. I say these things in public all the time so it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out. I do like having the ability to post without officially representing the AF. That will change when my rank and name are associated with my observations and opinions.

[Vprdrvr69]

Despite all of this, I have one message to you, Liquid and GC: attitude reflects leadership. I'm sure you've seen cases where an organization with the same exact personnel gets turned around because of a change in leadership. You have a nasty habit of blaming the worker bees for their attitudes, but a poor track record of holding leaders accountable for their mediocrity. Don't you find it just a little bit odd how we have our "best and brightest" 2 BTZ cream of the crop PME superstar consistent award winning multiple #1 stratted leaders running the show across the board, yet all of these problems still somehow CONSTANTLY manifest themselves all over the place?

Let me put it this in another way: if a few guys are jaded and lack motivation, you have worker problems. If a ton of guys are pissed off and jaded, and you keep running into the same issues across the board, you have a ######ing leadership problem. But I guess it's easier to bitch at the worker bees than ruffle feathers at the bullshit feel good self-serving country club of AF senior leadership.

Shack!

You know what ADSC stands for right? Palace Chase is a force management tool used when supply exceeds demand. Not just to allow the disgruntled and under performers the opportunity to get out early.

Liquid,

We all know what ADSC stands for. The regulations for ADSC's cleverly keep growing to keep us all bound as indentured servants. We are an all-volunteer force partly because the regulations keep changing creatively trapping folks well beyond a reasonable service period. We keep entertaining and implementing force management measures (RIFs); why have we been so restrictive on Palace Chase for at least the last 5 years? Why do falsify and lie about the VSP? Guys here mention this because of the hints at a RIF next year. I thought that you and GC keep telling us how much folks are free to leave, and how Big Blue needs this to happen to clear out the glut of pilots. Help us help you. You'd be surprised how many folks are ready to explore new frontiers outside of the service.

You say that Palace Chase would just be an easy way for the "disgruntled and under-performers" to leave. You sir are so mistaken. When the indentured servitude contracts expire, I am afraid that those under-performers are the ones that remain en mass. Not all, but the majority of your super-stars and real leaders will move along quietly. You are correct in that some of those do fit the disgruntled category. I think the percentage of those that are disgruntled is rapidly increasing in recent years. Maybe I am wrong about folks leaving in droves in the near future. Time will tell.

Many folks that I know, and myself included, are badly needed in the communities we are in. I am not bragging or boasting, just pointing out that some of your disgruntled leaders are of extreme value and take their jobs or positions of leadership very seriously. I do. We work our hearts out to hack the mission and take care of those below us. We check the boxes because if we decide to stay, we want to be in a position to excel and fix problems that we bitch about here. We learned that on BODN from old crusty dudes and their invaluable wisdom. Almost all of us are certain that we will leave at the first opportunity. Some of us are overtly disgruntled and express this, most are not. I feel that General Welsh understands this but I am also afraid the problem is bigger than anyone can fix in the short term. He has quite a bit on his plate which is the result of cumulative leadership failures before him as well as on the civilian front. Leaders that do not recognize the "bleeding talent" problem will be unable to fix it, period dot. Kind of like an alcoholic that fails to recognize his addiction.

I don't have a personal vested interest in whether or not folks stay or leave. Nor do I really care if the airlines start hiring (even though my personal research indicates the hiring will be more notable than any time since 2001). Unlike in the 90's, the longer ADSCs means that many folks will have more powerful resumes for careers well beyond those offered flying airplanes. Folks in this category have been exposed to combat for a decade, and have leadership experiences that will transcend historical data for separating pilots. My resume will be much stronger than if I had left at 8 years of aviation service. As a senior leader, I hope you will sincerely reflect upon the culture change and state of morale within your up-and-coming AF leaders. We will do fine on the outside, I promise. We will excel where ever we decide to go. If our country calls, we will stand by her side and help win our next war. But, we will not lay down and continue to rot in a culture we find ourselves disassociated with, or in a service we find ourselves at odds with. Believe it or not, the USAF really does need many of us. Nothing personal in these opinions. The USAF is a machine without emotion; we will take GC's thank you and move on to new opportunities.

Internet blogs are a great place to bitch and attack folks you don't agree with. You've been attacked like many others. Like many others have commented, I am very glad to see senior leaders jump in here and expose the inner-workings of the AF and expose current AF beliefs. Your inputs here, while contested and attacked, are welcome and appreciated. A lot of what you say is valid although it may hurt some feelings here or there. Whether or not many of us stick around is to be determined, but I care about my country and the service that better focus on defending her when called upon. Even when I leave, I would love to know that eventually the AF unscrews itself and the Big Blue ship is righted. Please be humble enough to weed through the information posted here and pull out the nuggets of value that can help fix OUR problems in the USAF. Beer is empty and post is done.

[Jaded]

Your post is invalidated by your username. Pervert.