Promotion and PRF Information

[08Dawg]

22 hours ago, BeefBears said:

 On that note, the post-COVID digital SOS has got to be a hoot right now...

Bros have been saying it’s like cramming a masters class into five weeks. Fun like a toothache...

[pawnman]

1 minute ago, 08Dawg said:

Bros have been saying it’s like cramming a masters class into five weeks. Fun like a toothache...

I can't imagine how they got enough material for that.  In person seemed like we were getting out early every day and even that was after they stretched the material as far as it would go.

[jazzdude]

On that note, the post-COVID digital SOS has got to be a hoot right now...

If only there was an online program that covered the learning objectives of SOS in a distance learning type environment...

[IDALPHA]

3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

 

 

If only there was an online program that covered the learning objectives of SOS in a distance learning type environment...

 

Agreed.... something online that can be a pre-requisite for attending in-residence when we get back to normal. Like 2007-2017.

[GKinnear]

If I were king for a day, I'd cancel all in-res PME and move to a purely online/correspondence system. The cost-benefit analysis supports that decision from a pure financial one (no more PCS, TDY, travel costs) and a manpower one (uh, Pilot Shortage anyone?), as well as break the strangle hold of the self-licking ice cream cone that are the "selects" and "DGs".

 

I think COVID lockdowns are exposing the paradigms society at large have been stuck in and we need to re-evaluate what fits in a new "internet of things" reality.

 

Unfortunately, I think it's self-licking that gets all the attention from Big Blue. That's an intentional word choice, btw...

[MCO]

21 minutes ago, GKinnear said:

If I were king for a day, I'd cancel all in-res PME and move to a purely online/correspondence system. The cost-benefit analysis supports that decision from a pure financial one (no more PCS, TDY, travel costs) and a manpower one (uh, Pilot Shortage anyone?), as well as break the strangle hold of the self-licking ice cream cone that are the "selects" and "DGs".

 

I think COVID lockdowns are exposing the paradigms society at large have been stuck in and we need to re-evaluate what fits in a new "internet of things" reality.

 

Unfortunately, I think it's self-licking that gets all the attention from Big Blue. That's an intentional word choice, btw...

If you are going to make me do PME by correspondence, then give me time to actually do it instead of telling me to do it in my off time. With actual time and if you do it right you could even make it more beneficial for people that put some effort into studying and through possibly networking. As something to do in my spare time I want to put as little effort into it as possible, and get little out of it. 

[14N Guy]

3 hours ago, GKinnear said:

If I were king for a day, I'd cancel all in-res PME and move to a purely online/correspondence system. The cost-benefit analysis supports that decision from a pure financial one (no more PCS, TDY, travel costs) and a manpower one (uh, Pilot Shortage anyone?), as well as break the strangle hold of the self-licking ice cream cone that are the "selects" and "DGs".

 

I think COVID lockdowns are exposing the paradigms society at large have been stuck in and we need to re-evaluate what fits in a new "internet of things" reality.

 

Unfortunately, I think it's self-licking that gets all the attention from Big Blue. That's an intentional word choice, btw...

I like this idea. I would take a step further and open it up to anybody that wants to do it, versus only allowing the top 20%. I would also tie in an option for folks do a career intermission to go to an in-person school for a Master's degree. I think one of the big problems facing the military is that we don't bring in a lot of the tools/ideas that work in the civilian sector, and that's because most leaders haven't been exposed to them. 

 

I did the ACSC OLMP and I enjoyed it. I won a research award (i got my name on a plaque at Maxwell), but, because it wasn't in-residence, it literally gained me nothing career-wise. So why does the AF currently offer this program if promotion boards/senior leaders don't feel they are worth the effort they ask folks to put into them?

[Bigred]

32 minutes ago, 14N Guy said:

I like this idea. I would take a step further and open it up to anybody that wants to do it, versus only allowing the top 20%. I would also tie in an option for folks do a career intermission to go to an in-person school for a Master's degree. I think one of the big problems facing the military is that we don't bring in a lot of the tools/ideas that work in the civilian sector, and that's because most leaders haven't been exposed to them. 

 

I did the ACSC OLMP and I enjoyed it. I won a research award (i got my name on a plaque at Maxwell), but, because it wasn't in-residence, it literally gained me nothing career-wise. So why does the AF currently offer this program if promotion boards/senior leaders don't feel they are worth the effort they ask folks to put into them?

Don’t the OSBs only say IDE/SDE complete now? No mention of in residence or correspondence. 
 

Not sure about masters degrees since those are masked till O-6 anyways. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bigred

[celtic020]

4 minutes ago, Bigred said:

Don’t the OSBs only say IDE/SDE complete now? No mention of in residence or correspondence. 
 

Not sure about masters degrees since those are masked till O-6 anyways. 

Affirm.  But it's a bit deceptive because your duty title and training report will indicate you attended school in residence.  Right or wrong, it's still a big-time discriminator and though they've reshuffled the guidance on PME recently, I've seen nothing to indicate a change in this paradigm.  School in-res is still a trump card.  

[CaptainMorgan]

Don’t the OSBs only say IDE/SDE complete now? No mention of in residence or correspondence. 
 
Not sure about masters degrees since those are masked till O-6 anyways. 

In-res will have a Training Report so the board still knows.


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[BigWing]

45 minutes ago, celtic020 said:

Affirm.  But it's a bit deceptive because your duty title and training report will indicate you attended school in residence.  Right or wrong, it's still a big-time discriminator and though they've reshuffled the guidance on PME recently, I've seen nothing to indicate a change in this paradigm.  School in-res is still a trump card.  

There's a chicken and egg debate that can go with this as well though. Is in-res IDE a big discriminator because of the development it provides or does it stand out to the board because it's an easy way to toss somebody into the select pile quickly because they've already been competitively selected and identified as being in the top 15% or so? I've been told by several bosses that it's easy to pick out the top 10%-15% and the bottom 10%-15%, it's the rack and stack of the middle 70%-80% that's a lot tougher. I guess Ps vs DPs are the same, although in an ideal world DPs wouldn't be given as much weight as they actually are due to the nuances of people being in pools of varying size and quality based on the assignment they're in when their PRF accountability date hits. If in-res IDE can be used as a discriminator to give the board more time to review records of those in the middle to help them correctly identify the most deserving, I'm all for it. 

[IDALPHA]

What is the point? The actual goal? This is the curriculum (IDE/SDE) that makes a better O-5? O-6? Spending this time in lieu of investing it in your actual job/family/hobbies is really THAT beneficial?  At least a masters degree helps on a civilian resume.....

[GKinnear]

14 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

So why does the AF currently offer this program if promotion boards/senior leaders don't feel they are worth the effort they ask folks to put into them?

This and what @MCO said about getting little out of it...I'd actually take it one step further and completely revamp PME and form a partnership with a 3rd party university (brick-and-morter school or online). Have some core classes to learn AF history/strategy planning applications, but the rest would be a list of elective classes under several umbrella topics...leadership, counseling, strategic writing, etc.

The idea is to make the experience beneficial to the USAF and the Airman, vs the forced hazing and stat padding for the chosen few.

Oh, and if forced to keep in-residence PME...you should only go once in your career. We currently lose 2+ years for HPO Patches for glorified admin. Not the best use of our talent.

[frog]

14 hours ago, IDALPHA said:

What is the point? The actual goal? This is the curriculum (IDE/SDE) that makes a better O-5? O-6? Spending this time in lieu of investing it in your actual job/family/hobbies is really THAT beneficial?  At least a masters degree helps on a civilian resume.....

From Enclosure A:

 PME Outcomes. PME and JPME programs must provide graduates the knowledge and skills to prepare them for service as joint warfighting leaders, senior staff officers, and strategists who:
a. Discern the military dimensions of a challenge affecting national interest; frame the issue at the policy level; and recommend viable military options within the overarching frameworks of globally integrated operations.
b. Anticipate and lead rapid adaptation and innovation during a dynamic period of acceleration in the rate of change in warfare under the conditions of great power competition and disruptive technology.
c. Conduct joint warfighting, at the operational to strategic levels, as all- domain, globally integrated warfare, including the ability to integrate allied and partner contributions.
d. Are strategically-minded warfighters or applied strategists who can execute and adapt strategy through campaigns and operations; and
e. Demonstrate critical and creative thinking skills, interpersonal skills, and effective written, verbal, and visual communications skills to support the development and implementation of strategies and complex operations.

//BREAK//

I know the status quo is to hate on the Air Force, but PME is a CJCS managed program that is mandated by the Goldwater-Nichols act. It isn’t going anywhere any time soon. 
 

ACSC in-correspondence is useless unless the Air Force gives you time to really study and learn the material. Beyond that complaint, you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC, and there is very little the AF can do about it. There is honor in staying in the squadron, flying, avoiding PME, and retiring as an O-4 as long as you understand that you are limiting your opportunities for advancement in the larger AF and joint communities.

[Jetpilot]

Any rumors on whether the O-5 list will be out this week?

 

 

[pawnman]

10 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Any rumors on whether the O-5 list will be out this week?

 

 

I doubt they want to overshadow the E-5 release even if the list is ready.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, frog said:

retiring as an O-4 as long as you understand that you are limiting your opportunities for advancement in the larger AF and joint communities.

The pay bump was motive enough for me to check the boxes I needed to check to make O-5.  Money isn't everything, but it ain't nothing neither, as they say.

[IDALPHA]

3 hours ago, frog said:

you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC, and there is very little the AF can do about it. There is honor in staying in the squadron, flying, avoiding PME, and retiring as an O-4 as long as you understand that you are limiting your opportunities for advancement in the larger AF and joint communities.

Some dudes I know hit the “push to test” and are awaiting results now.... One with a DP. No ACSC. 

[IDALPHA]

8 hours ago, frog said:

From Enclosure A:

 PME Outcomes. PME and JPME programs must provide graduates the knowledge and skills to prepare them for service as joint warfighting leaders, senior staff officers, and strategists who:
a. Discern the military dimensions of a challenge affecting national interest; frame the issue at the policy level; and recommend viable military options within the overarching frameworks of globally integrated operations.
b. Anticipate and lead rapid adaptation and innovation during a dynamic period of acceleration in the rate of change in warfare under the conditions of great power competition and disruptive technology.
c. Conduct joint warfighting, at the operational to strategic levels, as all- domain, globally integrated warfare, including the ability to integrate allied and partner contributions.
d. Are strategically-minded warfighters or applied strategists who can execute and adapt strategy through campaigns and operations; and
e. Demonstrate critical and creative thinking skills, interpersonal skills, and effective written, verbal, and visual communications skills to support the development and implementation of strategies and complex operations.

//BREAK//

I know the status quo is to hate on the Air Force, but PME is a CJCS managed program that is mandated by the Goldwater-Nichols act. It isn’t going anywhere any time soon. 
 

ACSC in-correspondence is useless unless the Air Force gives you time to really study and learn the material. 

So the curriculum for online ACSC/SOS are effectively accomplishing these requirements?

Without mandated time to accomplish it?

Sounds like more checking of a container because there is a Goldwater-Nichols Act to back it. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by IDALPHA
English

[BKANO]

18 hours ago, frog said:

From Enclosure A:

 PME Outcomes. PME and JPME programs must provide graduates the knowledge and skills to prepare them for service as joint warfighting leaders, senior staff officers, and strategists who:
a. Discern the military dimensions of a challenge affecting national interest; frame the issue at the policy level; and recommend viable military options within the overarching frameworks of globally integrated operations.
b. Anticipate and lead rapid adaptation and innovation during a dynamic period of acceleration in the rate of change in warfare under the conditions of great power competition and disruptive technology.
c. Conduct joint warfighting, at the operational to strategic levels, as all- domain, globally integrated warfare, including the ability to integrate allied and partner contributions.
d. Are strategically-minded warfighters or applied strategists who can execute and adapt strategy through campaigns and operations; and
e. Demonstrate critical and creative thinking skills, interpersonal skills, and effective written, verbal, and visual communications skills to support the development and implementation of strategies and complex operations.

//BREAK//

I know the status quo is to hate on the Air Force, but PME is a CJCS managed program that is mandated by the Goldwater-Nichols act. It isn’t going anywhere any time soon. 
 

ACSC in-correspondence is useless unless the Air Force gives you time to really study and learn the material. Beyond that complaint, you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC, and there is very little the AF can do about it. There is honor in staying in the squadron, flying, avoiding PME, and retiring as an O-4 as long as you understand that you are limiting your opportunities for advancement in the larger AF and joint communities.

"you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC." That is not true. I know a guy that got promoted to O5 without ACSC on the last promotion board. He did get a DP though. Check the statistics for the last board on MYPERS.

[bennynova]

Welp, the staff Sgt list is publicly released now.   
 

seems to have been with leadership for the past week or 2.    Still no word on O5 list

[frog]

3 hours ago, BKANO said:

"you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC." That is not true. I know a guy that got promoted to O5 without ACSC on the last promotion board. He did get a DP though. Check the statistics for the last board on MYPERS.

I’ll check it out, thanks. 🍺

[Negatory]

8 hours ago, BKANO said:

"you aren’t going to promote to O-5 without ACSC." That is not true. I know a guy that got promoted to O5 without ACSC on the last promotion board. He did get a DP though. Check the statistics for the last board on MYPERS.

Let’s be honest, though. It’s pretty true. I know 2 people that did not promote in the same case with a DP.

[BKANO]

3 hours ago, brawnie said:

Let’s be honest, though. It’s pretty true. I know 2 people that did not promote in the same case with a DP.

A few  people have been promoted to O5 without ACSC and without a DP so it is possible.  

32 people were promoted last year that did not have IDE and just received a promote on their PRF.

and 28 people were promoted last year that did have a DP but no IDE. 

The results this year may be different due to the different buckets people now fall under, however i expect that across the board you will probably have at least 50 people that get promoted without IDE. 

[BigWing]

9 hours ago, BKANO said:

A few  people have been promoted to O5 without ACSC and without a DP so it is possible.  

32 people were promoted last year that did not have IDE and just received a promote on their PRF.

and 28 people were promoted last year that did have a DP but no IDE. 

The results this year may be different due to the different buckets people now fall under, however i expect that across the board you will probably have at least 50 people that get promoted without IDE. 

Something to consider about these numbers is that anyone who is currently attending in-res IDE but who hasn't completed ACSC via correspondence will show up in the "No IDE" category. Their OPB will show "Select" until they graduate to let the board know that the person is a student and didn't blow it off. I suspect that a majority of the no IDE promotees were third look to school and either didn't do correspondence because they were a select off the board or just rolled the dice on getting picked up. I'm not saying that some of these people didn't do IDE at all, but I don't think that its as common as it would appear on the surface. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by BigWing
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