Promotion and PRF Information

[Learjetter]

I know that isn't what you said, but I laughed anyway. :)

Lol...you're not far off!!! Lots of opinions. Lots of discussion for each and every split and unusual situation (DPs undergoing discipline, DNPs 5APZ with fantastic records and awards/decs and real leadership in the record, solid records with great combat experiences but mediocre SR strats, etc) .

So, yeah, kinda like that.

[Jaded]

What is "I quit" whining?

[Learjetter]

What is "I quit" whining?

Any "don't promote me" letter that didn't cite humanitarian reasons.

[Karl Hungus]

Any "don't promote me" letter that didn't cite humanitarian reasons.

 

 

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

[Homestar]

I guess i don't understand the logic behind a do-not-promote letter. there is no ADSC with the promotion, so take it and go to the Guard, or get out when you want anyway.

[Karl Hungus]

I guess i don't understand the logic behind a do-not-promote letter. there is no ADSC with the promotion, so take it and go to the Guard, or get out when you want anyway.

the idea is that getting passed over for promotion will allow one to separate from AD earlier than their current ADSC, and that getting hired by ARC units is easier as an O-3 than an O-4, O-4 than O-5, etc... where you'll just get promoted anyway without as much of the silly AD games.  

That, and getting a seniority number sooner rather than later can be huge for those so inclined.

Either way, it's indicative of how toxic AD AF is that pilots would consider writing a do-not-promote letter.  I wonder how much that happens at healthy organizations.

[Learjetter]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

True. But at the time, my opinion was the one that mattered...

Does the board look at fitness test records independently from the OPR? Could a person schedule a fitness test and fail it prior to meeting the board?

Being a Capt/Major would make it easier to get hired by the Guard. You'd just meet the next ROPMA and make O-4/O-5.

The board didn't see any fit test scores themselves...but we saw OPRs. But the ramifications of a failure after OPR closeout (lor, etc) could probably be referenced on the PRF if the SR wanted to.

Look, if folks are trying to get out prior to their ADSC by "failing to get promoted x2" there are many ways...but none of them reflect well on you to any audience.

[Jaded]

I always found that argument insulting and condescending. I've heard it enough that it's clear that it's taught at some version of O-5 charm school.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Jaded

[Herk Driver]

I always found that argument insulting and condescending. I've heard it enough that it's clear that it's taught at some version of O-5 charm school.

Which argument is that? Are you referring to the none of them reflect well on you argument?

[Karl Hungus]

Look, if folks are trying to get out prior to their ADSC by "failing to get promoted x2" there are many ways...but none of them reflect well on you to any audience.

 

I know several folks with families, jobs (ARC, airlines, and/or non-flying civilian organizations), and/or real graduate schools who would laugh at you for making that statement.  I guess that's not the audience you were thinking of. 

Not surprised that someone on a promotion board would think like you, though.  Speaks volumes. 

[Chida]

This line of thinking is one the effects of being in the regular AF too long. There is life after and apart from BIG BLUE!

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[SnapLock]

And finally, to the poster who asked about writing a do not promote me letter in some thread: my panel had several, some we honored, some we ignored...the ones with true humanitarian reasons were honored. The others were seen as "I quit!" whining, and if the record otherwise merited it, those folks got put on the promotion list. In this way, as we were instructed by Secaf, the Best Qualified got promoted...not just the best qualified of those that wanted it. Finally, senior raters were sometimes ignored: DPs didn't make the cut, etc

Please state reason?  I find this potentially concerning. 

 

[Learjetter]

I know several folks with families, jobs (ARC, airlines, and/or non-flying civilian organizations), and/or real graduate schools who would laugh at you for making that statement.  I guess that's not the audience you were thinking of. 

Not surprised that someone on a promotion board would think like you, though.  Speaks volumes. 

I'll try to explain: I'm not talking about Palace chase type programs. Look, you volunteered to serve for your ADSC, if you don't have a humanitarian/medical reason for getting out early, you're trying to renege on your end of the deal, and that's not cool. It's also not cool for the AF to renege on their end of the deal (rotc recat, tami21, stoploss etc). Is it widely viewed as acceptable behavior in ARC/airlines/non-flying civilian orgs/real graduate schools to not keep your word?

Ways to get out early: fail PT tests, commit a crime, refuse a deployment, malinger, violate a sufficient number of standards over time, choose not to upgrade from wingman or copilot, bust lots of check rides or cheat on tests, take leave in Colorado and smoke dope, say something lewd and degrading to fellow airmen in every staff meeting, etc. All of those ways will result in discipline first, then a less-than-glowing OPR on your way out the door. Now, to what audience will such an OPR be appealing and amusing?

This line of thinking is one the effects of being in the regular AF too long. There is life after and apart from BIG BLUE!

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This line of thinking is one of the effects of being a dumbass.

You're right, there is life after the AF, and it comes quickly...so serve ably and professionally as you agreed to, take advanatge of the opportunities presented to you, always take care of your airmen, then press on to ARC or NASA or corporate or blogger land or wherever with the admiration and gratitude of your fellow airmen. If you're so unsatisfied as to need to change careers right now, go read up on how to separate, then resign your commission in writing to your commander, take whatever lumps come your way and move on.

Please state reason?  I find this potentially concerning. 

 

Look at any board's stats: DPs are never 100% promoted...its always 98-99%. Usually, that's due to stuff in the record that occurs late in the cycle like new article 15 or criminal indictment, or don't promote me letters, or occasionally, a record that doesn't justify a the DP but the SR gave it to him anyway. These situations are NOT common and you'd know it if you were in one of them.

Similarly, once in a while there is a DNP that gets promoted. They will value things the board doesnt, or vice versa.

Hypothetical Example: a rescue officer was APZ with no strats on a weak DNP PRF. But, on his poorly written OPRs, he had 14 saves, 9 in combat, a BSM with valor, and two purple hearts, and fairly normal line career progression (but no schoolhouse, or exec or aide or staff tours), and was in a stressed career field. His 2nd to most recent OPR was a referral for off base DUI (and the reason for the DNP), but the LOR & rebuttal in the record confirmed he only got a reckless driving citation, not a DUI. The board valued his experiences, recognized the rehabilitative nature of the discipline he received (good OPR after the bad one) and scored him much higher than the SR obviously did, and he made the list. The board thought his experiences would lead to him being a very effective future combat and peacetime leader of airmen. This kind of situation is also not common.

There's a lot more to the board process than just a quick look at the PRF, which is merely a recommendation by the SR. Every OPR, every medal citation, every document in the record is read and assessed. Variances in scores between panel members are verbally discussed...sometimes for a very long time...I remember one that we tabled twice during the day and probably spent close to an hour discussing late into the evening. We spend two weeks doing this process, and get pretty good at assessing future potential from the records.

Finally, I'd prefer if you asked questions, but keep throwing spears and making snide comments if you want--it's a flyers God-given right after all. My skin is thick. I'm happy with my performance and career path and results, and I thought some of you might find these perspectives useful.

LJ

[Lord Ratner]

words

I disagree on one point. Not getting promoted does not mean the same thing and reneging on the contract (even if that is the end goal). You don't need to get promoted for the AF to keep you in, they can continue you should they choose. Forcing promotion on someone who doesn't want it is silly, and only an organization that habitually mismanages personnel through stubbornness and inexperience could fail to recognize that.

If you don't want people with bright futures sabotaging their careers, ask yourself why the system is making them that way, and fix it. Or don't. The nice thing about the military is that very, very few leaders are ever truly accountable for their organizational management decisions.

[guineapigfury]

The rules don't prohibit you from writing a Don't Promote Me Letter or a crappy PRF rough draft to hand into your supervisor.  The rules just specify the consequences.  Make your decision and live with it.  This is not reneging on your contract.  Big Blue will always use the AFIs to its advantage, turnabout is fair play.

[pawnman]

Touche.  Wg/CC stratted me top 5 percent.  MLR deemed me bottom 40 percent.  Makes sense.  Good system. 

I feel you.  I went to the promotion board with multiple #1/xx strats and a FLT/CC of the year award at the OG level.  I also got a P.

[bennynova]

Thanks, LJ

 

. Glad to hear the recent boards are adhering to the new secaf memorandum to promote the best, and ignore promotion zone

Edited December 10, 2015 by bennynova

[zach braff]

Got a homie who met O-5 board APZ with a P and made it.  I somehow got the IDE designator on my O-4 board while another dude who my SR stratted higher than me did not.  Evidence would appear the boards really are looking at records and not only the SR bottom line.  I hope it continues...

zb

[Muscle2002]

10 hours ago, bennynova said:

Thanks, LJ

 

. Glad to hear the recent boards are adhering to the new secaf memorandum to promote the best, and ignore promotion zone

 

7 hours ago, zach braff said:

Got a homie who met O-5 board APZ with a P and made it.  I somehow got the IDE designator on my O-4 board while another dude who my SR stratted higher than me did not.  Evidence would appear the boards really are looking at records and not only the SR bottom line.  I hope it continues...

zb

On the BPZ side, I know a handful who were picked up early with just a P, which again supports the idea that the board looks at the whole record.

[Duck]

Is it a requirement to put your strats on your PRF? Do boards actually look through your OPRs or mainly focus on the surf and PRF?

[guineapigfury]

I put mine together earlier this year.  There were rules on how many could go on which lines.  To the best of my knowledge this was purely local guidance.  If you're a dude like me with 1 amazing OPR with multiple strats, and several pedestrian OPRs this made things difficult.

[Learjetter]

Is it a requirement to put your strats on your PRF? Do boards actually look through your OPRs or mainly focus on the surf and PRF?

Your SR should do your PRF IAW MAJCOM guidance. The SR normally delegates the initial draft to Sq/cc. You may be asked for inputs by your flt/cc.

In creating the PRFs, I saw it done/ did it the pretty much the same way from 2000-2015: IAW an AFPC / MAJCOM message, about 60 days prior to the board, the drafts were due for the groups to the wing (or their equiv positions on staff). They were tweaked or re-written and run thru admin review, then presented to the SR, along with each officers entire record. The SR would dedicate hours to read each record, any accompanying push notes, and make any changes to each and every PRF. Then they went off to MLR and DPS were awarded, the forms signed by the SR, then they went to AFPC for the board and you got your copy 30 days prior to the board.

(Ps: never get the rep as a good OPR or PRF writer...that stink never rubs off and as a result I probably redid a thousand decorations, OPRs and PRFs that werent on my folks outside the ones I did during my two wing exec tours).

I can only speak for myself, but yes, I read every word of every record. My technique:

The big screen monitor holds three "electronic" stacks of paper on the screen for each record, appopriately magnified for our geriatric eyes.. On the right, the PRF and all OPRs. In the center, decorations and "other stuff" like a-15 or lors. On the left, the DQHB and letters to the board.

I'd open a record and start with the surf/dqhb. Then move to the middle and read the decorations. Finally, flip to the back of the stack and read OPRs earliest to latest. Only then world I read the PRF and score the record.

Bottom line: it's all important, not just the surf or the PRF.

[Duck]

Thanks LJ!

[bennynova]

Is all of this a new board policy?

 

were the best records all promoted 3 years ago?  Or were passed over packages downgraded and given little to no consideration?

[Learjetter]

I dunno. BPZ / IPZ / APZ has never meant much to me. I got promoted on time, every time. Championed and got DPs for some of my guys on every recent board...in every zone.

Stellar is stellar

Strong is strong

OK is OK

What's "zone" got to do with documented duty performance? In my book, nothing.

Others think differently, so YMMV.