Promotion and PRF Information

[Liquid]

You do realize that senior raters saying this does not help, don't you?

In doing so, you are only:

1) Saying "I didn't do it, and it worked out fine for me." This is invalid, as your reality coming up is no longer the reality faced by the current crop of CGOs.

2) Giving false hope to those who are working their tails off that a very small group of people (definitely in the minority) had things work out well for them.

3) Pissing people off who "played the game" by getting PME and AAD done only to find out that it really wasn't "required" because so-and-so went to PME in-res or got promotion/got a school slot without it. WTF? Consistency. Is it "pay to play" or not?

Thanks for your perspective.

HAF A1 had a "practice bleeding" policy that said you should not do correspondence if you are a select. I followed that guidance because I agreed with it. My bosses said I would be more competitive if I did both, which was probably true. My MAJCOM CC said it may have cost me getting picked up 2 BPZ to O-6. I didn't care because I didn't want to do it while I was a sitting sq cc. Lots of talk at HAF and MAJCOMs about prohibiting correspondence from being in the record for selects, to keep it from being a discriminator. The advice I give is don't do it if you are a select. Most of my selects did it anyway to be competitive for fellowships and early looks. Their choice. The DT didn't care, but the DEDB might. It may be good or bad advice, depending on the senior rater bias and DT preference, but the intent to limit practice bleeding is good. I did SOS, IDE and SDE in residence, so I am consistent with the advice to get it done at every level.

So you want me to be consistent with the advice every other senior leader gives? And not piss people off with my opinions, advice and personal experience? Not sure I can do that.

[Rusty Pipes]

The reality now is, the board uses it to discriminate in the grey zone, so commanders want good dudes to get it done and get promoted. Most Capts that didn't have it done got promoted.

I don't know you or your record as a Commander, but you should probably fill in the rest of the Commanders as to what the "reality" is then. I was a Wing Exec and Group Exec during several O-4 boards over the past few years and even had my Sq CC show me his rack and stack of guys up for the O-4 board as a Flight Commander when the AAD was still masked. They all had one thing in common... whether the number was 10, 20 or 30 folks up for the Board I did not see a single example of a guy who didn't have an AAD ranked above one who did (other than the ocassional guy with an Article 15). I saw multiple 3000 hr EPs (quite impressive for a Capt) who were TDY 300+ days in a year not get DPs while the guy who was dodging missions left and right got a DP because he had his Toro AAD. Granted these guys got promoted, but they sure weren't school selects and were all pretty pissed with the "P" on the PRF.

So I guess when we are talking about reality it doesn't really matter what the gray zone reality of the Board is when they are rubber stamping DP PRFs that were determined on a box checked instead of actual professional performance. For two years in a row at my last Base we had the Wing CC give us the AFPC "Officer" briefing and on the slides it straight up said that not only are they looking at if you had your AAD and PME done is correspondence, but they were looking at when you had it done. In fact for ACSC they said that if it wasn't done in correspondence within a year of you pinning on O-4 that it would hurt you! So apparently completing your PME can apparently be a bad thing. I'm not making this up... this was actually part of the official briefing. I would seriously like to hear your answer as to how this makes sense?

Does the AF want leaders or managers? Because as of right now I'm not seeing many leaders from the O-6 and above group with the exception of a very few... the rest seem like clones of each other who were promoted in the image of their boss.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[Herk Driver]

In fact for ACSC they were said that if it wasn't done in correspondence within a year of you pinning on O-4 that it would hurt you! So apparently completing your PME can apparently be a bad thing. I'm not making this up... this was actually part of the official briefing. I would seriously like to hear your answer as to how this makes s.

AMC has been preaching this for years now...even when the "practice bleeding" memo was still out. They use a stop light chart...completing non-res PME within a year from pin on is green, more than 1 year but less than 2 is yellow, and more than that is red.

[Rusty Pipes]

AMC has been preaching this for years now...even when the "practice bleeding" memo was still out. They use a stop light chart...completing non-res PME within a year from pin on is green, more than 1 year but less than 2 is yellow, and more than that is red.

That was the actual AFPC stoplight chart. I remember the first year it was briefed I was driving back to the office with the OG/CC and he asked what I thought of the brief. I told him that the Wing Commander just briefed every one of his Officers on his Base that not only is box checking more important than being good at your job, but we will essentially select our future Commanders when they are Lieutenants because if you don't start checking the boxes as an LT then its too late. He said, "I 100% agree with everything you just said." But guess what... that same OG/CC still had every O-3 with an AAD ranked higher than every O-3 without one in his PRF rack and stack from the OG (and there were several shit bag box checkers in that group). I even called him out on it when we were shooting the shit in his office (awesome guy that liked to hear blunt opinions from his staff) and the depressing thing was that he said he knew it was BS, but when the Wing CC briefs the whole Wing that not only are they looking to see if your AAD is done but also when you did it that his rack and stack didn't really mean much either way.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[Champ Kind]

I did SOS, IDE and SDE in residence, so I am consistent with the advice to get it done at every level. So you want me to be consistent with the advice every other senior leader gives? And not piss people off with my opinions, advice and personal experience? Not sure I can do that.

I meant consistent expectations. What you did personally was consistent with guidance you were given.

Listen to what Rusty and Herk Driver are telling you... that "practice bleeding" guidance is out there, but not be adhered to. Good on you for following through. It seems as though a majority of your peers are not.

I know for a F A C T that school-selects are still racked and stacked on their 3849s based on whether or not they have it done via correspondence, and the earlier the better counts.

Other than the inflated value you place on our promotion system (asserting that the AF almost always gets it right), and your insistance that fighter pilots condone rape, you seem like a decent person to work for. I know there have to be others like you out there, but conformity is a large part of our culture as officers right now. A lot of your peers seem to be too timid to break from the herd in the way that you say that you have, and that is weighing on their people.

[Herk Driver]

I know for a F A C T that school-selects are still racked and stacked on their 3849s based on whether or not they have it done via correspondence, and the earlier the better counts.

That "practice bleeding" memo needs to be re-written and signed by the CSAF before it will have any value whatsoever. Until the MAJCOMS hear it loud and clear from their boss, it won't matter.

Champ, the 3849 issue you address may not be true at all bases, but it is where you are...

[zach braff]

And what about when you have a certain guidance at one gig but then PCS/PCA somewhere with different guidance? I was in a unit where SOS correspondence was seen as rather silly so I enrolled but never touched it. Then I PCSd to a unit that would not even look at you unless the correspondence was done. Thankfully it was just SOS so that was a quick 4-5 week fix to knock it out, but that situation could really suck were it ACSC or AWC...

So as much as it stinks, because I won't know what the future holds I'll probably be doing the ACSC so as not to screw myself. Thankfully I'm an '05er so it'll be a long time before I have to worry about it! ;-)

zb

[DirkDiggler]

You do realize that senior raters saying this does not help, don't you?

In doing so, you are only:

1) Saying "I didn't do it, and it worked out fine for me." This is invalid, as your reality coming up is no longer the reality faced by the current crop of CGOs.

2) Giving false hope to those who are working their tails off that a very small group of people (definitely in the minority) had things work out well for them.

3) Pissing people off who "played the game" by getting PME and AAD done only to find out that it really wasn't "required" because so-and-so went to PME in-res or got promotion/got a school slot without it. WTF? Consistency. Is it "pay to play" or not?

Thanks for your perspective.

Champ, I understand where you're coming from but I have to give credit to Liquid where its due. I haven't agreed with everything he's posted in the forums but in this case he's bucking the trend of his peers. The guy is saying and practicing exactly what a lot of guys on this forum are looking for. He's strating his people based on job performance as the #1 and living the "not practicing bleeding" policy in his career. I understand the overall frustration for a lot of people when it comes to how OG & WG/CCs strat there people and the relative inconsistency between leaders, bases, and units. I really think it comes down to an issue of real leadership. FWIW, I'm one of those guys in minority you reference above. Didn't do SOS in correspondence, still went in residence. Was an IDE select off the Major's board with only a BAC+. Some guys in leadership really pushed me to get the masters done before the board; I told them I wasn't gonna do that to my family, that I viewed being good the airplane more important than my bullshit AMU degree, I was willing let the chips fall where they may and it worked out. Some guys in leadership also pushed getting ACSC done in-correspondence in the first year as a huge make or break deal. I just started it in my second year and still got the IDE vector I wanted from my senior rater on my 3849. I'm not typing this to blow my own horn but to show that if you have a senior rater who really believes that job performance is #1 things can change. It may be different at my next base (TDY enroute right now) and I'll look like a shitbag for not getting my in-correspondence done early; so be it, its a decision I'm comfortable with. Thus far in my career I've had leadership that flat out stated that your ability to hack the mission is number one, if you weren't good at that they had nothing for you no matter how many boxes you checked. I'm really hoping Gen. Welsh gives his much anticipated vector soon and puts out some overall guidance to senior raters that solidifies what's really important. I really hope this because while I think that the morale in my community is still pretty good, its really bad for a lot of my friends in different parts of the AF, partly due to the factors you and others have mentioned in this thread.

[AnimalMother]

"Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence in your ability to help, or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership." - Colin Powell

One of my favorite quotes of all time. Say what you will about Gen Powell, but he is a sharp dude. My interpretation of this is that leadership is entirely about people. Everyone loves to talk mission mission mission, and that shit is absolutely important, but as a leader, your job is your people. Take care of them, give them direction, enable them to perform the mission, and it will get done. Focus on your people, and they will succeed in the mission. It kills me to see how readily the Air Force accepts losing quality people. Found out today that another 10 dudes have dropped paper in the last month or two...from a single squadron.

[Champ Kind]

Found out today that another 10 dudes have dropped paper in the last month or two...from a single squadron.

is that tracked in some sort of metric, and if so, are leaders held accountable in any way? Not being cynical, just wondering...

That data, to me, is more valuable that 20 unit climate assessments. While the cause does not fall squarely on the shoulder of the "losing" CC, if I was a higher up, I would certainly wonder WTF was going on in a squadron that was losing that many people.

[Herk Driver]

is that tracked in some sort of metric, and if so, are leaders held accountable in any way? Not being cynical, just wondering...

That data, to me, is more valuable that 20 unit climate assessments. While the cause does not fall squarely on the shoulder of the "losing" CC, if I was a higher up, I would certainly wonder WTF was going on in a squadron that was losing that many people.

If I was a higher up, in this situation, I would be figuring out WTF I was doing and what kind of command climate I was setting that was causing this to happen.

[Merged]

I would personally like to see a complete change from how the system works in that you are evaluated on your complete job performance (flying +queep + officership). It would be great to see boards do away with "school selects" at the Maj board. If everyone continued to compete for a school slot during your eligible years then i think the system would better select the right people to vector for in-residence IDE. The caveat to this is that school slots are allocated to each year group and that IDE CANNOT be completed in-correspondance until after you are out of your three "looks". This would reward people that continue to excel at their primary job throughout the entire eligibility time period. Obviously as a "candidate" I may be biased in this thought but I see a lot of "selects" that peak early and somewhat coast. If Liquid is correct in that "candidate" slots will completely dry up for the next 3-4 years, I think the perceived level of satisfaction that the majority of people will have with Big Blue will continue to spiral. I get it that we are under tough financial times but cutting career advancement requirements like in-res PME is the wrong way to go. Now if we change the system to where "done" is "done" (in-res vs correspondance) are the same then we may be better off all together. Look at Gen Welsh's bio...he didnt go to PME in residence once...but that was a different day.

[Vprdrvr69]

One of my favorite quotes of all time. Say what you will about Gen Powell, but he is a sharp dude. My interpretation of this is that leadership is entirely about people. Everyone loves to talk mission mission mission, and that shit is absolutely important, but as a leader, your job is your people. Take care of them, give them direction, enable them to perform the mission, and it will get done. Focus on your people, and they will succeed in the mission. It kills me to see how readily the Air Force accepts losing quality people. Found out today that another 10 dudes have dropped paper in the last month or two...from a single squadron.

...hence the reason 11S is at the very top of the stressed AFSC list (in red). But nothing to see there according to A1.

[Herk Driver]

Some good words...

I will add to the pile...(posting while drinking, so bear with me)

Dudes, i hear what you are saying...no one wants to hear that they are not measuring up to the pack or that they are falling behind. Some on here are in that group and some are not. You know who you are. Let me say up front that box checking for the sake of box checking is bullshit, but there are times when you need to shut up and color to benefit yourself. For example, doing SOS in correspondence, in case you are not able to attend in residence, due to mission requirements, is probably something that should be done. Requiring a dude to do correspondence before being considered for residence is BS. However, mission requirements may preclude a dude from going so I am going to encourage people to get correspondence completed so they don't inadvertantly screw themselves.

On a side note, I get a little more pissed everytime that someone gets on here and perpetuates the argument that all the good dudes get out and the AF is left with those guys that cannot fight their way out of a wet paper sack. Everyday the AF loses some of the shitbags and some of the good dudes. Everyday. Everyone has different reasons to stay and to go. Sometimes, Commanders help people out the door because they don't need to be in our AF anymore. Everyone is a tough decision and they are all getting screwed (if you listen to them). I would caution you to not assume that you know the full story when normally all you have is your buddies bitching about how he got screwed by the man. In fairness, I acknowledge that the system is not perfect and that some dudes get screwed over while others skate. However, the idea that all Sq/CC's are BTZ dudes that are only pleasuring their bosses daily and none of them are out there trying to fix their part of the world is 100% inaccurate. Realize Sq/CC's have bosses just like you do and their sphere of influence is relatively small. Sometimes they sit behind closed doors for hours discussing (arguing) with their bosses about certain problems. In the end, when decisions are reached, they do their jobs by carrying out those decisions without bitching to those junior to them. You will never know what happened behind the scenes, but rest assured there are dudes out there fighting the good fight. They do not always win.

Back to the topic at hand, I loath the way the AF values AADs. I have no problem with the AF asking me to accomplish PME. IMO, we should all strive to be the best at our jobs and we should all strive to learn more about our service and accomplish PME when required. Some of you will disagree with that and that is OK. On a personal note, I never did SOS in correspondence...I went in residence. In retrospect, that was a mistake as I nearly did not have an opportunity to attend due to a PCS and retraining as I was late-rated. In my case, it worked out.

I was fortunate to be an IDE select and was at the early stages of the "practice bleeding" memo signed by the AF/A1, Lt Gen Brady. Against my Sq/CC's advice, I choose to roll the dice by not doing ACSC in correspondence or an AAD. I chose to be the best I could at flying and leading people. Fortunately, it worked out for me and I got both PME and my AAD through IDE in my last look. Continuing to do the best you can at your JOB is still the best thing you can do to make yourself valuable to the AF, IMHO. Later, I was fortunate enough to be promoted and was an SDE select. I did learn my lesson and did correspondence SDE since I knew the end of the road was approaching if I did not.

Some of you have probably figured out who I am by this point and my history of posts. That is OK. Some of you have read my other posts and whether you agree with everything I support on this sight, or in real life, you will learn that you will always get the straight scoop from me. I have noticed that many of you just want to rage against the machine. Some want to bitch just because you know the AF will never get all of it right. However, there are so many ways for dudes to succeed in the AF. Regardless of what I read here, I do not agree that there is only one way for a guy to succeed or that there is only one path for a guy to follow to make it to Sq/CC or higher.

Set your goals and work hard. Put the mission first and stop being mired in the qweep. I always expected my Sq/CCs to be able to wade through the qweep and be the shit shield so that I could do my J-O-B. But, I also knew that I had an obligation to help him by keeping the BS off his plate and not attracting negative attention to myself or my crew and/or handling those situations at my level when possible. I have not always seen this happen...on either side.

There are oppotunities out there for all of us.

[backseatdriver]

Look at Gen Welsh's bio...he didnt go to PME in residence once...but that was a different day.

Apparently you included this without actually looking at his bio yourself - he went to CGSC and National War College...after completing ACSC and AWC in correspondence first.

https://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7550

[Danny Noonin]

Three of your four observations about how senior leaders don't get it is that we don't acknowledge things. Acknowledged. You can do better than that, but it was a good start.

...so fire away, I'm listening.

I'm not convinced you are truly listening yet. I believe that you think you're listening but your response to me (and to others in general) has basically been to try and pick apart what is said and pull out examples of why the don't apply to you. It wasn't about you.

I don't know you. Maybe they really don't apply to you. But I'm guessing there's not a commander on earth who thinks they apply to him either. And I bet all of them can cherry pick examples to support their opinion of themselves, too. Food for thought.

I'm not going to rebut your rebuttal, but for one point: bitching is not toxic. Whining is toxic. Copy, I'm making up my own dictionary and maybe I'm lawyering the words, but whining is bitching without solutions. I WANT young dudes to bitch because that implies they propose solutions. I want them to identify problems big and small and I WANT them to think of solutions for all of them. It's not toxic, its heathy. Most of the time, they'll completely miss the big picture with their proposed solutions and that's fine. They'll figure it out as time goes on and their experience broadens. They'll figure it out when they feel comfortable enough to have those discussions openly with their ADOs, DOs, CCs, OGs, wing kings, etc who can offer them a different perspective based on their own experiences (assuming they spend the time to associate with their guys in informal settings). It's how they learn. It's how young officers grow and develop. It's how folks learn to see a picture bigger than they previously considered. It's fucking required to be a force that isn't satisfied with mediocrity and treading water. I'm not convinced we truly are that force anymore. There is not a championship team on earth who says "yeah, we have this all figured out". The good ones all point out what they need to work on before the next game--even after a win. But the blue kool aid brigade insists that everything is fine. Nothing to see here. Just keep patting ourselves on the back and whatever you do, don't bitch--it's cancer. But that's not a winning formula. That's a path to self-serving mediocrity, yes men, group think and irrelevance. Sometimes the emperor really does not have any clothes. And it's not toxic to say so. It's solemn duty. It's the only way we get better.

I say all of that yet fully acknowledge its a fine line between constructive bitching and toxic whining. I get that.

Like I said, probably semantics.

As for "acknowledging things", nice try. Either that whole post sailed right by you or you really are that aloof. You can do better than that.

But then again I could be wrong. I was wrong once before.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Danny Noonin

[Rusty Pipes]

However, the idea that all Sq/CC's are BTZ dudes that are only pleasuring their bosses daily and none of them are out there trying to fix their part of the world is 100% inaccurate. Realize Sq/CC's have bosses just like you do and their sphere of influence is relatively small. Sometimes they sit behind closed doors for hours discussing (arguing) with their bosses about certain problems. In the end, when decisions are reached, they do their jobs by carrying out those decisions without bitching to those junior to them. You will never know what happened behind the scenes, but rest assured there are dudes out there fighting the good fight. They do not always win.

The problem is that you cannot effect change at a Squadron or even at a Wing Level. I applaud Liquid if he says that he ranked his Capt #1 because he was great at his job even though he didn't have SOS and/or his AAD. It works out great for that one guy, but if only one Wing CC is willing to do something like that then it really doesn't do anything. In fact it can actually hurt his people because like someone said earlier, he can say don't bother getting your AAD and then when the next Wing CC has the opposite view you are screwed. I've got some good buds who are currently Sq CCs... some are 2 BPZ Intern types, others were IPZ dudes who went to School as candidates. They can fight the good fight all they want (and they do), but if you don't have several 4 Stars (including the CSAF) buying off on it then it doesn't really matter in the long run. The peak of frustration comes when you hear the majority of these guys say, "I know it is stupid, but just check the box so that... X,Y,Z".

[Herk Driver]

The problem is that you cannot effect change at a Squadron or even at a Wing Level. I applaud Liquid if he says that he ranked his Capt #1 because he was great at his job even though he didn't have SOS and/or his AAD. It works out great for that one guy, but if only one Wing CC is willing to do something like that then it really doesn't do anything. In fact it can actually hurt his people because like someone said earlier, he can say don't bother getting your AAD and then when the next Wing CC has the opposite view you are screwed. I've got some good buds who are currently Sq CCs... some are 2 BPZ Intern types, others were IPZ dudes who went to School as candidates. They can fight the good fight all they want (and they do), but if you don't have several 4 Stars (including the CSAF) buying off on it then it doesn't really matter in the long run. The peak of frustration comes when you hear the majority of these guys say, "I know it is stupid, but just check the box so that... X,Y,Z".

So, every Wg/CC and below should give up and quit?

Why are you still posting?

[Rusty Pipes]

So, every Wg/CC and below should give up and quit?

Why are you still posting?

No, I'm saying that much of what is being said at the Wing level and below is either not being heard or is being ignored at the highest levels. Like anyone else, even the 4 BPZ super fast burning Wing CC only gets one "but, Sir". They eventually have to fall in line or they are done... it is those at the very top who decide what "falling in line" looks like, so unless they buy off on it nothing will change.

EDIT: Or they hear what is being said, but feel their view is better. It may be, but lots of Generals have also had what they thought was the best idea that didn't work out so well when all was said and done.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[Merged]

Apparently you included this without actually looking at his bio yourself - he went to CGSC and National War College...after completing ACSC and AWC in correspondence first.

https://www.af.mil/in....asp?bioID=7550

I missed that when i was looking over the bio. You are 100% correct

Edited July 9, 2013 by Merged

[Herk Driver]

No, I'm saying that much of what is being said at the Wing level and below is either not being heard or is being ignored at the highest levels. Like anyone else, even the 4 BPZ super fast burning Wing CC only gets one "but, Sir". They eventually have to fall in line or they are done... it is those at the very top who decide what "falling in line" looks like, so unless they buy off on it nothing will change.

No argument that some words fall on deaf ears...I am saying that there are some good dudes out there trying to do the "right thing" and trying to make a difference in their corner of the world. That is all you can control is your part of Big Blue. Institutional changes take more time.

Liquid apparently effected change in his corner of the world, i.e. the guy who got school. Wg/CCs and Sq/CCs can effect change and so can each one of you. My rack and stack did NOT have all the folks with completed AADs at the top and that is what happened with the final version of events. Did I get everything that I wanted? No, but I was able to shape the results and for what I believed to be a better end product. Maybe I am missing it, but this defeatist attitude really gets under my skin.

[DirkDiggler]

I would personally like to see a complete change from how the system works in that you are evaluated on your complete job performance (flying +queep + officership). It would be great to see boards do away with "school selects" at the Maj board. If everyone continued to compete for a school slot during your eligible years then i think the system would better select the right people to vector for in-residence IDE. The caveat to this is that school slots are allocated to each year group and that IDE CANNOT be completed in-correspondance until after you are out of your three "looks". This would reward people that continue to excel at their primary job throughout the entire eligibility time period. Obviously as a "candidate" I may be biased in this thought but I see a lot of "selects" that peak early and somewhat coast. If Liquid is correct in that "candidate" slots will completely dry up for the next 3-4 years, I think the perceived level of satisfaction that the majority of people will have with Big Blue will continue to spiral. I get it that we are under tough financial times but cutting career advancement requirements like in-res PME is the wrong way to go. Now if we change the system to where "done" is "done" (in-res vs correspondance) are the same then we may be better off all together. Look at Gen Welsh's bio...he didnt go to PME in residence once...but that was a different day.

Totally RUMINT, but I've heard through the grapevine that this is one of the things Gen. Welsh wants to push forward. Source was fairly low so it could be completely wrong. I think it would be change for the better; I have several bros whose timing pretty much completely screwed them out of any chance of being competitive for school, guys that I think would have been solid candidates otherwise.

[Rusty Pipes]

My rack and stack did NOT have all the folks with completed AADs at the top and that is what happened with the final version of events. Did I get everything that I wanted? No, but I was able to shape the results and for what I believed to be a better end product.

That is great and I applaud you for doing that... if more Commanders were willing to do that then this thread would probably be 2-3 pages long.

[Liquid]

I'm not convinced you are truly listening yet. I believe that you think you're listening but your response to me (and to others in general) has basically been to try and pick apart what is said and pull out examples of why the don't apply to you. It wasn't about you.

I don't know you. Maybe they really don't apply to you. But I'm guessing there's not a commander on earth who thinks they apply to him either. And I bet all of them can cherry pick examples to support their opinion of themselves, too. Food for thought.

I'm not going to rebut your rebuttal, but for one point: bitching is not toxic. Whining is toxic. Copy, I'm making up my own dictionary and maybe I'm lawyering the words, but whining is bitching without solutions. I WANT young dudes to bitch because that implies they propose solutions. I want them to identify problems big and small and I WANT them to think of solutions for all of them. It's not toxic, its heathy. Most of the time, they'll completely miss the big picture with their proposed solutions and that's fine. They'll figure it out as time goes on and their experience broadens. They'll figure it out when they feel comfortable enough to have those discussions openly with their ADOs, DOs, CCs, OGs, wing kings, etc who can offer them a different perspective based on their own experiences (assuming they spend the time to associate with their guys in informal settings). It's how they learn. It's how young officers grow and develop. It's how folks learn to see a picture bigger than they previously considered. It's ######ing required to be a force that isn't satisfied with mediocrity and treading water. I'm not convinced we truly are that force anymore. There is not a championship team on earth who says "yeah, we have this all figured out". The good ones all point out what they need to work on before the next game--even after a win. But the blue kool aid brigade insists that everything is fine. Nothing to see here. Just keep patting ourselves on the back and whatever you do, don't bitch--it's cancer. But that's not a winning formula. That's a path to self-serving mediocrity, yes men, group think and irrelevance. Sometimes the emperor really does not have any clothes. And it's not toxic to say so. It's solemn duty. It's the only way we get better.

I say all of that yet fully acknowledge its a fine line between constructive bitching and toxic whining. I get that.

Like I said, probably semantics.

As for "acknowledging things", nice try. Either that whole post sailed right by you or you really are that aloof. You can do better than that.

But then again I could be wrong. I was wrong once before.

I like your distinction between whining and bitching.

Sailed by or aloof. Nice false choice. Reread my response without the "you talk about yourself too much" angle. I agreed with some of your points and disagreed with others. I used personal past and present experiences to illustrate my points. I stand by my criticism that you said we aristocrats fail to acknowledge we are run ragged, get bad deals and face uncertainty when you could have used much better examples.

Explain to me the you can't polish a turd comment with regard to bad deals. Isn't that something leaders are supposed to do? If a commander can't change your "bullshit" aircraft assignment (RPAs, FAIP), your undesirable base location (Creech, Cannon), the fiscal crisis (no money to train), your ops tempo (supporting unpopular and "not real" wars) or the lack of needed guidance from HAF, what is this commander supposed to do? Whine and bitch with them in the bar or just quit? Or motivate them to get the mission done with hard work, long hours, lousy conditions and no appreciation from peers? An important part of leadership is getting your people to buy into the mission (even unpopular ones), overcome the obstacles, give more than they thought they could give, take care of their families and somehow enjoy it enough to do it all again tomorrow. This requires what you call polishing a turd and what you say no one respects. I have used the "stop whining" tactic successfully. It is incredible how you can change a culture by eliminating the few toxic whiners. It creates breathing space and opportunity for the creative, talented and dedicated. I mistakenly called out who I thought were toxic whiners on this forum, when they are actually bitchers with good ideas. But I do know that there are toxic whiners who need to get the f*ck off the team because they are crushing the mission. Managers acquire new "turds", create force management policies and prioritize requirements in fiscally constrained environments. Leaders get the mission done and take care of their people with what they are given. Many times I've been given a f*ing turd and had to polish the shit out of it. I've had reasonable success getting the mission done and getting people to realize it wasn't a turd after all, it was their biases, bad attitudes and small sight picture that they needed help with.

Final shot, there are a whole lot of people here who claim to be against box checking careerism, but are intimately familiar with the promotion system, like careerists are. I didn't know or care what a school select was when they told me I was one at my Maj board. I didn't want to give up flying for school and staff, but I went where my DT told me to go and did every job I was assigned to. I go where the AF needs me to go because that is why I serve. I am a believer in the concepts of duty and service, so I get a little bent over the "I'm not appreciated or adequately compensated" comments. Do your damn job very well and it should work out. If not, you did your best, served well and at least didn't get caught up with the careerist bullshit.

[slackline]

Final shot, there are a whole lot of people here who claim to be against box checking careerism, but are intimately familiar with the promotion system, like careerists are. I didn't know or care what a school select was when they told me I was one at my Maj board. I didn't want to give up flying for school and staff, but I went where my DT told me to go and did every job I was assigned to. I go where the AF needs me to go because that is why I serve. I am a believer in the concepts of duty and service, so I get a little bent over the "I'm not appreciated or adequately compensated" comments. Do your damn job very well and it should work out. If not, you did your best, served well and at least didn't get caught up with the careerist bullshit.

Say what you want about his posts, but this paragraph, to me, is golden. A little bit of the high horse in there, but it's a very solid point. I did start out simply for the service, and flying, and somewhere along the way I got bitter. The Air Force, on its own fixed it for me without too much finagling on my part. I've been upfront with every boss I've ever had on my attitude towards AADs. I wasn't an idiot, and I didn't burn bridges, but I always told them I'd never do it. Mission and family (self, if not married) always came first. Bros are included in those two options. I am not so naive as to think it will work out for most, but I was willing to accept the results I basically earned by not doing the garbage degree, at all.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of crap wrong with Big Blue, but I'm, at this point, willing to stick it out to see what else I can do. Hopefully, that's effect change for the positive.