Promotion and PRF Information

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, 14N Guy said:

You should get the option of continuing to 20 or 24 years, but it isn’t an ADSC, just an option. I chose the 24 years but I am getting out in 24 months.

My good friend just retired as an O-4 and several non-selects. He was offered continuation up to 24 but could get out any time he wanted prior to. 
 

I only mention it because I was surprised, I didn’t realize it was basically up to the individual on when to get out if they accepted continuation. I thought it was agreeing to stay till 24. 
 

 

[Nodeskjobs]

7 minutes ago, Bigred said:

My good friend just retired as an O-4 and several non-selects. He was offered continuation up to 24 but could get out any time he wanted prior to. 
 

I only mention it because I was surprised, I didn’t realize it was basically up to the individual on when to get out if they accepted continuation. I thought it was agreeing to stay till 24. 
 

 

Wait one minute. That’s only if you don’t have any existing ADSCs correct. I have a bonus ADSC that takes me to 2023. 

[KWings06j]

25 minutes ago, Nodeskjobs said:

Wait one minute. That’s only if you don’t have any existing ADSCs correct. I have a bonus ADSC that takes me to 2023. 

If you reject continuation your existing ADSCs don't matter anymore though there may be consequences for GI bill transfer and others potentially. If you accept continuation then you are still on the hook for any ADSCs up to the expiration of your continuation. Once you run out of ADSCs then continuation doesn't force you to stay in

[Bigred]

16 minutes ago, KWings06j said:

If you reject continuation your existing ADSCs don't matter anymore though there may be consequences for GI bill transfer and others potentially. If you accept continuation then you are still on the hook for any ADSCs up to the expiration of your continuation. Once you run out of ADSCs then continuation doesn't force you to stay in

That’s how he explained it to me. He didn’t want to get stuck with a PCS ADSC.

[Nodeskjobs]

8 minutes ago, Bigred said:

That’s how he explained it to me. He didn’t want to get stuck with a PCS ADSC.

Good deal. I believe I have a good understanding. My only ADSCs are PCS (Jul 2022), and Bonus (Apr 2023). Assuming it was this board, If I declined continuation, I would have to retire NLT 1 Jan 2022.

If I accepted continuation to say 24 years (May 2024), then the 2 ADSCs would remain?

[dream big]

5 hours ago, KWings06j said:

Do they typically notify non selects first or is it just random?

Typically non-selects, it would suck to hear about not being promoted after your peers who do find out, or to find out when the list comes out.  Sometimes the Air Force has a heart..

Sorry to those of you who didn’t make it.  You just never know what the current crop of 0-6/0-7s grading your record care about nor what the board as a whole is asked to place emphasis in.  It’s the largest smoke and mirrors game.  A mentor told me that a few years ago, they valued combat time above all else, then a couple years later they valued special programs/exec work above all else. 
 

I know it stings, but your rank doesn’t define you.  Your lack of promotion was not a reflection of you, but how a handful of 0-6/0-7s perceived your records.  The dudes I respected the most as an LT were often passed over majors.  They didn’t have to play the game, they just excelled at their primary duty and spent their time at work smiling and happy, instead of playing the game.  

[herkbum]

Tomorrow’s a Federal Holiday? I did not get that memo...

~Bendy

I’ve been retired almost 3 months and I received a text, a phone call, and an email telling me it was a holiday. Time for them to get me off the notification lists.


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[14N Guy]

Does anybody know how much weight a DP actually gives your record to the board? Everything I’ve ever heard/been told is that a DP is a golden Beebee in all but the most extreme cases of adverse records.

Does a DP add X points to your total board score? I guess what I don’t understand is how there is any justification for promoting any record with a P over a record with a DP (again, excluding records with negative indicators…but again, somebody gave them a DP so…)?

I will be very interested in seeing the RAW data for this promotion because I know they always promote at least one APZ record with a P. So how would the board justify promoting a P APZ record and not a DP APZ record (not that any board will ever be held accountable for any decision they make)?

Any insight is welcome because I don’t think I have ever received a clear explanation on what a DP really does for your board score.

Edited June 18, 2021 by 14N Guy

[jazzdude]

 You just never know what the current crop of 0-6/0-7s grading your record care about nor what the board as a whole is asked to place emphasis in.  It’s the largest smoke and mirrors game.  

Had a boss show me where I could find the generic memorandum of instruction for promotions (it's on mypers in the promotion section). Good read on what the boards are told to value when scoring. His take was to try and have your OPR touch on all of the points in the MOI if possible.

They also added (in the last year) career fields expectations as well that outlines what each career field values at different points in your career. Also found on mypers in the promotion section.

That being said, "job performance" can be nebulous like you mentioned.

[Bigred]

9 hours ago, Nodeskjobs said:

Good deal. I believe I have a good understanding. My only ADSCs are PCS (Jul 2022), and Bonus (Apr 2023). Assuming it was this board, If I declined continuation, I would have to retire NLT 1 Jan 2022.

If I accepted continuation to say 24 years (May 2024), then the 2 ADSCs would remain?

The way I understand it, yes, if you accepted continuation to 24 your two ADSCs remain. If you didn’t they don’t. 
 

If you are actually in this situation please verify with MPF/etc. This was the case last year so I don’t know if the rules changed.

[bennynova]

If the notification period is 18-22 June, then in my experience, the LATER you are notified, the more likely you are to be a NO GO for promotion.

Likewise, a phone call out of the blue vs a scheduled meeting.    If you are scheduled a meeting, the more likely you are a NO GO.

 

that being said, i am scheduled for a meeting on Tuesday!  I also already know through back channels that I am a NON-promote

 

Received a P on overall recommendation

Bottom Line of 2-line PRF:  “#2/3 I/APZ; #2/11 Majs--beyond ready for Lt Col; Def Promote (verbiage)”

Last 7 OPRs:

#1/8 CGOs, (Flt/CC)

#1/4 USAF Majs, Deployed OSD SES; #6/26 Majs (Gp/CC)

#24/144 Majs (Wg/CC)

#7/153 Majs (Wg/CC)

#1/2 Majs (Div/CC)

#3/7 Majs (SES)

#2/10 Majs (SES)

--11x FOGQ and 2x FGOYs

zero negative indicators ever (pt, DUI, anything)

 

I'm not sure what they are looking for strat wise.  even when they have changed all stratifications to exclude the 2nd and 3rd tier strats, i don't even have any of those; i thought i'd be "good to go".

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by bennynova

[MCO]

4 hours ago, bennynova said:

If the notification period is 18-22 June, then in my experience, the LATER you are notified, the more likely you are to be a NO GO for promotion.

Likewise, a phone call out of the blue vs a scheduled meeting.    If you are scheduled a meeting, the more likely you are a NO GO.

 

that being said, i am scheduled for a meeting on Tuesday!  I also already know through back channels that I am a NON-promote

 

Received a P on overall recommendation

Bottom Line of 2-line PRF:  “#2/3 I/APZ; #2/11 Majs--beyond ready for Lt Col; Def Promote (verbiage)”

Last 7 OPRs:

#1/8 CGOs, (Flt/CC)

#1/4 USAF Majs, Deployed OSD SES; #6/26 Majs (Gp/CC)

#24/144 Majs (Wg/CC)

#7/153 Majs (Wg/CC)

#1/2 Majs (Div/CC)

#3/7 Majs (SES)

#2/10 Majs (SES)

--11x FOGQ and 2x FGOYs

zero negative indicators ever (pt, DUI, anything)

 

I'm not sure what they are looking for strat wise.  even when they have changed all stratifications to exclude the 2nd and 3rd tier strats, i don't even have any of those; i thought i'd be "good to go".

 

 

 

 

Without seeing the rest of your record or the full OPRs and just going off those strats, the result doesn’t make sense.

[14N Guy]

5 hours ago, bennynova said:

If the notification period is 18-22 June, then in my experience, the LATER you are notified, the more likely you are to be a NO GO for promotion.

Likewise, a phone call out of the blue vs a scheduled meeting.    If you are scheduled a meeting, the more likely you are a NO GO.

 

that being said, i am scheduled for a meeting on Tuesday!  I also already know through back channels that I am a NON-promote

 

Received a P on overall recommendation

Bottom Line of 2-line PRF:  “#2/3 I/APZ; #2/11 Majs--beyond ready for Lt Col; Def Promote (verbiage)”

Last 7 OPRs:

#1/8 CGOs, (Flt/CC)

#1/4 USAF Majs, Deployed OSD SES; #6/26 Majs (Gp/CC)

#24/144 Majs (Wg/CC)

#7/153 Majs (Wg/CC)

#1/2 Majs (Div/CC)

#3/7 Majs (SES)

#2/10 Majs (SES)

--11x FOGQ and 2x FGOYs

zero negative indicators ever (pt, DUI, anything)

 

I'm not sure what they are looking for strat wise.  even when they have changed all stratifications to exclude the 2nd and 3rd tier strats, i don't even have any of those; i thought i'd be "good to go".

 

 

 

 

Tell me the system is still broken without telling me the system is still broken.

[FLEA]

6 hours ago, bennynova said:

If the notification period is 18-22 June, then in my experience, the LATER you are notified, the more likely you are to be a NO GO for promotion.

Likewise, a phone call out of the blue vs a scheduled meeting.    If you are scheduled a meeting, the more likely you are a NO GO.

 

that being said, i am scheduled for a meeting on Tuesday!  I also already know through back channels that I am a NON-promote

 

Received a P on overall recommendation

Bottom Line of 2-line PRF:  “#2/3 I/APZ; #2/11 Majs--beyond ready for Lt Col; Def Promote (verbiage)”

Last 7 OPRs:

#1/8 CGOs, (Flt/CC)

#1/4 USAF Majs, Deployed OSD SES; #6/26 Majs (Gp/CC)

#24/144 Majs (Wg/CC)

#7/153 Majs (Wg/CC)

#1/2 Majs (Div/CC)

#3/7 Majs (SES)

#2/10 Majs (SES)

--11x FOGQ and 2x FGOYs

zero negative indicators ever (pt, DUI, anything)

 

I'm not sure what they are looking for strat wise.  even when they have changed all stratifications to exclude the 2nd and 3rd tier strats, i don't even have any of those; i thought i'd be "good to go".

 

 

 

 

The only thing I see as a potential flag is your final CGO strat being at the flight commander level which is a little strange to me. For one, I would ask why you were under a flight command as a senior Captain. By this point most are graduated flight commanders. Secondly, usually by this point you've attrited enough of the totem poll to get a wing or group level strat. Especially since you move off the wg/gp role the next year. Everything else looks fine to me. Shit tons of FGO awards. Were they all at the squadron/division or higher? If so then I'm instantly discounting every fricken rater who has given feedback that FGO awards are important. (I already suspect they're not since a lot of staffs did away with that category.) 

 

Edit: Should disclaimer I rarely know what I'm talking about and this is in no way meant to be feedback. I'm as much curious about this boards decision as anyone else here. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by FLEA

[bennynova]

26 minutes ago, FLEA said:

The only thing I see as a potential flag is your final CGO strat being at the flight commander level which is a little strange to me. For one, I would ask why you were under a flight command as a senior Captain. By this point most are graduated flight commanders. Secondly, usually by this point you've attrited enough of the totem poll to get a wing or group level strat. Especially since you move off the wg/gp role the next year. Everything else looks fine to me. Shit tons of FGO awards. Were they all at the squadron/division or higher? If so then I'm instantly discounting every fricken rater who has given feedback that FGO awards are important. (I already suspect they're not since a lot of staffs did away with that category.) 

 

Edit: Should disclaimer I rarely know what I'm talking about and this is in no way meant to be feedback. I'm as much curious about this boards decision as anyone else here. 

great catch, and you are correct.   I didn't have many strats at all as a Lt.  and as a Jr. Capt.  I DID have a lot of strats as a mid-grade Captain.  As such, i was passed over for Major, and was a Capt for 4 years too long.  During that time, i wasn't "allowed" to have any jobs that showed progression (as they took away from others having that opportunity).   During that time i was an "Assistant Flt Commander" for an OPR and then an ADO with other Majors (but i didn't get the ADO name, i stayed an Assistant Flt/CC..... both rated on by a Capt!  

I also wasn't eligible for awards during that time, because i had no AF future.    Seems as though they were right.  I have no future.  

I've learned 2x lessons out of this.   

1.  We are ALL better than the AF and should not be defined by what the AF thinks of your promotion package.  

2.  It ONLY matters what you do as an Lt and young Captain.  after that, its a self-licking ice cream cone in one direction or the other, and NOTHING you can do will change that momentum.    

Edited June 21, 2021 by bennynova

[Nodeskjobs]

28 minutes ago, bennynova said:

great catch, and you are correct.   I didn't have many strats at all as a Lt.  and as a Jr. Capt.  I DID have a lot of strats as a mid-grade Captain.  As such, i was passed over for Major, and was a Capt for 4 years too long.  During that time, i wasn't "allowed" to have any jobs that showed progression (as they took away from others having that opportunity).   During that time i was an "Assistant Flt Commander" for an OPR and then an ADO with other Majors (but i didn't get the ADO name, i stayed an Assistant Flt/CC..... both rated on by a Capt!  

I also wasn't eligible for awards during that time, because i had no AF future.    Seems as though they were right.  I have no future.  

I've learned 2x lessons out of this.   

1.  We are ALL better than the AF and should not be defined by what the AF thinks of your promotion package.  

2.  It ONLY matters what you do as an Lt and young Captain.  after that, its a self-licking ice cream cone in one direction or the other, and NOTHING you can do will change that momentum.    

I’m in a similar boat (no progression). Didn’t chase a “future” in the AF. Did what I loved, and completely happy with my results.  Being prior-E I knew early my promotion opportunities would be capped unless I wanted to give more than 20.  During my airline interviews, I was never asked about any of my office jobs. I did have plenty of flying stories though. 

[FLEA]

48 minutes ago, bennynova said:

great catch, and you are correct.   I didn't have many strats at all as a Lt.  and as a Jr. Capt.  I DID have a lot of strats as a mid-grade Captain.  As such, i was passed over for Major, and was a Capt for 4 years too long.  During that time, i wasn't "allowed" to have any jobs that showed progression (as they took away from others having that opportunity).   During that time i was an "Assistant Flt Commander" for an OPR and then an ADO with other Majors (but i didn't get the ADO name, i stayed an Assistant Flt/CC..... both rated on by a Capt!  

I also wasn't eligible for awards during that time, because i had no AF future.    Seems as though they were right.  I have no future.  

I've learned 2x lessons out of this.   

1.  We are ALL better than the AF and should not be defined by what the AF thinks of your promotion package.  

2.  It ONLY matters what you do as an Lt and young Captain.  after that, its a self-licking ice cream cone in one direction or the other, and NOTHING you can do will change that momentum.    

Point #1 is huge and been a big focus of my own introspection for several years. The AF has a way of making you feel like they define your value as a human being. They in fact do not, and the AF has proven time over it is actually very poor at determining any human value (i.e. talent) at all. 

[HeloDude]

42 minutes ago, bennynova said:

2.  It ONLY matters what you do as an Lt and young Captain.  after that, its a self-licking ice cream cone in one direction or the other, and NOTHING you can do will change that momentum.    

Disagree man—if that were the case for me, then I wouldn’t have made O-5.  I was a Top 1/3 graduate at SOS and was a Wing CGO/qtr, but had very few strats as a Lt and Capt (and those weren’t anything great).  As a Major in a staff job I just did my normal stuff, but I guess that was enough for my O-6 to give me a couple of solid Major strats and pulled a DP on my IPZ board from the 2-star…which is what really matters to your O-5 board IMO.  That and a breadth of different experiences (ie duty titles)/leadership roles.  I’ve also since been a Wing DS and had a voice on the wing strat meetings…a Major can get a solid push if the bosses think they deserve it, regardless of their prior record.

But I’ll also add this—competition is everything.  If you’re competing with weak swimmers, it’s much easier to look good and that can be a make or break when it comes to strats, awards, and getting a P vs a DP.

Sucks to hear about you and other good guys and gals getting passed over.  I just wanted to add a bit of a different perspective.  Good luck!

[Nodeskjobs]

Just got the call-No-go for me 😂. Now 1 more non-select 🤞  here’s to hoping they don’t change the twice passed over rule next board. Funny thing is they denied my ADSC waiver to retire. Oh well. Best of luck to everyone out there

[bennynova]

If we are now in the 5 IPZ years to O5, then I don’t see how the 2 and out rule applies. 
 

I am sanctuaried for retirement now.  And punching out first chance. 

[Nodeskjobs]

30 minutes ago, bennynova said:

If we are now in the 5 IPZ years to O5, then I don’t see how the 2 and out rule applies. 
 

I am sanctuaried for retirement now.  And punching out first chance. 

From my last discussion with AFPC they still have the twice passed over rule. It doesn’t make sense to me which is why I’m trying to find out from someone that’s on their 2nd look this board

[CaptainMorgan]

If we are now in the 5 IPZ years to O5, then I don’t see how the 2 and out rule applies. 
 
I am sanctuaried for retirement now.  And punching out first chance. 

5 IPZ hasn’t started yet


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[Slow-Smooth-Fast]

9 hours ago, bennynova said:

If we are now in the 5 IPZ years to O5, then I don’t see how the 2 and out rule applies. 
 

I am sanctuaried for retirement now.  And punching out first chance. 

 

8 hours ago, Nodeskjobs said:

From my last discussion with AFPC they still have the twice passed over rule. It doesn’t make sense to me which is why I’m trying to find out from someone that’s on their 2nd look this board

The AF still has to follow federal law (DOPMA), which stipulates the amount of looks officers get.  I'm guessing this is part of the reason why the 5 IPZ idea hasn't been implemented.

 

[Bigred]

4 hours ago, Slow-Smooth-Fast said:

 

The AF still has to follow federal law (DOPMA), which stipulates the amount of looks officers get.  I'm guessing this is part of the reason why the 5 IPZ idea hasn't been implemented.

 

That’s an excellent point. The NDAA authorized the 5 looks, but if it conflicts with DOPMA, which takes precedent? 

[Swizzle]

This, BigRed, and AF doesn't understand all the implications yet, the 5 yr look is NOT yet mandatory but recommended legally I believe (prob. to get the glacier moving that way before legally mandatory)

Edited June 22, 2021 by Swizzle
Quoting BigRed