Promotion and PRF Information

[17D_guy]

You can't possibly believe that?! You're just trying to stir the pot right?

If this guy runs anything we're all hosed.

If GC's posts don't have numbers you can just skip them.

[TheInner]

You can't possibly believe that?!

I think GC has a valid point when looking at the individual, if their records have DGs and #1 strats and annual awards then there is no reason I shouldn't think that individual is a strong performer. However, to be able to rack and stack throughout that person's year group I would certainly have to dig a little deeper. Even when comparing apples to apples there will be some variability. As a former UPT IP I can tell you that not all DGs are created equal, so the argument that a UPT DG is an auto-winner over some other tech school DG can only hold so much weight. In the grand scheme of things there probably are some people on an O-4 board who lose a school slot or even a promotion because someone applies the logic implied in GC's post but ultimately the playing field starts to level out (to some extent) as people get wing, staff, etc level positions where you get racked and stacked across AFSCs more so than when a young pup.

[Muscle2002]

MX officers can promote based on number of denied 2407s, etc.

Classic

[backseatdriver]

...the CAF can promote WIC grads...

I hope it would be more than just the CAF promoting WIC grads

[Dupe]

I hope it would be more than just the CAF promoting WIC grads

Of course. I couldn't fit all the examples in one sentance. The best IP and leader I know in my community isn't a patch. At the same time, I've seen some pretty dumb assignments for WIC grads to get O-4s the tickets they need to compete for further promotions because the system-at-large requires it. Examples are sending fighter WIC grads to USAFA to be an AOC and knock out an AAD. Another is sending a patch to teach at SOS and then go to ACSC in-res as a follow-on. Both were wastes of our Air Force's investment in these individuals. Had we had a community or AFSC-specific promotion system in place, these assignments wouldn't have happened.

[Rusty Pipes]

Umm, earth to Rusty...by definition, they are all the same. Stop whining.

This is the exact reason we don't have Leaders in the AF anymore... and the only way guys like GC can get promoted. Everyone gets a trophy... we're all "Warriors", right Chang?!? My current O-6 Boss (non-rated) has logged more hours in Polifka being told he is a Leader and a Warrior than he has in the AOR... and that is not a joke. He also spent 20 minutes yesterday defending Finance E-3's getting Bronze Stars for their 179 to Al Udeid, soooooo...

Edited August 15, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[BitteEinBit]

Unfortunately, the reality is that promotion boards can't see 'leadership' on paper the way we see it in action. They can only determine 'leadership potential' based on what types of awards they see in OPRs...and we all know that even the worst douches can get those awards. The DG from my PME class wasn't the best 'leader,' but had the best test scores,. Coincidence?? Not at all. We don't select 'leaders' for promotion, but rather potential leaders. Somehow if someone is book smart, they have leadership potential. The current commander of my organization can't speak well in public to save his life. CC calls are painful. He definitely doesn't come across with any type of respectable authority...but behind the scenes he is an outstanding planner, and can ace the hell out of some written tests. He is a smart dude with no personality. It appears to be what the Air Force is looking for right now.

Let me tell you about this new generation of Airman coming up through the ranks...they don't respect rank anymore, so you actually need charismatic leadership to shape this young bunch. It means using actual leadership (i know we've moved away from the traditional definition in recent years) and I mean it across the full spectrum from the Jr NCO all the way to the GO. Connect with your people, find out their strengths and weaknesses and exploit them to benefit the organization. Flashing your rank and demanding compliance isn't going to cut it anymore. Just think about who YOU consider your best commanders...did you follow them because of their rank or the way they connected with you?? Just a rhetorical question there.

I've stopped compliaining about it, I have too few years left and not enough pull to make any significant changes. I will still try to influence young airmen my way while I'm still in. If GC is anything higher than an O-4 (possibly O-5 select) staffer at "the pentagon," I would be surprised. Not a personal attack on the man, but I've never heard senior leaders 'talk' like that until recently. Leaders motivate and offer solutions and rational explanations to issues...they don't just say 'suck it up.' If he is higher than an O-4, then I think I may be correct in my assumptions about the type of people the Air Force is promoting these days. They arent necessarily bad for the organization, just sometimes these types are better left behind the scenes making things happen.

Personality is everything to a charismatic leader....just reference the Yeager and the 'he who shall not be named' threads.

[slackline]

I think GC has a valid point when looking at the individual, if their records have DGs and #1 strats and annual awards then there is no reason I shouldn't think that individual is a strong performer. However, to be able to rack and stack throughout that person's year group I would certainly have to dig a little deeper. Even when comparing apples to apples there will be some variability. As a former UPT IP I can tell you that not all DGs are created equal, so the argument that a UPT DG is an auto-winner over some other tech school DG can only hold so much weight. In the grand scheme of things there probably are some people on an O-4 board who lose a school slot or even a promotion because someone applies the logic implied in GC's post but ultimately the playing field starts to level out (to some extent) as people get wing, staff, etc level positions where you get racked and stacked across AFSCs more so than when a young pup.

Agreed, but here's the rub, the leaders going to these boards need to know what that crap means. I mean, is it possible to have a generic rundown of all the career fields before stepping in to a board to determine someone's future? Is that overly ambitious? I'm not saying the #1 dude at finance school, or space and missile school, or MX officer, etc aren't fast burners, but there's no way around the fact that the level of work required at UPT is less than any school out there with the exception of SOF maybe. None (I'll admit, only to my knowledge) of the other schools have as high a bar for min-running as UPT. Basically, you can't min-run it, unless things have changed in the last ten years. Tolerances for mistakes are not possible after your first mulligan, and rightly so.

I'm not saying pilots are better than everyone else, but with the occasional exception (heck, look at me) poor performers don't get through UPT. They may ease off afterwards and become total wastes of space, but it's safe to say a DG out of UPT is unlikely to fall into that category. Same arguments can be made for WIC, although in Rescue they seem to either be D-bags, or turn into D-bags upon graduation. Maybe that's changed as some recent names going through give me hope. Used to be you had to force a guy to WIC, but that's a sidebar.

It's staring us in the face, and it's been said again and again. AFSC specific boards, at least through O-4 are a pretty easy solution. Anyway, my $.02. I've been wrong before. Once.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jughead]

I've been wrong before. Once.

1:21

[Ram]

It's easy math for me. The Air Force has never sent a finance school / personnel school washout to UPT.

[RASH]

It's easy math for me. The Air Force has never sent a finance school / personnel school washout to UPT.

Has anyone even washed out of these schools? Serious question...

[F16Deuce]

Had we had a community or AFSC-specific promotion system in place....

Nope, need to have the appearance of being totally "fair and equitable." Mission be damned.....

[17D_guy]

Has anyone even washed out of these schools? Serious question...

Oh yes, got to spend time with them at Keesler.

[Toro]

Unfortunately, the reality is that promotion boards can't see 'leadership' on paper the way we see it in action. <<snip>> Personality is everything to a charismatic leader....just reference the Yeager and the 'he who shall not be named' threads.

[busdriver]

chop chop chop....Same arguments can be made for WIC, although in Rescue they seem to either be D-bags, or turn into D-bags upon graduation. Maybe that's changed

We've worked hard to change that, but some of the weapons officers are assholes thing has come about because guys don't like hearing they're fucked up. I definitely remember the WO=Asshole years, but I know for a fact that the everyone gets a ribbon mentality is still alive and well in our community. Until I hooked my first check ride then got my dick kicked in doing AC upgrade at Nellis, I was a shining example of that attitude.

Sorry a bit off topic, I think splitting out the career fields as far as promotion numbers would probably be a good thing. How many XXXX Majors/LtCol does the AF need in the next cycle? Well, let those dudes compete amongst themselves and promote accordingly.

[theat6bisasham]

Any more news on the rumor of next years LTC board being pushed?

[guineapigfury]

Has anyone even washed out of these schools? Serious question...

I saw people wash out of ASBC, stupidity has no floor other than rock bottom.

[Snooter]

Finance E-3's getting Bronze Stars for their 179 to Al Udeid, soooooo...

Sweet I'm on a 6-month tour to the Undisclosed location doing paperwork crap, where do I pick mine up?

It's easy math for me. The Air Force has never sent a finance school / personnel school washout to UPT.

You sir, win the internet today...

[Champ Kind]

Finance E-3's getting Bronze Stars for their 179 to Al Udeid, soooooo...

This must be hyperbole...

[FUSEPLUG]

Got word from the boss that this year's O-4 board was not so much delayed as it was all-together canceled.

It seems the next O-4 board will meet during the first week in December of 2014. The O-5 board looks like it will meet in early March of 2014.

The tone of the e-mail was that this is still tentative, but based on good info. The final message should come down in a few weeks.

[RASH]

Oh yes, got to spend time with them at Keesler.

YGBSM...where do they go?

I saw people wash out of ASBC, stupidity has no floor other than rock bottom.

Unbelievable. In the big picture, maybe this is good news. We (you, as I have retired) have nowhere to go but up...

[theat6bisasham]

Got word from the boss that this year's O-4 board was not so much delayed as it was all-together canceled.

It seems the next O-4 board will meet during the first week in December of 2014. The O-5 board looks like it will meet in early March of 2014.

The tone of the e-mail was that this is still tentative, but based on good info. The final message should come down in a few weeks.

So O-5 board in march 2014? or did you actually mean 2015? ....because March of 14 would be exactly the same as this year.

[FUSEPLUG]

So O-5 board in march 2014? or did you actually mean 2015? ....because March of 14 would be exactly the same as this year.

March 2014 is what the e-mail said. I haven't been following the O-5 board at all, so I'm not sure if that is on frag or not.

[17D_guy]

YGBSM...where do they go?

Home. You can't hack a 5 week tech school.. see ya.

[deskjockey]

March 2014 is what the e-mail said. I haven't been following the O-5 board at all, so I'm not sure if that is on frag or not.

If you look at the increments the previous (2012 board) will run out of O-5 Selects in December and the 2013 board's Majors will start being promoted... I don't think there is a reason for the AF to delay the 2014 O-5 board, but stranger things have happened. (BTW the 2011 Major's board still has about 10-11 months until they run out of line numbers)