Promotion and PRF Information

[soupafly06]

I would say if your goal is squadron combat of a combat flying squadron then being a Patch is almost a requirement.  From what I saw in the RPA community at least all combat squadron commanders were patch wearers while the non-patches commanded the FTU and OSS squadrons.  I’m not saying that’s the case 100% of the time but if one’s goal is command of a combat squadron then a being a patch wearer certainly doesn’t hurt.  Maybe it’s a fairly obvious observation (especially being in ACC) but it’s something I didn’t realize until far too late.   

[Skitzo]

I would think the vast majority of WIC grads end up doing IDE in residence.


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I thought it would be higher than 60%. Would like to see the results for AETC HAWK Sq/CC.


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[brabus]

1 hour ago, soupafly06 said:

I would say if your goal is squadron combat of a combat flying squadron then being a Patch is almost a requirement.  From what I saw in the RPA community at least all combat squadron commanders were patch wearers while the non-patches commanded the FTU and OSS squadrons.  I’m not saying that’s the case 100% of the time but if one’s goal is command of a combat squadron then a being a patch wearer certainly doesn’t hurt.  Maybe it’s a fairly obvious observation (especially being in ACC) but it’s something I didn’t realize until far too late.   

If someone goes to WIC to help their future SQ/CC chances, they are fucking it away wholesale.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, soupafly06 said:

I would say if your goal is squadron combat of a combat flying squadron then being a Patch is almost a requirement.  From what I saw in the RPA community at least all combat squadron commanders were patch wearers while the non-patches commanded the FTU and OSS squadrons.  I’m not saying that’s the case 100% of the time but if one’s goal is command of a combat squadron then a being a patch wearer certainly doesn’t hurt.  Maybe it’s a fairly obvious observation (especially being in ACC) but it’s something I didn’t realize until far too late.   

I've had patch and non-patch commanders in the B-1, but never someone who didn't do IDE and staff.

[slackline]

I've had patch and non-patch commanders in the B-1, but never someone who didn't do IDE and staff.

Nailed it.


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[HarleyQuinn]

Just talked to a buddy from the 06 year group. He said Lt Col wouldn't be enough to keep him in the AF. I feel the exact same way. I wonder how many people are going to walk because they don't have a chance of being promoted? Someone eluded to this before where if you know you aren't on the leadership track you simply walk away from the AF. 

Can the AF run with the support officers running the show? They look at things far differently than all of us from what I learned. Pilots know how to talk to people in order to get what we want, especially with civilians. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[raimius]

15 hours ago, Krypto said:

Food for thought:

CY17 Staff tour 

70+46+92 = 162?

 

Hard to trust the bean counters when they can't add on their own slide shows...

[Jetpilot]

13 hours ago, osulax05 said:

This. The 57 Wg/CC and the WS/CO do their best to push folks, but you can only do so much.

If the AF adopts a static close out for Officers as is rumored, that problem will only get worse. We’re going to have to recalibrate our eyes when looking at records and not expect everyone to be #1.

My general observations:  dudes assigned to the USAFWC absolutely love their jobs and are there for the right reasons (build, teach, lead).  Also, their sacrifice of time/family life etc. in order to train the next generation is beyond compare.  However, I have seen plenty of 57 WG folk, especially patches, get surpassed by folks at "normal wings".  I can't imagine how a static closeout would affect them even more.

[pawnman]

16 hours ago, brabus said:

If someone goes to WIC to help their future SQ/CC chances, they are fucking it away wholesale.

People shouldn't go to WIC because they want the chance to lead a squadron of professional, tactical aviators in combat?

[frog]

10 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Can the AF run with the support officers running the show? They look at things far differently than all of us from what I learned. Pilots know how to talk to people in order to get what we want, especially with civilians. 

CE guy here.

Support officers don’t want to run the show. We just want competent senior leadership. Much of the aircrew senior leadership that I have seen has been LESS mission focused than my CE leadership. I can’t count how many times I have pulled Airmen off of the airfield to make the base look better, trim the General’s hedges, etc.

Regarding pilots knowing how to talk to people in order to get what you want, “especially civilians”...you probably know the least about how the civilian system works or how to get long-term production from civilians. Check your ego at the door.

 

[Pitt4401]

10 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

 

Can the AF run with the support officers running the show? They look at things far differently than all of us from what I learned. Pilots know how to talk to people in order to get what we want, especially with civilians. 

 

ATC chatter doesn't count.

[BashiChuni]

42 minutes ago, frog said:

CE guy here.

Support officers don’t want to run the show. We just want competent senior leadership. Much of the aircrew senior leadership that I have seen has been LESS mission focused than my CE leadership. I can’t count how many times I have pulled Airmen off of the airfield to make the base look better, trim the General’s hedges, etc.

Regarding pilots knowing how to talk to people in order to get what you want, “especially civilians”...you probably know the least about how the civilian system works or how to get long-term production from civilians. Check your ego at the door.

 

I can’t disagree with this. I’ve had a pilot O-5 personally order us to pick up pine cones in the grass to make the sq look “better” for the wing king. 

Everyone just wants competent leadership. If it’s a CE guy I’d be all for it. 

Where I have beef is when finance or medical are always closed early and acting like the SUPPORTED asset and not the SUPPORTING asset

[osulax05]

7 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

My general observations:  dudes assigned to the USAFWC absolutely love their jobs and are there for the right reasons (build, teach, lead).  Also, their sacrifice of time/family life etc. in order to train the next generation is beyond compare.  However, I have seen plenty of 57 WG folk, especially patches, get surpassed by folks at "normal wings".  I can't imagine how a static closeout would affect them even more.

You’re preaching to the choir on the work the WS cadre put in. 

A static close out would take away a SR’s room to maneuver for strats and pushes which will make the tough situation you and I both described worse. 

[HarleyQuinn]

2 hours ago, frog said:

Regarding pilots knowing how to talk to people in order to get what you want, “especially civilians”...you probably know the least about how the civilian system works or how to get long-term production from civilians. Check your ego at the door.

I've never had a problem talking to or working with civilians. I can't speak for every rated officer, but I know a vast majority of the pilots would excel dealing with the oversight of civilians. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work with civilians.  Most of us switch jobs in a squadron every year so we are all fully capable. I've had contractors working directly for me. If I had it my way, more contractors would do the queep jobs in squadrons to free up flyers to you know, fly!

Edited December 4, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[Danger41]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

People shouldn't go to WIC because they want the chance to lead a squadron of professional, tactical aviators in combat?

Honestly, if you primarily want to be a squadron commander, don’t go to WIC. The other routes will set you up better with a more reliable outcome.

If you want to be a Patch and everything that comes along with that, including possible command opportunities but by no means guaranteed, try for WIC. 

I want people to pursue their ambitions and hopefully be successful. I don’t say this as a backhanded slight to guys that don’t go to WIC and go down the exec/ADC path to become a commander. There’s been great CC’s that aren’t Patches. There’s been shit CC’s that are Patches. BL: WIC won’t guarantee you are a good leader. It guarantees you’ll be exposed to integrating and being an expert in your MWS.

 

[17D_guy]

59 minutes ago, osulax05 said:

You’re preaching to the choir on the work the WS cadre put in. 

A static close out would take away a SR’s room to maneuver for strats and pushes which will make the tough situation you and I both described worse. 

Are we projecting an officer SCOD without a corresponding change in strats?  They can't do a SCOD with how we're doing strats now.  There's so much double dipping (1/69 O3's, 1/969 CGO's, 1/6969 Officers) it would impact our "almost HPO's."

Granted we're all worker bees, so I'm sure no one's telling the AFPC trolls (retired O5 & 6's) how that'll screw the field.

Could always just get to narrative PRF's and do away with strats all together.

[osulax05]

17D, I agree that if we end up with SCODs for officers we will have to change the strat system and recalibrate our eyes to not expect everybody to be #1 of something. 

[brabus]

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

People shouldn't go to WIC because they want the chance to lead a squadron of professional, tactical aviators in combat?

They will lead a squadron, wing, etc. tactically...as the expert in their community on tactics, at integrating with others, solving tactical problems many would say, "that's unsolvable" to, building up those around them to be the best ____ that person can be, etc.  WIC is very much a leadership school, and you will get a lot of leadership opportunity out of it, much of which occurs prior to being a SQ/CC.  People should do it because they want to do these things, not primarily as a container checked to help make SQ/CC down the road.

[MooseClub]

7 hours ago, frog said:

CE guy here.

Support officers don’t want to run the show. We just want competent senior leadership. Much of the aircrew senior leadership that I have seen has been LESS mission focused than my CE leadership. I can’t count how many times I have pulled Airmen off of the airfield to make the base look better, trim the General’s hedges, etc.

Regarding pilots knowing how to talk to people in order to get what you want, “especially civilians”...you probably know the least about how the civilian system works or how to get long-term production from civilians. Check your ego at the door.

 

^That checks. 

I’ve had some experience with GS & contractors and you’re right, for many of us typical pilot types it won’t compute. That’s a different world. Approach them the wrong way and they’ll just slow roll shit till you move on to another position. Easy enough for them to just wait you out. 

[soupafly06]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

People should do it because they want to do these things, not primarily as a container checked to help make SQ/CC down the road.

I wasn't trying to say that all who go to WIC are aiming to be Sq/CC's.  I'm sure every person there has their own unique reason for putting up with the challenges of the course.  However, all else being equal, when it comes time for a Wing to rack and stack or for the command board to pick names, being a WIC grad is a fairly big discriminator.  Haven't we all lamented at some point the waste of talent of sending a Patch to do a queepy Wing job that isn't related to Tactics or instruction?  Maybe those Patches were already sh!t hot to begin with and would have been selected regardless but maybe that Patch is just another easy way for leadership to pick "high potential" talent for grooming and it's value for that shouldn't be understated.

[Bender]

I've never had a problem talking to or working with civilians. I can't speak for every rated officer, but I know a vast majority of the pilots would excel dealing with the oversight of civilians. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work with civilians.  Most of us switch jobs in a squadron every year so we are all fully capable. I've had contractors working directly for me. If I had it my way, more contractors would do the queep jobs in squadrons to free up flyers to you know, fly!

The idea of contractors working directly for you is a bit problematic at best. They don't ever work for you; they work for the company that was awarded their contract. They work to meet the requirement set forth in the relevant contract, you know...or not, depending on the particulars. ...and when they don't, it's is a hella ass pain to do much of anything about it. That said, my experiences with contractors has been almost completely positive (I consider myself lucky).

Talking to/dealing with doesn't exactly correlate to "oversight". They have their own set of rules and the bad ones can be equally as frustrating as contractors (if not worse). It's good that you can talk to people and express yourself and stuff; it's definitely a good skill.

You idea of queep contractors is being executed in a lot of places. It won't be so enjoyable, as the man starts looking to micro-manage the extra sorties that should be generated by their presence. Solving the quality of life issues everyone bitches about is not easy, at least not from where we're at.

That said, people bitched about the same shit during the Cold War, and will still bitch about the same stuff 69 years from now when we finally let Kabul cave in.

~Bendy

[frog]

6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I've never had a problem talking to or working with civilians. I can't speak for every rated officer, but I know a vast majority of the pilots would excel dealing with the oversight of civilians. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work with civilians.  Most of us switch jobs in a squadron every year so we are all fully capable. I've had contractors working directly for me. If I had it my way, more contractors would do the queep jobs in squadrons to free up flyers to you know, fly!

Task managing a contractor and leading federal civilians are two different animals. You may give the contractor a task, but his corporate management is responsible for his care and feeding. Regarding the civilian workforce, there are a few of those stereotypical civilians that contribute absolutely nothing to the cause. There is also a majority who love their association with the military and are literally begging for someone to fully utilize their talent and develop them into the employees that  we need. I will never forget the sight of a 65 year old wage grade civilian with a high school diploma (maybe) on his back in the frozen mud at 0300 trying to get a snowplow back online with a smile on his face. He didn’t have to do that...how can we inspire the civilian workforce to be more like that guy, or hire 10 more of him?

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Edited December 5, 2018 by frog

[FLEA]

On 11/25/2018 at 12:45 PM, HarleyQuinn said:

 

I became a COR with my most recent job and its honestly awful. Your contractor is only accountable to his company and has a moral obligation to pad their bottom line. Meanwhile you have a moral obligation to the government to insure fraud waste and abuse arent being comitted. Its an art form, to go be a dick and tell them something isnt going to fly but then bro it up enough to get them to inprove work on another project. At least in my expereince the PWS is never specific enough to get the quality of work the AF is accustomed to. Now I have worked with great contractors in the past but not in an oversight roll. So now im just curious if it was really great or the commander was able to hide the uglier bits from us at the line level to promote good working relationships. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by FLEA

[HarleyQuinn]

4 hours ago, MooseClub said:

^That checks. 

I’ve had some experience with GS & contractors and you’re right, for many of us typical pilot types it won’t compute. That’s a different world. Approach them the wrong way and they’ll just slow roll shit till you move on to another position. Easy enough for them to just wait you out. 

If civilians or contractors are slow rolling work because of you. Then you are probably the problem and you need to check your leadership style. Some dudes like to bark at civilians. You can't just bark at contractors or a GS like they are in the military. See how that works out for you after being passed over twice and having to work a civilian job where there is no such thing as rank.

Edited December 5, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[ThreeHoler]

That said, people bitched about the same shit during the Cold War, and will still bitch about the same stuff 69 years from now when we finally let Kabul cave in.

~Bendy

You are quite the optimist!