Promotion and PRF Information

[jrizzell]

Does anyone that just wants to fly the line really care about the rank, or just the extra pay that comes with the (Lt Col) rank?

Honestly for me the main driving force to try for Lt Col, was being able to retire at 20. I was deployed while a passed over pilot was recalled to separate. There was also a good dude, fellow squadron mate that also had separate. Both guys, 3 years away from the check of the month club. That 2011 debacle worried me, and I knew if I didn’t make O-5, there was no guarantee I’d be able to retire. Thankfully for me, after I was passed over, I was continued.


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[jazzdude]

Honestly for me the main driving force to try for Lt Col, was being able to retire at 20. I was deployed while a passed over pilot was recalled to separate. There was also a good dude, fellow squadron mate that also had separate. Both guys, 3 years away from the check of the month club. That 2011 debacle worried me, and I knew if I didn’t make O-5, there was no guarantee I’d be able to retire. Thankfully for me, after I was passed over, I was continued.


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Copy, that makes sense.

[pawnman]

13 hours ago, jazzdude said:

Does anyone that just wants to fly the line really care about the rank, or just the extra pay that comes with the (Lt Col) rank? Better flight pay or bonus options could make up the pay difference, and that's where the focus should be, particularly since the number of O-5s the AF can have is limited.

Though I guess the problem is that the AF isn't going to increase pilot pay (through flight pay or a pro pay), and the bonus has gotten worse and probably will continue on that path. Especially since 11M are now "100% manned" and 11Rs are "overmanned"...

A big part of it is getting told how valuable you are, how necessary to the force, how you are vital to national defense...then getting passed over.  The passing over shows you what the Air Force values, and it's not whatever you've been doing for the last 15+ years.  So if you've even a little on the fence, it's an added incentive to join an organization that DOES value what you do, and shows it through your pay and seniority numbers (the airlines) instead of staying in an organization that claims to value you but acts as if it does not.

The extra pay is nice, though.  For me, due to my ADSC for the bonus, it'll translate into an extra ~$800/month in retirement, or just shy of ~$10K a year, vs retiring as a major.

[14N Guy]

Just looked at the LAF-I board stats. 3 APZ DP's (IDE Complete) were not selected (9/12 eligible), but 5 APZ P's (IDE complete) were selected (5/186 eligible).

Looking at all of the other boards, the same thing happened. So how does that make any sense at all? How does the board justify selecting any APZ P over any APZ DP, especially when they all have IDE complete?

That is actually a serious question, because, if a DP is supposed to be a significant identifier, especially for APZ folks, how do you promote people that weren't awarded a DP over those that were? 

[Blue]

2 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

 how do you promote people that weren't awarded a DP over those that were? 

I am very far removed from these circles, and my only current contribution to the military is being a taxpayer.

That said, in the civvie world, when a promotion doesn’t make logical sense (not based on merit, etc), the usual answer seems to be based in meeting some diversity metric.

YMMV.

[Bigred]

3 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

Just looked at the LAF-I board stats. 3 APZ DP's (IDE Complete) were not selected (9/12 eligible), but 5 APZ P's (IDE complete) were selected (5/186 eligible).

Looking at all of the other boards, the same thing happened. So how does that make any sense at all? How does the board justify selecting any APZ P over any APZ DP, especially when they all have IDE complete?

That is actually a serious question, because, if a DP is supposed to be a significant identifier, especially for APZ folks, how do you promote people that weren't awarded a DP over those that were? 

At my base, we got zero DPs for this O-5 board. So, the flip side is how to you rank the #1 guy from a base who had zero chance of getting a DP vs someone from another base who got one? 
 

In this example, the #1 guy with a P did in fact get selected for O-5 this board.

[14N Guy]

16 minutes ago, Bigred said:

At my base, we got zero DPs for this O-5 board. So, the flip side is how to you rank the #1 guy from a base who had zero chance of getting a DP vs someone from another base who got one? 
 

In this example, the #1 guy with a P did in fact get selected for O-5 this board.

Isn't that what the MLR is for? So individuals at units that don't have enough eligibles for a DP have a chance at getting a DP?

I get IPZ folks with a P getting selected, but I can't understand APZ folks with a DP not being selected over APZ folks with a P. It's all moot at this point, but it is just head scratching to me.

Edited June 25, 2021 by 14N Guy

[Bigred]

5 minutes ago, 14N Guy said:

Isn't that what the MLR is for?

It is, but it’s not guaranteed to get a DP from the MLR. 

[14N Guy]

Just now, Bigred said:

It is, but it’s not guaranteed to get a DP from the MLR. 

Right, totally get it. Sorry, edited my post as your were responding to better flesh out my thoughts.

I know I will never get an answer from AF leadership, but I would love to hear an explanation of their thought process on when they pass over folks that have been given a DP at any level for folks that have a P.

[HeloDude]

3 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

Right, totally get it. Sorry, edited my post as your were responding to better flesh out my thoughts.

I know I will never get an answer from AF leadership, but I would love to hear an explanation of their thought process on when they pass over folks that have been given a DP at any level for folks that have a P.

Perhaps the board looked at the entire records of all those eligible and scored them as they saw them?  As frustrating as it is, I’m sure you wouldn’t have been as upset if you were one of those promoted with a P over someone with a DP.

As much as it sucks for those good folks getting passed over, especially with a DP, I’m glad to see more people with a P getting promoted, even if that means some with a DP aren’t getting promoted—it means an (supposedly) impartial  board is actually looking at the entire record.  

[MCO]

9 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

Right, totally get it. Sorry, edited my post as your were responding to better flesh out my thoughts.

I know I will never get an answer from AF leadership, but I would love to hear an explanation of their thought process on when they pass over folks that have been given a DP at any level for folks that have a P.

I get your frustration but without being able to compare the entire records against one another there is no way to really know what was going on. At a glance it seems like a DP should get the nod but there is more to a record than that. There is just no way to know if you really agree with the decision without access to all of the entire records.

[dream big]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:46 AM, 14N Guy said:

Just looked at the LAF-I board stats. 3 APZ DP's (IDE Complete) were not selected (9/12 eligible), but 5 APZ P's (IDE complete) were selected (5/186 eligible).

Looking at all of the other boards, the same thing happened. So how does that make any sense at all? How does the board justify selecting any APZ P over any APZ DP, especially when they all have IDE complete?

That is actually a serious question, because, if a DP is supposed to be a significant identifier, especially for APZ folks, how do you promote people that weren't awarded a DP over those that were? 

I’m being 100% serious, I’d be curious to see the demographics of the 5 APZ Ps v you 3 APZ DPs.  Wouldn’t surprise me in our current environment.

[hindsight2020]

On 6/24/2021 at 6:24 PM, jrizzell said:

 

Honestly for me the main driving force to try for Lt Col, was being able to retire at 20. I was deployed while a passed over pilot was recalled to separate. There was also a good dude, fellow squadron mate that also had separate. Both guys, 3 years away from the check of the month club. That 2011 debacle worried me, and I knew if I didn’t make O-5, there was no guarantee I’d be able to retire. Thankfully for me, after I was passed over, I was continued.


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It's moot now of course, but the 2011 casualties we interacted with, all were able to make it to the check of the month via the ARC if they so chose to. All the ones I dealt with indeed promoted to O-5 and attained active duty retirements from it no less. We also dealt with many from the 2013-14 VSP/RIF round, same deal.  Again, we hired several of them, and they admit it's the best thing that could have ever happen to them looking back.

It was certainly a crazy ivan flex at the time from mother blue for those 150 odd Majors, but it also shows the idea of getting the retirement rug terminally pulled from under you is greatly overblown. You just have to be willing to call that bluff. Once you make it to O-4, there are plenty avenues to make it to 20 and beyond outside the Active Duty sausage maker. Just a friendly PSA for those still debating continuing to practice bleeding in the AD over fears they can't get to retirement Shangri-La as O-4s.

[Khruangbin33]

On 6/27/2021 at 2:15 AM, hindsight2020 said:

Once you make it to O-4, there are plenty avenues to make it to 20 and beyond outside the Active Duty sausage maker.

O-4 here, late-rated.  UPT ADSC won't expire until three years after my APZ look for O-5.    By my reckoning, that's too much ADSC to be considered for palace chase before getting passed over a second time (therefore ineligible for AFRC/ANG transfer), and non-continued in the worst case, leaving me compelled to continue to do the AD song and dance until the very end.  Have I painted myself into a corner?

[hindsight2020]

53 minutes ago, Khruangbin33 said:

O-4 here, late-rated.  UPT ADSC won't expire until three years after my APZ look for O-5.    By my reckoning, that's too much ADSC to be considered for palace chase before getting passed over a second time (therefore ineligible for AFRC/ANG transfer), and non-continued in the worst case, leaving me compelled to continue to do the AD song and dance until the very end.  Have I painted myself into a corner?

I dunno, I don't speak Active Duty "career progression" all that well. As to the bolded, I can't speak to the the assumptions you're making regarding your "ineligibility" to join the ARC. I've seen people Palace Chase in all manner and conditions the book answer says they can't, fwiw. Twice passed-over waivers are mere formalities in the ARC btw, what's more lengthy and difficult to do is the retire/re-hire.

As to non-continuation, it only matters how you feel about it, but I think those fears are overblown.

Again I don't know all the AD jargon intricacies of being passed over, but on the surface I don't see anything there that would preclude you from finishing in the ARC and making O-5, outside of running into MSD issues as an O-4 as a "late rate" into the 11(?) world.

[Nodeskjobs]

Is there a typical timeframe before the O-5 promotion board next year that they would determine if the 5-year window will be implemented?  Or how long before the board they determine if they will offer continuation?

 

TIA

[Nodeskjobs]

Question for the masses. I have my 2nd look in March. From previous boards I have about 1.7% chance of being promoted. I know there are differing opinions on writing letters to the board or not. However, I have no intentions of staying in. I have 22+ years AD (prior E), and a job already lined up. 
 

1). If I was non-selected would I keep the final payment of my bonus, because it pays out prior to board results?  Obviously if I write a DNP, that would be considered voluntary, thus would have to repay  

2). If I allow the board to play out, magically get promoted, but decline promotion,would I be forced out?  This para in the AFI makes me think if I decline promotion AFTER the board results, I would not be forced out NLT 1st day of 7th month, and my ADSCs would still be intact. “4.1.3.  Officers who decline a promotion remain on the promotion list for which they were selected”.  
 

TIA

[Bigred]

5 hours ago, Nodeskjobs said:

Question for the masses. I have my 2nd look in March. From previous boards I have about 1.7% chance of being promoted. I know there are differing opinions on writing letters to the board or not. However, I have no intentions of staying in. I have 22+ years AD (prior E), and a job already lined up. 
 

1). If I was non-selected would I keep the final payment of my bonus, because it pays out prior to board results?  Obviously if I write a DNP, that would be considered voluntary, thus would have to repay  

2). If I allow the board to play out, magically get promoted, but decline promotion,would I be forced out?  This para in the AFI makes me think if I decline promotion AFTER the board results, I would not be forced out NLT 1st day of 7th month, and my ADSCs would still be intact. “4.1.3.  Officers who decline a promotion remain on the promotion list for which they were selected”.  
 

TIA

My understanding is that if you are selected but decline promotion you stay in. The only way you get the NLT 7 month out option is if you fail to select twice. 

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, Nodeskjobs said:

Question for the masses. I have my 2nd look in March. From previous boards I have about 1.7% chance of being promoted. I know there are differing opinions on writing letters to the board or not. However, I have no intentions of staying in. I have 22+ years AD (prior E), and a job already lined up. 
 

1). If I was non-selected would I keep the final payment of my bonus, because it pays out prior to board results?  Obviously if I write a DNP, that would be considered voluntary, thus would have to repay  

2). If I allow the board to play out, magically get promoted, but decline promotion,would I be forced out?  This para in the AFI makes me think if I decline promotion AFTER the board results, I would not be forced out NLT 1st day of 7th month, and my ADSCs would still be intact. “4.1.3.  Officers who decline a promotion remain on the promotion list for which they were selected”.  
 

TIA

Dumb question: why would you decline the promotion? There's no ADSC associated with a promotion, although you do need 3 years in the new grade to retire at the new grade.  Bump up that high-3 pay, pocket the extra coin prior to retirement, still get out on your own timeline. 

Am I missing something here?

[Nodeskjobs]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Dumb question: why would you decline the promotion? There's no ADSC associated with a promotion, although you do need 3 years in the new grade to retire at the new grade.  Bump up that high-3 pay, pocket the extra coin prior to retirement, still get out on your own timeline. 

Am I missing something here?

No pawnman, you’re not missing anything. I appreciate the input/questioning. I want to make sure I’m not missing anything. I was already in the retirement process and with a major airline when COVID hit.
 

If I decline promotion (before the board), I believe I have to repay unearned portion of bonus. If not selected, I would keep the final payment as it would be “involuntary” retirement (not certain about this logic), but I can be out 1 Aug 22’ish.  If promoted, or decline promotion AFTER the board: 1). My ADSC would still be 1 May 2023, 2). I’d never pin on because I’d already be retired.
 

I’m a bottom feeder with no PME, and happily worked at the squadron level my whole career

Edited January 18, 2022 by Nodeskjobs

[CaptainMorgan]

No pawnman, you’re not missing anything. I appreciate the input/questioning. I want to make sure I’m not missing anything. I was already in the retirement process and with a major airline when COVID hit.
 
If I decline promotion (before the board), I believe I have to repay unearned portion of bonus. If not selected, I would keep the final payment as it would be “involuntary” retirement (not certain about this logic), but I can be out 1 Aug 22’ish.  If promoted, or decline promotion AFTER the board: 1). My ADSC would still be 1 May 2023, 2). I’d never pin on because I’d already be retired.
 
I’m a bottom feeder with no PME, and happily worked at the squadron level my whole career

You still payback any unearned portion per the ACP agreement. I think the only caveat is medical DQ, where you stop receiving, but don’t have to pay back any.


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[Nodeskjobs]

3 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

You still payback any unearned portion per the ACP agreement. I think the only caveat is medical DQ, where you stop receiving, but don’t have to pay back any.


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Yep, you’re right

[budderbar]

Does anyone know what is provided to selectees in the order of merit debrief?  Is it like your #X of X and need more wing/AF level awards along with what job experiences you will need in the future etc... 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, budderbar said:

Does anyone know what is provided to selectees in the order of merit debrief?  Is it like your #X of X and need more wing/AF level awards along with what job experiences you will need in the future etc... 

I just got "you needed broader experience, all you've done is fly your whole career."  Oh, and "you didn't get enough awards as a CGO"...Despite having about 8 FGO awards in 3 years as an FGO.

[BashiChuni]

2 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I just got "you needed broader experience, all you've done is fly your whole career."  Oh, and "you didn't get enough awards as a CGO"...Despite having about 8 FGO awards in 3 years as an FGO.

And you’re a nav. 
 

jk pawnman. Mad respect for flying your whole career from me.