Promotion and PRF Information

[Guest]

Just got a call. "Man, can you help with with my PRF/ROP. It's late to the group and the Gp/CC wants my PRF now." I told the fellow DO the group exec doesn't know what he is doing. The eligibles don't do their own ROPs. I helped him out of course. I told the DO if the group exec needs any help just to ask. It's obvious the exec is just forwarding emails from the wing exec.
Nothing like a bud having to hammer out a 2 BPZ PRF/ROP on a Sunday during football with the Gp/CC on his ass. 

How dumb are you?


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[brabus]

52 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

Your lack of ACSC in correspondence however, will 100% guarantee your non-promotion

To be clear, the guard does allow promotion without PME through ROPMA.  Not a guarantee, but seems like a high Pk promotion for pilots at least.  Downside is you lose a few years of O-5 pay, so even for money alone it's probably worth doing ACSC if you're a full time guy and not living off an airline paycheck.  Sucks that ROPMA isn't an option in the Reserves.

[Champ Kind]

Just got a call. "Man, can you help with with my PRF/ROP. It's late to the group and the Gp/CC wants my PRF now." I told the fellow DO the group exec doesn't know what he is doing. The eligibles don't do their own ROPs. I helped him out of course. I told the DO if the group exec needs any help just to ask. It's obvious the exec is just forwarding emails from the wing exec.
Nothing like a bud having to hammer out a 2 BPZ PRF/ROP on a Sunday during football with the Gp/CC on his ass. 

Did you slide down the pole to the bat cave when you got the call?

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

From what I see (and it was this way in ACC as well), you have to work at an attached or on loan job to be considered worth anything. Squadron superstars are always pushed out to jobs above the squadron level (and in RPAs they are reserved for guys who re-catted). I’m fine with that, but I’m not going to waste what time I have left with that noise, as Viper said. I’m trying to rack up as much time as possible before punching, and a ridiculous desk job doesn’t facilitate that. Because of that, you can bet my last few OPRs on active duty won’t have any sort of DO or CC push. I’ll take my chances getting promoted in the guard/reserve, and hopefully without ACSC by correspondence.


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Jobs outside the squadron prepare you for squadron command. I learned more about how a wing functions in 18 months on a wing staff than I ever knew in years at the squadron. I’m not saying that they prepare you to be a *good Sq/CC but you learn how all the pieces fit together. I understand that in your case you want to do your time, maximize your flying, and move on to better things, and I can respect that. I just get tired of the same old story that everyone in group, wing, or other staff jobs are only trying to climb the ladder at the expense of someone else. Maybe that has been your experience but it hasn’t been mine at all. I’ve had good commanders that did their best for their best people and worked to get them jobs that would broaden their experience and maybe prepare them to work outside the squadron sometime in the future. 

 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Homestar said:

Jobs outside the squadron prepare you for squadron command. I learned more about how a wing functions in 18 months on a wing staff than I ever knew in years at the squadron. I’m not saying that they prepare you to be a *good Sq/CC but you learn how all the pieces fit together. I understand that in your case you want to do your time, maximize your flying, and move on to better things, and I can respect that. I just get tired of the same old story that everyone in group, wing, or other staff jobs are only trying to climb the ladder at the expense of someone else. Maybe that has been your experience but it hasn’t been mine at all. I’ve had good commanders that did their best for their best people and worked to get them jobs that would broaden their experience and maybe prepare them to work outside the squadron sometime in the future. 

 

Same.  I've learned a ton about the wing in my OGV and IG jobs that I was never exposed to staying solely within the flying squadron.

[MooseAg03]

Agree, but do all O-5s need to be SQ/CCs? We’re saying you need the pushes to get promoted, and you need to work a desk job outside of the squadron to get the pushes. What about those that want to focus on flying? My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but it seems like the options for those that don’t desire squadron command are to either sign a ridiculous ADSC for the joke of a fly-only track, or get passed over twice and then accept continuation.


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[matmacwc]

10 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?
 

They're called patches, and usually make O-5 (though not always).

[pawnman]

29 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

Agree, but do all O-5s need to be SQ/CCs? We’re saying you need the pushes to get promoted, and you need to work a desk job outside of the squadron to get the pushes. What about those that want to focus on flying? My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but it seems like the options for those that don’t desire squadron command are to either sign a ridiculous ADSC for the joke of a fly-only track, or get passed over twice and then accept continuation.


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I think the process is absurd.  If you weren't picked up in residence for school, you are already out of the running for SQ/CC... Yet the board will penalize you if you don't have an SQ/CC push line, even though it's a long shot, at best, and in all likelihood a lost cause.

But the Air Force answer is that they are promoting leaders.  You can easily fly the line to 20 years as a major.  If you are making it clear to have no desire to take on additional leadership duties, why would the Air Force give you a higher leadership position?

[MooseAg03]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I think the process is absurd.  If you weren't picked up in residence for school, you are already out of the running for SQ/CC... Yet the board will penalize you if you don't have an SQ/CC push line, even though it's a long shot, at best, and in all likelihood a lost cause.

But the Air Force answer is that they are promoting leaders.  You can easily fly the line to 20 years as a major.  If you are making it clear to have no desire to take on additional leadership duties, why would the Air Force give you a higher leadership position?

There are over 8,000 Lt Cols in the active duty, they aren't all DOs and CCs.  I'm just trying to illustrate the ridiculous position that guys in my demographic are in, and why we will all be gone within the next year.  We get non-vol'd away from our MWS, do well in RPAs, but fight to get back to our airframe.  Then we either have to choose to chase a promotion or regain proficiency that we lost being gone for 5 years.  I thought the Air Force was in need of pilots, but I know if I stay active duty and choose to not fly a desk then I will not get promoted.  

[Danger41]

21 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

There are over 8,000 Lt Cols in the active duty, they aren't all DOs and CCs.  I'm just trying to illustrate the ridiculous position that guys in my demographic are in, and why we will all be gone within the next year.  We get non-vol'd away from our MWS, do well in RPAs, but fight to get back to our airframe.  Then we either have to choose to chase a promotion or regain proficiency that we lost being gone for 5 years.  I thought the Air Force was in need of pilots, but I know if I stay active duty and choose to not fly a desk then I will not get promoted.  

In theory, shouldn’t old guys like you be able to regain proficiency quicker than a new guy? Not hating, genuinely asking.

[HarleyQuinn]

5 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

How dumb are you?

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Who made you BODN/CC today?

I guess you should let a fellow FGO fail when a group exec doesn't know what the hell they doing at all. Nobody should be putting together their ROP. Most people don't have a clue how to put one together. That's the job of an exec or director of staff. Not the job of an eligible. An eligible should be focused on their PRF.

4 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

Did you slide down the pole to the bat cave when you got the call?

He started running into Abobe errors. That can happen when creating a ROP if you don't know what you are doing. My CSS was having the same issue. I told them both to save the file as a different name after you extract the files from PRDA, then "Print to PDF."

Edited December 3, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[HossHarris]

25 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Who made you BODN/CC today?

I guess you should let a fellow FGO fail when a group exec doesn't know what the hell they doing at all. Nobody should be putting together their ROP. Most people don't have a clue how to put one together. That's the job of an exec or director of staff. Not the job of an eligible. You should be focused on your PRF.

He started running into Abobe errors. That can happen when creating a ROP if you don't know what you are doing. My CSS was having the same issue. I told them both to save the file as a different name after you extract the files from PRDA, then "Print to PDF."

 

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

I'd argue that no, it does not.  A chief pilot can be an O-4 just as well as an O-5.  I'd love to be an O-5 chief pilot and do nothing but fly every day, but there just aren't that many O-5 billets at the squadron level.  No, not every O-5 needs to be a Sq/CC or DO, but I don't think it's unreasonable that every O-5 be expected to be ready/able to command if called upon.

I fall into the category of "didn't-go-to-school, won't-be-a-commander", but I wanted O-5 pay and an O-5 retirement, so I took jobs at the Group and Wing level so that I could be valuable to a commander.  I didn't get a DP, was promoted anyway somehow, so I'll basically finish my career doing....whatever the Wg/CC needs this non-CC to do.  That's my lot in life.  But I've been an active flyer in every assignment, which is better than a lot of people get, so I realize that I've been very fortunate.

I agree that the OPR/PRF process is a pretty poor way to find and promote talent.  The up-or-out system is antiquated and needs to be updated.  But it just simply isn't in the interest of the government to promote a guy to O-5 to do an O-4's job.

[Homestar]

33 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Who made you BODN/CC today?

I'm just glad you're not drunk-posting like a giant doosh today. 🥃

[HarleyQuinn]

So for every 3 majors going up for promotion equates to one DP per wing correct? Let's say you have an IPZ,  2 BPZ, and 1 BPZ going up in the wing for promotion. Does all three individuals have to be IPZ for the wing to receive one DP or does it not matter?

[ThreeHoler]

So for every 3 majors going up for promotion equates to one DP per wing correct? Let's say you have an IPZ,  2 BPZ, and 1 BPZ going up in the wing for promotion. Does all three individuals have to be IPZ for the wing to receive one DP or does it not matter?

That wing would get 0 outright DPs.

[MooseAg03]

In theory, shouldn’t old guys like you be able to regain proficiency quicker than a new guy? Not hating, genuinely asking.

I only had about 1,000 hours before I was yanked to fly droids. The flying came back pretty quick, but it’s the running the mission and dealing with TACC that takes exposure. I’ve been pretty damn busy this past year and I’ve only flown 350 hours. I’d hate to see how little that would be with a queep job that keeps me from flying.


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[pawnman]

8 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

So for every 3 majors going up for promotion equates to one DP per wing correct? Let's say you have an IPZ,  2 BPZ, and 1 BPZ going up in the wing for promotion. Does all three individuals have to be IPZ for the wing to receive one DP or does it not matter?

Your WG/CC needs 3 IPZ officers to get 1 DP.  the rate is actually 55%, but the AFI specifies a cutoff to get the first one.

BPZ officers don't count towards the number of DPs the commander has.  He has to take them from the IPZ pool to give to a BPZ officer.

[Krypto]

15 hours ago, pawnman said:

If you weren't picked up in residence for school, you are already out of the running for SQ/CC...

Food for thought:

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Krypto said:

Food for thought:

I'm seeing 89% with either WIC or IDE.  That's 10-15% (with overlap between those two groups) for everyone else.

[Guest]

I'm seeing 89% with either WIC or IDE.  That's 10-15% (with overlap between those two groups) for everyone else.

I would think the vast majority of WIC grads end up doing IDE in residence.


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[Tunes3]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

Your WG/CC needs 3 IPZ officers to get 1 DP.  the rate is actually 55%, but the AFI specifies a cutoff to get the first one.

BPZ officers don't count towards the number of DPs the commander has.  He has to take them from the IPZ pool to give to a BPZ officer.

Incorrect. DP for APZ officers takes away from IPZ.  DP for BPZs are totally separate. 

[Warrior]

I would think the vast majority of WIC grads end up doing IDE in residence.


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I personally know several WIC guys who didn’t get school. One data point: how many WIC grads are in the 57 WG all competing against each other for that push?

I freely admit that I don’t have the comprehensive data to say that 69% do or don’t go in res.

[osulax05]

1 hour ago, Warrior said:

. One data point: how many WIC grads are in the 57 WG all competing against each other for that push?

 

This. The 57 Wg/CC and the WS/CO do their best to push folks, but you can only do so much.

If the AF adopts a static close out for Officers as is rumored, that problem will only get worse. We’re going to have to recalibrate our eyes when looking at records and not expect everyone to be #1.

[war007afa]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

I'm seeing 89% with either WIC or IDE.  That's 10-15% (with overlap between those two groups) for everyone else.

I don’t think WIC and IDE in-res are mutually-exclusive, as that math implies. But you’re right in the general statement of difficulty you’re presenting.