guineapigfury Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 8 hours ago, xaarman said: Asking for a friend of mine... If you get DNP'd, do you still get IVSP? The DNP affects promotion, not retention. On your friend's second look, the Wing CC will indicate to the board whether or not he should be considered for retention. I believe the magic words are "fully qualified" and "not fully qualified".
Duck Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 Declining a promotion is considered to be failed of selection, same effect as not making the promotion list. There is no continuation after the fact. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Chida or Jaded... Which one is correct or both? Do you live out the rest of your ADSC or separated immediately after second board as if you were passed over twice?
Jaded Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 My understanding is that twice passed over is not an automatic expulsion - I know of a twice passed over captain flying f-16s right now. I believe that the USAF had the option to offer you continuation or not. I am not smart enough on those pubs to provide a reference however.
Duck Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 We just had a guy twice passes over 11F who was offered continuation. He denied it and is separating almost a year earlier than his UPT ADSC. I am wondering if denying a promotion is treated the same or if they make you stay till the bitter end of your UPT ADSC. Not that it matters, but for me I was happily serving until I was called in and told by my Commander that my career field and year group was overmanned back in 2014 and I should be prepared for the possibility of not having a job in the Air Force from the RIF. I took a long shot and applied for a job making around $200k a year and after almost a year and a half of interviews, was offered the gig. By this time the Air Force has decided that I am vital to the organization, finishes the VSP/RIF option in 1 year versus the 5 authorized by congress and subsequently denies my Palace Chase and Hardship Applications. Just a little background for those wondering why I have so much hatred for Big Blue. Anyone know of any other options I have to free myself ? 1
bennynova Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Fail every PT test and you should get released (with some sort of separation pay) 1
guineapigfury Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Multiple PT test failures. Consider gaining weight to keep things plausible. 4 Fails could be accomplished in 9 months if you take the full 90 days between retakes. There's no separation pay if you go that route. 1
Prosuper Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 Just to put a bad OPR in perspective , it could be worse, came across this about North Korean officers. https://video.foxnews.com/v/4752874407001/expert-kim-jong-un-may-have-gone-too-far/?playlist_id=trending#sp=show-clips Seems many top officers have met their demise of pissing off the top guy, one even executed by an anti-aircraft gun. Not much to look forward over there out of uniform.
Waingro Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 I'm 1APZ and about to get passed over for O5 the second time. I'm expecting to be offered continuation. I'm considering declining it, understanding that I will not get involuntary sep pay. My question is with regards to the GI Bill transfer ADSC and the bonus. I'll have about a year left on the GI bill ADSC and two years left on the bonus. Do I keep the GI bill benefits if I decline continuation before the ADSC is up? Will they recoup any of the bonus outside of prorated unearned portions? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
bennynova Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 Waing you will most likely be continued til 24 years if you like. There is no way to decline it (if you have a adsc left and bonus signing of 2 years left) I'd guess you have to serve those sentences out.... Then you can cut chalk when you want (with no benefits) one ne you get out under your own accord, your GI schooling should still be usable
scoobs Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 On February 12, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Duck said: We just had a guy twice passes over 11F who was offered continuation. He denied it and is separating almost a year earlier than his UPT ADSC. I am wondering if denying a promotion is treated the same or if they make you stay till the bitter end of your UPT ADSC. Not that it matters, but for me I was happily serving until I was called in and told by my Commander that my career field and year group was overmanned back in 2014 and I should be prepared for the possibility of not having a job in the Air Force from the RIF. I took a long shot and applied for a job making around $200k a year and after almost a year and a half of interviews, was offered the gig. By this time the Air Force has decided that I am vital to the organization, finishes the VSP/RIF option in 1 year versus the 5 authorized by congress and subsequently denies my Palace Chase and Hardship Applications. Just a little background for those wondering why I have so much hatred for Big Blue. Anyone know of any other options I have to free myself ? I'm confused, you liked your job but now your mad because you get to stay? 1
Duck Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 "Get to stay" makes it seem like I have a choice. Not surprised you're confused though. What was your background again? 2
Homestar Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 Guess you shouldn't have gotten into a business that required you to sign a 10 year labor contract. 1
Duck Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 Holy shit you two. Seriously. I am not complaining about the contract or the length of time. What pisses me off however is that some of us were told "plan to not have a job" and when things started working out for us in the civilian world the Air Force said "Kidding!" What I don't want is to burn this bridge for what would ultimately be a much better life for my family. If you don't get that then maybe you and the Air Force deserve each other. Bottom line, the way this whole VSP/RIF debacle was what I was complaining about. And btw I am not going to start failing PT tests to get out. I still desire to serve in the Guard after I am out. Looking forward to your guys next worthless replies 2
Chida Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Here is what you can do to get out of the regular AF absent Palace Chase. Twice Failed of Selection (2x FOS) to the next higher rank requires, by law, that the officer be separated (unless continuation is offered and accepted). ADSC is a service-level regulation and the law trumps ADSC. 1. Write a Do Not Promote me letter to the promotion board. If you do this for your APZ board, this will get your separation pay revoked, but since it's an advance on retirement pay and you intend to get a Reserve Retirement, it doesn't much matter. The law also stipulates no separation pay for an eventual separation for writing a do not promote me letter to your IPZ board, but I don't know if the AF tracks this. 2. If you make the promotion list anyway, decline the promotion. 3. If you are offered continuation upon your 2nd FOS, decline it. You won't get separation pay in this event. Doing the above will get you once failed of selection, so you'll need to fail selection a second time to get your date of separation which is normally 6 months after the public release of the selection list. You can move this to sooner, but due to bureaucratic processes any sooner than 2 months after the public release is probably too soon. You'll need to get on the scroll to get a reserve commission and that won't happen until you get a waiver. Even after you get a waiver, the scroll process can take two months. Getting on the scroll before separation will enable you to Palace Front. Since 2x FOS disqualifies you for a reserve commission, you'll need a request for waiver signed by your losing wing commander and gaining wing commander to go to the ARC, so hopefully you can do the above without burning any bridges. Since the ARC needs people these days, it shouldn't be much of a problem as long as you have a good relationship with your command. As long as you don't have a break in service between the regular AF and the ARC (i.e. you Palace Fronted), you'll meet a promotion board in the CY after your separation and probably be promoted provided you have your PME done and don't have any adverse indicators. You can also avoid having a break in service by being placed in the IRR, but this rarely happens. Many involuntarily separated officers are not placed in the IRR due to bureaucratic ineptitude. Regardless, the scroll process is required to get your reserve commission and without doing that, AFPC *will* give you a break in service and then *may* place you in the IRR. The end result is that you will meet a promotion board in the 2nd CY after your separation instead of the 1st. It's much better to go to the SELRES or ANG via Palace Front than to try to get a scroll done for the IRR. I don't know if it can be done because the gaining wing commander equivalent in the IRR may not cooperate to sign the request for waiver. From everything I've seen, the Air Force has very little interest in properly managing IRR officers. I say all this because by virtue of receiving separation pay, the law requires an officer to serve in the IRR for 3 years, but many are not placed in the IRR or are not scrolled and therefore have a break in service. Any unearned portion of a bonus already paid will be recouped. It is within their right to recoup a portion of any tuition assistance paid, but not "earned" because you didn't fulfill the ADSC, but I haven't seen this happen except for voluntary separation programs. As far as transfer of education benefits with the GI Bill, it is within their rights to revoke the benefit, but if this happens you can reinstate it in the ARC. Contrary to popular belief, there is no continuation that is forced on an officer--it is offered and then the officer either accepts or declines regardless of ADSC. sources: AFI 36-2501, AFI 36-3207, 10 U.S. Code § 1174 Edited February 14, 2016 by Chida 4
Jaded Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 Great post. Could you decline promotion to Capt, decline continuation, and get out at 5ish years?
otsap Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 An addendum to Chida's great and thorough post... 2. If you get promoted, you may decline promotion. However, per AFI, you remain on the promotion list. The only way off the list is by submitting (some AF Form that's listed in AFI 36-3207 I think, under the "Declining Promotion" section), which must be signed by your Sq and Wg commanders. This is the gray area, because I have no idea the (dis)incentives for your chain of command to sign or not sign. My understanding from the AFI is that this process is meant to stop the promotion of someone who beat their spouse (for example) subsequent to being notified of promotion but before pin-on, or maybe if that happened during the time between selection and notification. If the form is signed by all parties, then you are removed from the promotion list and it is the same as being a non-select. The only resistance I can think of off the top of my head would be your Sq and Wg commanders not wanting to take you off a promotion list that five O-6s put you on; but who knows. BL: Declining promotion is not the equivalent of being a non-select. You are still on the promotion list, you just won't get promoted. And yes, that's dumb. 1
LJ Driver Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 On 2/11/2016 at 0:53 PM, danvgalhb said: LJ, ask the SR what...if I am right not to get excited about the PRF bottom line? I'm not going to waste time doing that. However, if I'm going to get on the SR's schedule to chat about my PRF, it's because I want to know what the weaknesses and strengths in my records were that led to my strat, not ask whether or not I think my PRF is something to get excited about. Well, your SR is required to give you feedback on your PRF if you want it, so I would start there... During that discussion, I would not use the words "should I be excited about my PRF bottom line", but there is no reason you shouldn't ask him directly how he arrived at that BL and how he feels your PRF will compete-- that's called mentorship. You're asking a bunch of internet advice experts who probably don't know you, and are also not actually experts. Ask the man that actually made the assessment. 2
Homestar Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 14 hours ago, Duck said: Holy shit you two. Seriously. I am not complaining about the contract or the length of time. What pisses me off however is that some of us were told "plan to not have a job" and when things started working out for us in the civilian world the Air Force said "Kidding!" What I don't want is to burn this bridge for what would ultimately be a much better life for my family. If you don't get that then maybe you and the Air Force deserve each other. Bottom line, the way this whole VSP/RIF debacle was what I was complaining about. And btw I am not going to start failing PT tests to get out. I still desire to serve in the Guard after I am out. Looking forward to your guys next worthless replies What about AFPC led you to believe that this time they would manage a VSP program in a predictable way? I'm sorry that your exit strategy is delayed for 24 months or whatever it happens to be, and good luck to you in your efforts to get out early.
Duck Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 Here is what you can do... Wow. This is the reason I come here. Thanks Chida!
Chida Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) On 2/14/2016 at 1:02 AM, otsap said: An addendum to Chida's great and thorough post... 2. If you get promoted, you may decline promotion. However, per AFI, you remain on the promotion list. The only way off the list is by submitting (some AF Form that's listed in AFI 36-3207 I think, under the "Declining Promotion" section), which must be signed by your Sq and Wg commanders. This is the gray area, because I have no idea the (dis)incentives for your chain of command to sign or not sign. My understanding from the AFI is that this process is meant to stop the promotion of someone who beat their spouse (for example) subsequent to being notified of promotion but before pin-on, or maybe if that happened during the time between selection and notification. If the form is signed by all parties, then you are removed from the promotion list and it is the same as being a non-select. The only resistance I can think of off the top of my head would be your Sq and Wg commanders not wanting to take you off a promotion list that five O-6s put you on; but who knows. BL: Declining promotion is not the equivalent of being a non-select. You are still on the promotion list, you just won't get promoted. And yes, that's dumb. I'll have to disagree with you, otsap. Look at Title 10 §14312. It says that declining a promotion is the same as failed of selection. It makes no reference to the process for having your name removed from a promotion list ex post facto, but that it will be removed. To the poster who asked about promotion to O-3 Capt, then, yes, this would work for that too, however, the MSO of 8 years might present an issue. I don't know because I haven't researched the ins/outs of 2 FOS to O-3. The exact text of the statute: (c) Effect of Declining a Promotion.— An officers name shall be removed from the promotion list and, if the officer is serving in a grade below colonel or, in the case of the Navy, captain, the officer shall be considered to have failed of selection for promotion if any of the following applies: (1) The Secretary concerned has not authorized voluntary delays of promotion under subsection (a) to the grade concerned and the officer declines to accept an appointment to a higher grade. (2) The Secretary concerned has authorized voluntary delays of promotion under subsection (a), but has denied the request of the officer for a delay of promotion and the officer then declines to accept an appointment to a higher grade. (3) The Secretary concerned has approved the request of an officer for a delay of promotion and, upon the end of the period of delay authorized in accordance with regulations prescribed under subsection (a), the officer then declines to accept an appointment to a higher grade. I realize this is written for reserve officers, and I can't find an equivalent statute in the regular officer section, so you may be right. On the other hand, if an officer declines a promotion, he will meet the next board and his status will be APZ, so what other status would that imply other than he once FOS? Edited February 15, 2016 by Chida more info 1
Chida Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 otsap: I don't know which of us is right. I doubt the bureaucrats would know what to do either, because of the rarity of this. I personally wouldn't recommend pressing to test on this, unless you're sure that you're OK with whichever result shakes out. One thing is for sure though: whether a subsequent board has him down as IPZ or APZ, his PRF will not be good (presumably) and the end result of that board will either be a once FOS or twice FOS. 1
Duck Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 I will be pressing to test next year if my subsequent Palace Chase apps get turned down. The failing pt tests, although expedient, wouldn't sit right on my conscience.
otsap Posted February 16, 2016 Posted February 16, 2016 Chida, You may be right, especially since your source is Title 10, which should trump the AFI. What I'm looking at is AFI 36-2501. Specifically paragraph 4.1.3 that says "Officers who decline a promotion remain on the promotion list for which they were selected." Then, under Chapter 5 "Promotion Proprietary Actions", paragraph 5.5 talks about how to remove an officer from the promotion list, and to do so even if the officer declines promotion "since his or her name remains on the list." Hell, I may be in the wrong AFI, and my SA isn't big enough to search U.S. Code, so good on ya. If your info is correct, and I assume it is, it's odd that the AF would write a pub contradicting a higher authority and I'd be curious to hear from anyone who can rectify the discrepancy. Duck, Best of luck. The conscience is a great thing. It not only keeps you out of trouble, but allows you to use the AFI's to your advantage, if able, without guilt. 1
ArcticGator Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Does anyone (execs) know what the DP allocation for LAF Lt Col P0516B was this year?
10percenttruth Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 Does anyone (execs) know what the DP allocation for LAF Lt Col P0516B was this year? We were told 50% IPZ & 1-in-10 BPZ
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