Promotion and PRF Information

[Rusty Pipes]

I honestly think the dubious and inconsistent quality of the leaders is a causal factor as to why we sometimes get sent to the cheap seats when it comes to joint operations. It seems like there is far more confidence in an Army, Navy, or USMC O-5 leading something (anything) than an Air Force O-5. At least, that's the impression I get. Sure would be an interesting straw poll.

I was drinking my 7th third beer at the MUFF one night with a Navy and Marine O-6 who were both Wing CC equivalents at home, but deployed to the CAOC (both flyers, both great dudes) who were "venting" to me about the young AF guys they had working for them. It completely blew them away that these guys were on a "combat" deployment and they were working on PME and AADs... neither of them could even comprehend it. They were asking me about it in the hopes of calling BS on these guys who as young Capts and Lts told them they needed to get their AADs and SOS done in cor or they wouldn't get promoted and that being deployed was the easiest time for them to do it... not only that, doing it while deployed was highly encouraged by their Commanders. When I confirmed what their guys told them and that it was what was being pushed by Commanders the response from the Marine O-6 was, "No offense, but shit like that is why nobody takes you guys too seriously from the other services. If one of my Marine Capt pilots working for me was taking Masters classes over here I'd kick his ass because that's not why he is here!"

[slackline]

I have a sincere question. What happens when you're just a run of the mill, average pilot? From reading these posts it would seem to be inferred that you're all a bunch of golden hands! I am an average pilot. I can do everything in my mission set safely. Are there people that do it worse? Yep. Are there people that do it better? You bet. I know my mission, and I'm very good in the 3-1 dept because that's something in my control, but is the fact that I'm not Chuck Yeager a disqualifying factor in me being a good leader?

I'm honestly curious because a young pup reading these posts might just think, "well, that's it, I'll never do anything important because I'm not the best out there." I fly a crew aircraft. I fly in some pretty gnarly situations, and I'll be the first to admit that I was just not as blessed as some in the "hands" department. I'm a great instructor, and I'm always safe. I've been lucky enough to get lucky in some of the worst situations.

I have always busted my arse working hard, and been trusted by my crews and leadership. AAD's are something I've always avoided like the plague, I had to do SOS on a waiver because of deployments, TDY's etc not permitting me to go before, and I've done ACSC in correspondence because I was basically told "or else". Rescue continues, in my very biased opinion, to be one area where we've had excellent leadership the majority of the time. My current assignment has pulled me away from USAF Rescue for the last three years, so maybe that's changed, but I doubt it.

Long winded way to say that IMO, being the best pilot isn't the only important thing. I acknowledge that most of you aren't saying it is, but I just want to clear that up for young guys. You should never stop trying to be better, but realize that, like I always tell my 10 yr old son, there's always someone better. Being a great "real" officer is more important than being a great pilot. I think a lot of you are saying it, but I'll just spell it out. Being a great officer in the Air Force doesn't always mean you'll be the best pilot, but it does mean you'll never stop trying. And, just to be clear, in today's climate being a great officer doesn't mean you'll get promoted. I think it'll be rare that the truly great ones get passed over, but it happens, and that's what you have to be prepared for. Sometimes being a great officer means pissing off your boss, and that has ramifications.

I hope that made sense. Long day, it's hot, and I actually got to fly. Time for bed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Rusty Pipes]

I have a sincere question. What happens when you're just a run of the mill, average pilot? From reading these posts it would seem to be inferred that you're all a bunch of golden hands! I am an average pilot. I can do everything in my mission set safely. Are there people that do it worse? Yep. Are there people that do it better? You bet. I know my mission, and I'm very good in the 3-1 dept because that's something in my control, but is the fact that I'm not Chuck Yeager a disqualifying factor in me being a good leader?

I'm honestly curious because a young pup reading these posts might just think, "well, that's it, I'll never do anything important because I'm not the best out there." I fly a crew aircraft. I fly in some pretty gnarly situations, and I'll be the first to admit that I was just not as blessed as some in the "hands" department. I'm a great instructor, and I'm always safe. I've been lucky enough to get lucky in some of the worst situations.

I don't think it is a matter of being the best pilot, it matters what you are focusing on. If you don't know your Ops Limits or weather mins on a flight on the deployment and when you land you spend your free time working on your AAD then it is a problem. The bigger problem is if your supervisors are saying that if you had to pick which one to work on then you should work on your AAD. Are Commanders coming straight out and saying this... doubtful. Is that the message they are sending on a daily basis... absolutely!

Getting the point yet, Liquid? I'm certainly not saying that you did this... I'll take your word that you did the opposite which is great. It is the message that is getting to the young pups... intentional or not; it is coming from their bosses and from the looks of the past 42 pages of this thread it certainly isn't MWS specific.

[AnimalMother]

is that tracked in some sort of metric, and if so, are leaders held accountable in any way? Not being cynical, just wondering...

That data, to me, is more valuable that 20 unit climate assessments. While the cause does not fall squarely on the shoulder of the "losing" CC, if I was a higher up, I would certainly wonder WTF was going on in a squadron that was losing that many people.

Can't tell you if/how that data is being tracked, but apparently, leadership response was along the lines of "well, we'll just plan for slightly higher attrition." This type of thing doesn't seem to really get their attention. Only when the #1 or #2 dude in the wing drops paper do they seem to make an effort to convince them to stay. I think they see it as an insult to the invitation to the cult of the anointed.

[BuddhaSixFour]

I have a sincere question. What happens when you're just a run of the mill, average pilot? From reading these posts it would seem to be inferred that you're all a bunch of golden hands! I am an average pilot. I can do everything in my mission set safely. Are there people that do it worse? Yep. Are there people that do it better? You bet. I know my mission, and I'm very good in the 3-1 dept because that's something in my control, but is the fact that I'm not Chuck Yeager a disqualifying factor in me being a good leader?

I had a long debate about this once with a school select friend who has mediocre hands. I came into it arguing you need good piloting skills to lead in the ops world. He, obviously, felt you didn't. I think we settled in the right place...

I don't think you need stellar hands. You do need competent hands with stellar judgement, experience, and knowledge. Without those, how is a leader/commander supposed to make decisions regarding flying? How are they going to judge risk versus reward? How are they going to identify and set standards of performance or develop reasonable squadron flying policies? If you can do those things well, along with the other thousand things leadership entails, your hands just need to be good enough to not undermine your credibility.

When I had a commander fail to meet that criteria, I didn't directly care that he was a bad stick. I did care that he made bad decisions and created meaningless restrictions based on his own fears, shortcomings, and misunderstandings of the aircraft.

[guineapigfury]

Looking at PRFs is probably a good idea, but do enough guys have Q2s and Q3s for this to be a useful discriminator? I've been in 7 years and I know about 6 guys with Q3s. Half of those were good to excellent pilots (including one patchwearer). My other concern here is that there is no similar event to a checkride with which to evaluate MSG types.

[Vetter]

I've seen a General drop a JDAM on friendly coords (thankfully, they were fully retrograded). Nothing happened.

A Wing Commander dropped a BDU on a Maverick pass on a check ride. He got a downgrade.

I have numerous other examples. Bottom line, we shouldn't expect too much out of our senior leaders tactically because they are too busy leading. Gone are the days of Sr leaders having street cred (some do, most don't). So, I'd venture to say after one makes O-6, hands don't matter. So why should hands matter for the chosen ones making it to the coveted Sr leader level?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Vetter

[Danny Noonin]

Good discussion all around

Explain to me the you can't polish a turd comment with regard to bad deals. Isn't that something leaders are supposed to do? If a commander can't change your "bullshit" aircraft assignment (RPAs, FAIP), your undesirable base location (Creech, Cannon), the fiscal crisis (no money to train), your ops tempo (supporting unpopular and "not real" wars) or the lack of needed guidance from HAF, what is this commander supposed to do? Whine and bitch with them in the bar or just quit? Or motivate them to get the mission done with hard work, long hours, lousy conditions and no appreciation from peers? An important part of leadership is getting your people to buy into the mission (even unpopular ones), overcome the obstacles, give more than they thought they could give, take care of their families and somehow enjoy it enough to do it all again tomorrow. This requires what you call polishing a turd and what you say no one respects...Many times I've been given a f*ing turd and had to polish the shit out of it.

I respect what you're saying and agree with it for the most part. I think were into semantics. What you call polishing a turd is what I call having a positive attitude and making the best of things. As in bitching vs whining, i see those as different things. A turd is still a turd and can't be shined into granite. When CCs at any level try to sell to some young pup that that 179 with three weeks notice than means he'll miss the birth of his first kid is really a great deal because he'll be able to get X kind of stink on his resume, that's polishing a turd to me. It's not a good deal and everyone knows it. It might be a great professional experience for a guy in the end, but it's a fucking turd. I've seen that crap. That kid didn't give a shit about his résumé at that point and that CC was full of crap. Other obvious example: a CC with 3,000 hours telling some poor kid who dreamed of flying his whole life and had his wings for just a year that he'll never fly a manned airplane again (TAMI) and what an awesome deal that really was. Any bullshit pep talk in cases like that are disingenuous at best and take away all credibility for that cc. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade instead of being a spin meister. Dudes respect honesty out of their leaders. Don't you? Spin is rarely totally honest and everyone can see through that crap.

That does not mean that CCs can't lead by positive attitude and point out the opportunities and the unconsidered bright sides of bad deals. But that doesn't make them stop being a bad deal to a guy who just got the news. Being unhappy about a deal does not necessarily make one toxic and doesn't mean that guy won't bloom and excel where he's planted and/or eventually love what he originally thought was a turd.

Am I making sense? Positive attitude but no bullshit. That's what dudes need.

[BFM this]

Polishing a turd: Leadership

Piss on my back and tell me it's raining: Not leadership.

[ViperStud]

Dudes we do not want FEFs part of the rack and stack process. I've been chief of Stan/Eval in two squadrons and I can tell you there is some blood in FEFs and it might surprise you who has it. There are above average pilots with Q2/3s in their records and total limfacs with Q1 no hits all day every day. I've had CCs want to fly dudes with specific FEs to either get them exposure or to set a dude up for success.

I am what I consider a very big picture and objective FE but there are a lot of others with agendas. A past CC flew with his golden boy and have him an EQ on an average ride, but who is going to question it? Be careful what you wish for. I'd rather have leadership be able to assess their pilots based on day-to-day observations rather than check rides a previous bases that may have had an agenda behind them. Check rides are just a snapshot anyway, not aleays a valid overall assessment of a pilot's skill.

[General Chang]

Just an observation and a couple of questions...

It seems like there are about 15-20 guys on this thread that are really fed up with the Air Force personnel system and want to do something about it. That is admirable.

As pointed out, there's nothing you can currently do from your position, except point out the flaws to your leadership and maybe post some thoughts in this (or similar) forums. Again, admirable as long as it's not whining.

Therefore, if you really want to change the system, yet you can't from your current position, why not:

1) Aspire to leadership;

2) Do what the current system requires of you to become a Commander; and

3) Do your best to implement your agenda once you are a Squadron Commander or above?

Many excuses are bound to fly from these suggestions. I'm sure the biggest one from folks like Rusty will be, "GC, I've served with Squadron, Group, and Wing Commanders, and trust me, they have no ability to make changes." Or some of you may quote Tony Carr (great dude) and say, "GC, if Tony couldn't implement change and left, what shot do I have?" Well, I'll come back at you with some of the logic several of you have used against Liquid. Your Commanders in the past, to include Tony, hit a wall with their specific leadership. When you are in Command someday, who's to say that you won't have the exact leadership above you to hear your voice and implement change? You say to Liquid that times were different when he came up in the AF. True. But Commanders might be different in the future from what they are right now. Same logic.

Young officers (especially Captains; Rusty, you're old, it's probably too late for you, my friend), if you feel so strongly that you have a better way, why not do what today's system requires of you in order to become a Commander and have a shot at change. Who knows- you may be hitting your head against a wall when you're a CC. Then again, you may have the perfect leadership team above you to make a difference in your subordinates' lives. I guarantee you, if you're still in the Air Force around the 17 year point, and some doofus is your Squadron Commander, and he has amazing leadership above him that is open to instituting change, you're going to wish you'd done your AAD and PME back when you were a Captain, however distasteful, in order to be in his position and make a difference.

Young guys reading this thread- I know you're out there lurking in the shadows- everything Rusty, Champ, Animal, Vetter, Liquid, etc are saying about be the best you can be at your primary job above all else is absolutely correct. Don't even bother trying if you're not putting the mission first (alongside your family). But don't close doors later in your career to buck the system now; close those doors in a decade or so, when you're bucking the system as a Squadron/Group/Wing Commander, standing up unequivocally for what you think is best for the mission and your Airmen.

Thoughts?

[FUSEPLUG]

Polishing a turd: Leadership

Piss on my back and tell me it's raining: Not leadership. TACC.

FIFY

[Liquid]

Good discussion all around

I respect what you're saying and agree with it for the most part. I think were into semantics. What you call polishing a turd is what I call having a positive attitude and making the best of things. As in bitching vs whining, i see those as different things. A turd is still a turd and can't be shined into granite. When CCs at any level try to sell to some young pup that that 179 with three weeks notice than means he'll miss the birth of his first kid is really a great deal because he'll be able to get X kind of stink on his resume, that's polishing a turd to me. It's not a good deal and everyone knows it. It might be a great professional experience for a guy in the end, but it's a ######ing turd. I've seen that crap. That kid didn't give a shit about his résumé at that point and that CC was full of crap. Other obvious example: a CC with 3,000 hours telling some poor kid who dreamed of flying his whole life and had his wings for just a year that he'll never fly a manned airplane again (TAMI) and what an awesome deal that really was. Any bullshit pep talk in cases like that are disingenuous at best and take away all credibility for that cc. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade instead of being a spin meister. Dudes respect honesty out of their leaders. Don't you? Spin is rarely totally honest and everyone can see through that crap.

That does not mean that CCs can't lead by positive attitude and point out the opportunities and the unconsidered bright sides of bad deals. But that doesn't make them stop being a bad deal to a guy who just got the news. Being unhappy about a deal does not necessarily make one toxic and doesn't mean that guy won't bloom and excel where he's planted and/or eventually love what he originally thought was a turd.

Am I making sense? Positive attitude but no bullshit. That's what dudes need.

You are spot on Noonin. Thanks for the perspective.

[brickhistory]

Therefore, if you really want to change the system, yet you can't from your current position, why not:

1) Aspire to leadership;

2) Do what the current system requires of you to become a Commander; and

3) Do your best to implement your agenda once you are a Squadron Commander or above?

By God, if only someone, somewhere had thought of this before. Say since 1947...

It's thinking like this that is gonna take this great nation all the way to California one day.

edited to add: The system is like it is because the system, i.e., those running it want it that way. It worked for them, why shouldn't that be the measure of success? Otherwise, you invalidate their achievement.

And, again, this is not a new phenomena. Look at the b1tches from the Vietnam era. Look at it from the 1980s.

Edited July 10, 2013 by brickhistory

[busdriver]

Look at the b1tches from the Vietnam era. Look at it from the 1980s.

It can work, look what happened when a non-patch got command of the F-4 WIC and changed the foundation of the way the AF trains. If CR Anderegg is to be believed the AF method of building blocks and crawl-walk-run came from post Vietnam bitches. It can happen, but you can't forget where you came from, and you have to put the mission first. I don't like where the AF promotion system is at right now, but I guess I'm an optimist and I think that it can still be fixed.

I don't think anyone can argue that advanced education is a good thing, so let's get rid of the box-checking AAD and make a new category that acknowledges all kinds of advanced education (TPS, WIC, AFIT, Various real degree programs, etc). Diversity is good right? So let's reward diversity of advanced education.

[disgruntledemployee]

Just an observation and a couple of questions...

It seems like there are about 15-20 guys on this thread that are really fed up with the Air Force personnel system and want to do something about it. That is admirable.

As pointed out, there's nothing you can currently do from your position, except point out the flaws to your leadership and maybe post some thoughts in this (or similar) forums. Again, admirable as long as it's not whining.

Therefore, if you really want to change the system, yet you can't from your current position, why not:

1) Aspire to leadership;

2) Do what the current system requires of you to become a Commander; and

3) Do your best to implement your agenda once you are a Squadron Commander or above?

Many excuses are bound to fly from these suggestions. I'm sure the biggest one from folks like Rusty will be, "GC, I've served with Squadron, Group, and Wing Commanders, and trust me, they have no ability to make changes." Or some of you may quote Tony Carr (great dude) and say, "GC, if Tony couldn't implement change and left, what shot do I have?" Well, I'll come back at you with some of the logic several of you have used against Liquid. Your Commanders in the past, to include Tony, hit a wall with their specific leadership. When you are in Command someday, who's to say that you won't have the exact leadership above you to hear your voice and implement change? You say to Liquid that times were different when he came up in the AF. True. But Commanders might be different in the future from what they are right now. Same logic.

Young officers (especially Captains; Rusty, you're old, it's probably too late for you, my friend), if you feel so strongly that you have a better way, why not do what today's system requires of you in order to become a Commander and have a shot at change. Who knows- you may be hitting your head against a wall when you're a CC. Then again, you may have the perfect leadership team above you to make a difference in your subordinates' lives. I guarantee you, if you're still in the Air Force around the 17 year point, and some doofus is your Squadron Commander, and he has amazing leadership above him that is open to instituting change, you're going to wish you'd done your AAD and PME back when you were a Captain, however distasteful, in order to be in his position and make a difference.

Young guys reading this thread- I know you're out there lurking in the shadows- everything Rusty, Champ, Animal, Vetter, Liquid, etc are saying about be the best you can be at your primary job above all else is absolutely correct. Don't even bother trying if you're not putting the mission first (alongside your family). But don't close doors later in your career to buck the system now; close those doors in a decade or so, when you're bucking the system as a Squadron/Group/Wing Commander, standing up unequivocally for what you think is best for the mission and your Airmen.

Thoughts?

The Sq/CC battlefield is littered with tons of balls smashed flat by hammers. I use the analogy because I've seen over and over again what happens to Sq/CCs that fight the good fight. I've shared many a beer while discussing the frustrations.

Maybe you guys were blessed with bosses that let you run your units and stayed out of your business. Maybe you had CCs above you that didn't micromanage everything. Maybe you were able to truely promote your best people regardless of checked boxes, you know, got them to SOS, DPs, School slots, awards, etc. Or maybe you had to make some of your people sign up for SOS so that the CCs above you would listen to you that Bob was the best and needed to go next.

Before I go, I share a small story of one of those "amazing" leaders about the Sq level. Over beer one day, he talked about a promotion board he sat on. He was talking about scoring, the process, etc. He said that he would give extra to guys that checked the PME box the soonest. I rebutted that the system gamers know this and play that to their advantage. Just because someone signed up for PME and got it done ASAP doesn't make them a better leader. He didn't agree. Amazing leadership.

Out

[Liquid]

At the Corona last fall, the MAJCOM CCs and CSAF talked about what we value as an AF and what we should value at promotion boards. I helped chop on the input below that was sent to CSAF and HAF A1 from our MAJCOM CC. He sent this in Oct:

"What we value in every officer for promotion (in priority order)

Capt to Major

1. Job performance (AC, IP, EP, WIC, AMU OIC, FLT CC, etc)

2. Leading Airmen both in garrison and deployed

3. Combat deployments, deployed mission commander

4. SOS

5. Additional duties: exec, safety, training, current ops & scheduling, plans, etc. This provides us insight into which officers can master their primary skill set and also handle increased responsibility.

6. Optional: Masters Degree

Major to Lt Col

1. Job performance

2. Leading Airmen both in garrison and deployed

3. Combat deployment mission commander

4. Joint job - GCC, OSD, JS, Inter-agency

5. HQs job- HAF, MAJCOM

6. IDE either in-residence or correspondence

7. Masters degree

Lt Col to Col

1. Job performance

2. Squadron commander

3. Leading Airmen both in-garrison and deployed mission commander

4. Joint job - GCC, OSD, JS, Inter-agency

5. HQs job- HAF, MAJCOM

6. SDE either in-residence or correspondence

7. Masters degree"

Not sure what the response was or if there was one. I've heard the CSAF and A1 are working on the vector and new promotion board guidance. Hopefully this guidance will include masking AAD at O-4 board, MLR and prohibit using it for DP consideration.

[Tally2]

Liquid—seems like you are listening-truly appreciated. Pressing the “I believe” button that you have a chance to influence the next generation from the perch, I will add my .02. The culture is sadly changing, but I am not sure that isn’t by design. Even worse, when the battle ragged guys need “leadership” when it appears our senior leaders are stuck in a world of management…not entirely their fault. Civilian furloughs and budget choices that I wouldn’t envy seems to have us low on airspeed and altitude. That being said, rising to the top of an organization with talent like the AF is impressive and implies you guys will handle it . There are of ton of lurkers reading this I am sure. Thanks for not blowing it off because only a select few are posting.

My first FLUG ride as a shiny new patch…as the story goes….Pumped for the opportunity mold a steely eyed killer from a bulldog on a leash to a young flight lead. I was already doing an upgrade the day before, but it was a retread. Fun flying, but not like the young guy entering a FLUG sortie. There are few sorties better than this. I walk out of the retread debrief looking to pass some early encouragement and answer what I assumed would be the same hundred questions I had the day before FLUG. In the back…nowhere to be found. I assumed the squadron bar, smiled, and thought….this is the world of fast jets. Old timers in the bar discussing BFM with the young ones while telling “Old Bull / Young Bull” for the 69^th time. (yes I said 69). Nope not there. I actually found him in a common room with books open and papers about. Walked in, and as you have probably guessed…it wasn’t 3-1, 3-3, or the Wing Standards. Hell it wasn’t even one of someone else’s briefs…. The kid had a final that evening. He didn’t want to say anything and miss the opportunity for the FLUG ride and inevitably catch shit from the line IPs. PISSED is an understatement. I couldn’t believe it and walked out without a word. Then it hit me…things changed in a matter of a few years. I didn’t see it because I was head down in my own world. Kid was a hell of a stick and “apparently” working to be a helluva an officer. I realized then this is what the institution wanted. This is the guy that is bitching about having to do AADs over family time and tactical stuff. Then he hears it from his squadron patch/line IPs about “the important sh%t” while a well-meaning commander says—“do it so you can change it when you get there”. He is pissed, his tactical leaders are pissed, his commander’s can’t change it and he’s about to tell mama he got shacked for a 179 and told “suck it up, this ain’t IBM”.

Yes, things are changing. RPA guys were TAMI’d and doing the J.O.B. They are dropping on bad guys, supporting the troops on the ground, going down town in the 21^st Century, but they get shit on for it. The establishment passes blame for creating a culture where they are not valued. WTFO! A new capability requiring talent but a challenge for senior leadership to both manage and inspire and “THEY” blame the younger guys for a less than ideal culture? As Iaccoca said “Where have the leaders gone”? (I will save the story of a sim only 4-FLUG—this post is already not faster or funnier)

The stories are large in number, but after all of these posts, WHAT is changing. If it’s not going to change…SAY IT. Those that embrace the new way…best of luck, kill bad guys, and lead those that follow. Those that don’t..thanks for your service. I am not disgruntled, I am truly just sad. I only speak for myself but I still believe....

I know … FNG post—let the spears fly

edited: because obviously my AAD wasn't English Grammer

Edited July 10, 2013 by Tally2

[pcola]

At the Corona last fall, the MAJCOM CCs and CSAF talked about what we value as an AF and what we should value at promotion boards. I helped chop on the input below that was sent to CSAF and HAF A1 from our MAJCOM CC. He sent this in Oct:

"What we value in every officer for promotion (in priority order)

Capt to Major

1. Job performance (AC, IP, EP, WIC, AMU OIC, FLT CC, etc)

2. Leading Airmen both in garrison and deployed

3. Combat deployments, deployed mission commander

4. SOS

5. Additional duties: exec, safety, training, current ops & scheduling, plans, etc. This provides us insight into which officers can master their primary skill set and also handle increased responsibility.

6. Optional: Masters Degree

Hopefully this guidance will include masking AAD at O-4 board, MLR and prohibit using it for DP consideration.

This is of very little consolation when the Sr Rater puts the most emphasis on #6 when filling out the bottom line of your PRF.

Its too late for me, but I hope they are successful at blocking the AAD all the way down to the Sq/CC rack and stack level, because that is where it currently does the bulk of the damage. I'm at a very competitive West-Coast AMC base and I know from experience that if you don't have your Masters, there is a good chance you'll be overlooked for those top-tier OG and Wg jobs. I've even seen them consider PME and AAD completion when selecting POCs for high-vis events/visits! This shit is out of control.

And I second all the comments about the challenges the young guys are facing (shit, I am barely beyond the "young guy" group, and I'm sure that I'm a relative babe compared to some of you old fucks.) But when I got my wings in early '06, nobody was lecturing me about getting a Masters. In my first assignment from 06-09, very few of us LTs were working on AADs (I wasn't.) But now, it's all the young guys talk about around the Sq. I'm getting sick and tired of having co-pilots stumble over very basic ops limits types of questions, only to hear them at the scheduling desk talking about their TUI or AMU or UMT. I was a Sq exec when the first round of Lt-to-Capt PRFs hit, and an OG exec when we were doing RRF forms for new guys facing the RIF. I have zero doubt that this shit played a huge role in sparking the intense interest amongst the brand new guys in this careerist attitude that used to be reserved for the FGOs.

I am currently working at the Wing level, and I have a pretty good rapport with individuals from the 3 different heavy MWSs at my base, and I know for a fact that a mass exodus of new-FGO 11M experience is looming. Between the -10, -17, and -5 communities, I can't even count the number of guys that I know or have heard of that have interviewed and are awaiting their chance to pull chocks, but I can think of very few guys that are verbally committed to the bro network to staying. This, combined with what I said in the preceding paragraph, is disturbing. We (the AF) have the "experience" switch preselected to "jettison," while the up and comers are too busy working on useless AADs to bother with learning the jet/mission.

Edited July 10, 2013 by pcola

[pcola]

I agree, requiring AAD at Maj board is bad policy and a misprioritization of time... The reality now is, the board uses it to discriminate in the grey zone, so commanders want good dudes to get it done and get promoted. Most Capts that didn't have it done got promoted.

Not sure how a wing commander or GO does a better job acknowledging how ragged our force is. We know it, but don't say it enough I guess. We just finished a four day weekend (for most, but not all). We (I) try to give a much down time as possible, since time is very valuable these days. I haven't done a single wing run or mandatory PT, ever. A waste of time. I cancelled all meetings on my first day of three commands. I hold people accountable for missed suspenses, but don't dwell on metrics.

Three of your four observations about how senior leaders don't get it is that we don't acknowledge things. Acknowledged. You can do better than that, but it was a good start.

You're a smart guy... Surely you know that words are shit - even on a forum of nothing but words. Acknowledge, Acknowledge, Acknowledge... Words - they may get you promoted, but they won't get you respect, nor will they fix any issues. You say that you can't fathom how to better acknowledge how ragged our force is...right after you acknowledge that our BS AAD requirement is bad policy and a waste of time. How about we acknowledge a tired and overworked force with a reprieve from the BS, and not another wordy acknowledgement? Novel idea, right?

The solution isn't that cosmic, but it somehow seems overly difficult for senior leadership to either grasp or embrace, not sure which. Stop wasting our time with extraneous nonsense when what we really want is to be dedicated to the mission. Actively de-emphasize the AAD at the CGO level. Tear up the SOS correspondence program (we're all supposed to go in res anyway, right?) And stop telling us we're over-manned when 80% of the Sq still has use/lose leave in August.

[Rusty Pipes]

Maybe Liquid can answer this question for me or maybe Herk...

Why is it that with our promotion system we have essentially limited ourselves to giving our officers only one shot at getting promoted? Yes, for O-5 and O-6 there is the possibility of getting promoted below the zone, but that is an approximate 1% chance. For everyone else you essentially have your IPZ look and that's it. The reason I ask this is because I had two good friends who were part of the 157 that were shown the door at 15 years when they were non-continued after being passed over for O-5. The reason they were both given for being passed over IPZ was because they had not had a Staff job... of course they were both told this when the results came out 6 months after PCSing to Staff. Both were late rated pilots (prior Nav/WSO) who were told by AFPC that they needed two Ops tours as pilots before they could go to Staff, so them even going to Staff before they did was not even an option.

I have heard the anecdotal story of someone getting promoted APZ, but those are almost too rare to even consider mentioning. Every O-6 and above that I have asked about this topic have said that essentially when they have the Boards there are 4 piles of PRFs... DPs BPZ, DPs, Ps IPZ, and then the Above PRFs that essentially are there to rest coffee on. If the AF is going to give every Wing CC or equivalent on Staff 1 BPZ DP that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs then why would they also not give them a DP APZ that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs that is their option whether they want to use it or not? Every time Board results come out you see the names of those who didn't make it and most of those names won't surprise anyone, but there is always that one or maybe even two folks that even the Wing CC is scratching their head surprised that Maj Snuffy didn't make the cut. I get that "timing is everything", but giving Wing CC's or those at Staff this option may be a way to keep some good leaders that if they PCS'd or got commissioned 3 months earlier or later would have made the cut.

BTW... both my buds mentioned above who were part of that 157 are working full time Res and Guard and are now O-5s. All boxes checked for their IPZ look on their PRFs (except Staff, although when the actual board met they were both at Staff), IP/EP types with competitive strats and both had the "Super P... If I had one more DP to give"... just to give some background.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[Liquid]

You're a smart guy... Surely you know that words are shit - even on a forum of nothing but words. Acknowledge, Acknowledge, Acknowledge... Words - they may get you promoted, but they won't get you respect, nor will they fix any issues. You say that you can't fathom how to better acknowledge how ragged our force is...right after you acknowledge that our BS AAD requirement is bad policy and a waste of time. How about we acknowledge a tired and overworked force with a reprieve from the BS, and not another wordy acknowledgement? Novel idea, right?

The solution isn't that cosmic, but it somehow seems overly difficult for senior leadership to either grasp or embrace, not sure which. Stop wasting our time with extraneous nonsense when what we really want is to be dedicated to the mission. Actively de-emphasize the AAD at the CGO level. Tear up the SOS correspondence program (we're all supposed to go in res anyway, right?) And stop telling us we're over-manned when 80% of the Sq still has use/lose leave in August.

Easy dude. My point is that it is easy to acknowledge something so why are you asking for that? You think we don't know how busy and tired everyone is? If only we knew and acknowledged it everything would be ok? My point is that it takes more than ack to change. We need policy changes to drive priority changes to drive CGO behavior changes. There are some good policy change recommendations on this thread. You mentioned a few. Reprieve from bs is good. AAD and double tapping SOS are good things to hit. I already talked about eliminating mandatory PT, too many meetings, practice bleeding. The manning piece is tough. We have combat requirements, limited money and new manpower positions are almost impossible to come by.

Btw, if you take leave during CTO, you won't have use or lose. Guys like you on 1 to 1 dwell, 60-90 day rotations, get up to six weeks of CTO a year. A generous program for those who deploy a lot. No leave charged if you stay in the local area. Most have the opportunity to take leave during cto but don't, so the use or lose whining in August doesn't fly with me.

[Liquid]

Maybe Liquid can answer this question for me or maybe Herk...

Why is it that with our promotion system we have essentially limited ourselves to giving our officers only one shot at getting promoted? Yes, for O-5 and O-6 there is the possibility of getting promoted below the zone, but that is an approximate 1% chance. For everyone else you essentially have your IPZ look and that's it.

I have heard the anecdotal story of someone getting promoted APZ, but those are almost too rare to even consider mentioning. Every O-6 and above that I have asked about this topic have said that essentially when they have the Boards there are 4 piles of PRFs... DPs BPZ, DPs, Ps IPZ, and then the Above PRFs that essentially are there to rest coffee on. If the AF is going to give every Wing CC or equivalent on Staff 1 BPZ DP that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs then why would they also not give them a DP APZ that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs that is their option whether they want to use it or not? Every time Board results come out you see the names of those who didn't make it and most of those names won't surprise anyone, but there is always that one or maybe even two folks that even the Wing CC is scratching their head surprised that Maj Snuffy didn't make the cut. I get that "timing is everything", but giving Wing CC's or those at Staff this option may be a way to keep some good leaders that if they PCS'd or got commissioned 3 months earlier or later would have made the cut..

I guess you get one primary shot at promotion to manage the force levels. We are limited by law how many officers in different grades we have, so not everyone can move up. The board gives senior raters the opportunity to fix a past board mistake when the wrong person is passed over. They can give all of the their DPs to APZ eligibles if they want, their choice. I've given 4 DPs to APZ over the past few years and the board honored those recommendations by promoting them all APZ. Got one on this Lt Col board too. Had an APZ to major get sq cc and make O-6, so the option is there. The tough choice is that the DPs for APZ come out of IPZ eligibles, so you effectively give a P to an IPZ to give a DP to APZ. That is why some senior raters don't do it much, they rationalize that the APZ already had a shot and they want to maximize IPZ promotees, even if they are less qualified and deserving than the APZ. The good news is boards usually have a 100% promote rate for APZ with a DP, so senior raters know it is a good investment.

[NotADude]

Liquid,

Let me guess-you take leave on Saturdays and Sundays so you don't ever have use or lose...

smh

[Rusty Pipes]

That is why some senior raters don't do it much, they rationalize that the APZ already had a shot and they want to maximize IPZ promotees, even if they are less qualified and deserving than the APZ. The good news is boards usually have a 100% promote rate for APZ with a DP, so senior raters know it is a good investment.

So then why practice bleeding on APZ PRFs? If an APZ PRF with a P has a 0% promotion rate then why bother going through the motions and wasting everyone's time and money for zero results? Does this mean officers are only qualified as promotable leaders based on the instructions given to the particular board they meet?

I guess when the CSAF says he is looking for XYZ criteria for promotion he means he is only looking for those qualities in that particular year group... and even if that criteria changes 6 months later now making them more qualified than a good percentage of the next group they are basically told "sorry, thanks for playing... you had your chance!" Good luck keeping those guys motivated. Even worse... you give them a kick square in the junk by showing them the door after 15 yrs of service! And we wonder why there is a morale problem in the AF? You get three looks to compete for school, but just one for promotion... do we want to promote our best officers or not?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Rusty Pipes