Promotion and PRF Information

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, hatedont said:

Nail on the head. You get the bigger issue that I'm seeing. I totally agree with you.

There is a dude I know who is a shiny penny. I watched as he put himself up for countless awards. I know that's how you highlight yourself as an officer if you want to be a GO someday. Anyway, he created a position for Lts to sit next to the Ops Sup and answer phones. I don't know how the hell that got approved! Ultimately, the position was killed off. I was at SOS when his idea came to fruition. Otherwise, I would have said hell no.

Based on that scenario, you wonder how some leaders become so out of touch with the rest of us. They were always out of touch, its just nobody ever tells another officer thats a dumb idea and you're doing it all wrong.

The officer in question probably still thinks his idea was great! It was just another bullet on his many award packages. How do you win Flt/CC of the year when your OPRs are late and your airmen fail their PT tests? Document that on a 1206....

We still have that in an ops squadron.  Turns out it's useful to have someone who can bring things to/from the aircraft, or take a phone call, or schedule some airspace.  I did that job as a Lt...it was a rotating duty, like Ops Sup.  And it did more to build my knowledge and experience regarding ETICs, turn times, priority, jet availability, and the like than flying for a year ever did.

[Fuzz]

3 minutes ago, hatedont said:

The disconnect is real on your part. Airmen who live on base have to eat in the chow hall.

Working lunch? You can have a working lunch if you are going to pay for everyone's food to work through lunch. The shirt is going to say something to you if you think you can make airmen stay for a working lunch. Even if you buy food, they could say they don't want your food. Everyone knows this already. You are asking to be chiefed Viperstud.

Not trying to be a dick. Have you gone to SOS? 

I don't know where you are getting this stuff about lunch and the 1st Sgt becuase in the Ops and MXG world working lunches are common. For those airman on meal plans at the chow hall, its called getting your food to-go and coming back to your desk to continue work. I'm lucky to get a break for lunch most days of the week and as for PT/gym, yeah not a chance. I could maybe do one or the other some days but if I want to leave work before the sun goes down I can very rarely if ever do both.

Night classes might be good for promotion but the mission comes first. If both can't be accomplished then you have ammo to get rid of the non-mission related stuff or work towards other solutions. The mission of the AF is to "fly, fight and win" not "take night classes, do bake sales and go to lunch". If you behind and there are deadlines to meet (i.e. jets launching or people PCSing) then people stay till the work is done.

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, hatedont said:

This is the equivalency of you living in a great middle class neighborhood. However, I live in a drug infested trailer park. Then you trying to tell me you totally understand what I go through. No you don't understand. You cannot relate to me at all. You will be a more effective leader with the enlisted if you can actually relate to them in general. Leading isn't about barking orders. You need compassion and have to be able to understand the enlisted you are trying to lead.

Comm doesn't need to come over to ops. Why don't you go over to the comm building and establish a relationship with their airmen, NCOs, or SNCOs. Try talking to them like human beings and it might get you somewhere. The ops vs support mentality is growing tired and old. Are CCs actually talking to each other to resolve these issues? It starts at the top and some issues might get fixed if people tried it.

When my Lt was trying to get CFPS and other software installed, it sounded like he was being a dick to comm. I should have asked him did he try hooking comm up by using backdoor AF policy of handing out booze. 

Because when I go to the comm building, there's a giant sign that says "closed for squadron function".

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, hatedont said:

Nobody has died from not receiving a set of TMO orders on time. You might want to read that post again. When you can tie a Lts death into TMO orders you are looking at the AF through a soda straw. 

There is a huge shortage of personnel in maintenance. Guess what? They would rather get out to go to school full time instead of staying in the AF. Not having the right amount of people to fix jets is far more dangerous than anything. You can't have an enlisted force and not educate them. The more enlisted we have in maintenance permits more of them to go to school and become better maintainers. Taking college classes is a part of being promoted outside of WAPs and CDC testing. You think maintainers are going to stay in knowing they can't even get their CCAF? I guess you don't care about them taking care of themselves or your jet with your mindset. Its far more dangerous to  that Lt to have a shortage of maintainers who have a piss poor attitude and low morale because they can't go to school at ALL and are being over worked.

Maintainers and pilots are leaving because QOL is so great (sarcasm). Last time I checked, we have a shortage of pilots and maintainers due to QOL. That impacts combat capability, not sending someone to college classes after work.

How could you ever say allowing people to go to school impacts the mission in a negative way?

Financial issues are a huge driver of suicides.  So, when your guys knock off early on Friday for PT instead of unfucking A1C Snuffy's pay, and he can't make the rent, and he kills himself over the weekend...then yes, people do lose their lives.  All so "your troops" didn't have to be exposed to one minute of overwork "because it's too stressful".

[pawnman]

12 minutes ago, hatedont said:

I'm not hung up on education. But a lot of people enlist for the education benefits.

I'm asking you gentlemen to take into account their manning. When an airmen apologizes for not having something done due to their manning, what can I say? You're a douchebag of an airman? It's called having compassion. Lots of people are short. 

Not every leader in the AF thinks like a Type A pilot. Lord knows civilian thinking drives me nuts. 

If you don't let any E's go to school. Watch retention plummet across every AFSC.

You are comparing officers to enlisted. Kids fresh out of high school compared to someone who has already completed a 4 year degree. They have different mindsets, especially those who are pilots.

So you're willing to let the mission fail to "protect your people"?

This is why non-flyers almost never get command of a wing.  Because the flyers know it isn't acceptable to tell POTUS "Sorry sir, we won't be launching those strikes today...Capt Snuffy has a class after work, and Maj Donut has to pick up his kid from the CDC by 5pm".

[hatedont]

6 minutes ago, pawnman said:

We still have that in an ops squadron.  Turns out it's useful to have someone who can bring things to/from the aircraft, or take a phone call, or schedule some airspace.  I did that job as a Lt...it was a rotating duty, like Ops Sup.  And it did more to build my knowledge and experience regarding ETICs, turn times, priority, jet availability, and the like than flying for a year ever did.

I did it too, which really prepared me to be a SOF in my opinion. But it wasn't a two person job. The Ops Sups are pretty old school like you shouldn't be here sitting next to me. The Lts were just answering phones, not filing flight plans or printing NOTAMs for a formation..etc.

[Fuzz]

18 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Having watched passed over majors get RIF'd just a few years ago, I would certainly prefer to have a defined path to retirement instead of "well, we're short on people for now, so you can continue...oh, looks like we're over manned, get out.  Too bad you served 17 years, but no retirement for you".

^This.

It needs to be a identified track, not just any random pilot passed over for promotion because we know there are people passed over because they spent too much time flying the line and those that are passed over for other reasons. It needs to come with protections and benefits for starters, not being the guy to eat whatever 365 comes down to the base repeatedly, not eligible for staff, not required to do PME by correspondence etc.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Fuzz

[Bozo]

Hate to interrupt the hatedont beat down but I have a quick question regarding selective continuation.  Is continuation normally offered one year at a time which means that you will meet a continuation board every year?    If I remember the AFI wording correctly it doesn't give a default continuation term but reading through the forums here seems to suggest everyone gets a year.

[tac airlifter]

5 minutes ago, brabus said:

Since you seem fairly hung up on education, let me educate you....

See the difference? 

He is not going to listen or be educated, and he doesn't see the difference.  You're wasting your time bro.  He is one of those people convinced he understands a perspective you don't, and can't comprehend a world outside his assumptions.  

[hatedont]

4 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So you're willing to let the mission fail to "protect your people"?

This is why non-flyers almost never get command of a wing.  Because the flyers know it isn't acceptable to tell POTUS "Sorry sir, we won't be launching those strikes today...Capt Snuffy has a class after work, and Maj Donut has to pick up his kid from the CDC by 5pm".

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.

We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

[hatedont]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Because when I go to the comm building, there's a giant sign that says "closed for squadron function".

I call first.

[pawnman]

Just now, hatedont said:

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.

We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

Working people an extra hour isn't "running them into the ground".  

You should spend some time on the flight line.  The MX folks have some choice words for your office-dwelling 9-to-5ers.

[pawnman]

Just now, hatedont said:

I call first.

They never answer.

[Duck]

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.
We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

I don't know what they've told you, but they don't work that hard on the other side of the base.

I've been waiting at the MPFs door waiting for them to unlock it while watching all 5 of them surf Facebook, meanwhile I need my CAC to work so I can actually do my job. Once the door was opened only 2 of the 5 started helping people.

Support has completely forgotten that they aren't the mission. I don't need them to be the tip of the spear, but I need them to do their jobs.

Holy thread derail.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[hatedont]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Working people an extra hour isn't "running them into the ground".  

You should spend some time on the flight line.  The MX folks have some choice words for your office-dwelling 9-to-5ers.

Choice words...don't you mean they are using their feet to leave in order to get caught up with the 9 to 5ers education wise? If maintenance was so great and treated their people well everyone would be staying in. My pops warned me before I enlisted that maintenance is a job you don't want. 

In Korea, I worked a 6 on, 3 off schedule and my supervisors allowed us to still go to school. You just had to ask and she would let you leave work for school if the mission allowed. We always had enough people so it was never an issue.

I totally understand your perspective regarding maintenance. I had to sit in on a court martial for a maintainer. That kid was not being taken care of in my opinion. I told the other officers he shouldn't be court martialed and gave my reasoning why. Well, I was a man alone. After they sentenced the maintainer, he addressed us with a letter. Everyone from the court martial told me I was right about the kid after the fact. Its too late now because you can't unscrew his life now. Officers are far more lenient on court martials than enlisted. My peers could not relate to the kid which led to their decision.

When your AF defense team pulls out power point slides, just plead guilty. If that maintainer had a civilian lawyer, he would have walked free. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[hatedont]

13 minutes ago, Duck said:

I don't know what they've told you, but they don't work that hard on the other side of the base.

I've been waiting at the MPFs door waiting for them to unlock it while watching all 5 of them surf Facebook, meanwhile I need my CAC to work so I can actually do my job. Once the door was opened only 2 of the 5 started helping people.

Support has completely forgotten that they aren't the mission. I don't need them to be the tip of the spear, but I need them to do their jobs.

Holy thread derail.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

We were talking about the mx troops Duck.

[Duck]

We were talking about the mx troops Duck.

Underpaid and overworked.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, hatedont said:

We were talking about the mx troops Duck.

No, we're talking about how you refuse to make your guys work 1 minute past 1630, but how it's acceptable for the entire OG, MXG, SFS, and Fire Department to work 24/7.

[HU&W]

I was worried when Chang slipped up and was outed.  This place never gets boring though.

[nunya]

Chang just created a new persona.

 

[Guest]

words

Hatedont/no2bonus/cantfly,
While being twice banned seems to have convinced you to try and play nice with others, your posts are still entirely nonsensical. Maybe have someone review what you write before you hit reply.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brickhistory]

3 minutes ago, nunya said:

Chang just created a new persona.

 

My theory is that chang, being an A1 "in the know" kinda guy, saw the most recent promotion board results and he didn't get something he thought he would.

The timing of his "I now hate the Air Force" works out in that the list would have floated around the appropriate A1 shops prior to release so that some ducks could be arranged regarding HPO schools/assignments, etc.

While I have no doubt his pain is/was real to him, Big Blue don't care.  Took that kick in the junk for him to realize that.

[one1]

3 hours ago, gearpig said:

 

hatedont,

Having been on this forum for many, many years, here's how this usually goes: People sign up usually because they have something to contribute. First posts are typically very agreeable, well thought out, and well liked. Then, some people fall in love with the illusion that their opinion matters and the posts get longer. Then those posts get critiqued. They then feel they must defend every word with even more walls of text. The cycle continues leaving blood in the water. The sharks arrive and the people who think they're going to teach the forum a thing or two get decimated.

Four consecutive long posts responding to critiques in a single topic... you're on track to be just another in a long line of people who have made the same mistakes.

This is great advice. The only thing I would add is that after certain admins start not agreeing with you, you will get your account "accidentally" deleted or they will "accidentally" lock you out of your account. 

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, hatedont said:

in Korea, I worked a 6 on, 3 off schedule and my supervisors allowed us to still go to school. You just had to ask and she would let you leave work

Sooooo coddled. Well, here it is folks - the reason we can't get shit done with some people. 

[dream big]

Absolutely: Technical v. Leadership track. The schism won't happen till your major's board much like one is selected for school.  Up until then, primary duty as a rated officer is progression in the jet.  Those selected for the leadership track can be "groomed" as necessary.  Technical track doesn't need to just fly, they can be the ADOs, DOs, WICans, the crusty experienced instructors.  They'll perhaps top out at Lt Col.  

There will inevitably be some issues with this..for instance I can say with certainty much less than 15-20% of us probable "selects" would even want to be on a leadership track.  But is it much different than how we do things now in terms of "leadership"?  Formalizing a technical track would mitigate some of the retention issues and keep the experience in the squadrons so we aren't sending young and inexperienced guys out on night one...IMHO