Promotion and PRF Information

[busdriver]

15 minutes ago, JBueno said:

Is it possible that not having a master’s will have zero bearing on promotions for understaffed career fields?

Yes.  It has always been a case of roll the dice on where the needs of the Air Force sit when your time comes.  Also who your commanders are at that point in time, current command climate, etc. etc.

It has always been a gamble, the odds have just swung back in the other direction.

[Chida]

I did a little research and found the following over the course of my career. Of note, each time it changed per CSAF or SECAF, there it was always heralded as “That’s a great idea!” as if it were something that had never been tried.

?-2004 visible

2005-2008 masked

2008-2014 visible

 

2015-2022 masked

 

2023-? Visible

[SocialD]

Looks like I was pretty close on the masked/unmasked iterations in my career. If the AF truly cared about you having a Masters, they'd send you to a brick and mortar school. At the very least, they'd provide time during the normal work day for you to work on it.  Getting a bullshit masters from Touro online is a waste of everyone's time/money and window dressing at best.  They should work on things that give you more quality time with your family, not less...

[the g-man]

Looks like I was pretty close on the masked/unmasked iterations in my career. If the AF truly cared about you having a Masters, they'd send you to a brick and mortar school. At the very least, they'd provide time during the normal work day for you to work on it.  Getting a bullshit masters from Touro online is a waste of everyone's time/money and window dressing at best.  They should work on things that give you more quality time with your family, not less...

Exactly. I think part of it is that they can see retroactively who has masters and who doesn’t and they are pissed how many o4 selects don’t have it and they slugged through getting a check the box degree to be eligible to go to ACSC in-res just to get ANOTHER check the box degree and they are mad that the rest of us chose more time with family/primary duties than some Liberty University bs


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[brabus]

4 hours ago, Bigred said:

Genuinely curious, do some commanders tell their folks there’s nothing good on the outside? I was on the fence a few times in my career and it wasn’t ever a conversation of not having opportunities on the outside, it was just a discussion of various options and the pluses/minuses of each.

For me, I’ve stayed in because the flying is awesome. Surprisingly they keep promoting me but I’m still in the cockpit almost 20 years later! 

 

I’ve heard a couple talk that way personally, and it seems the higher in rank the official, the more full of shit they are on this line. Many are not telling guys there’s nothing, but rather overselling the AF. The last batch are actually fully transparent about the fuckery and openly admit the pros of outside options. No judgment on staying in, but I have seen a lot of guys stay in because they’re afraid of the unknown and taking the leap of faith. I want guys to stay in for other reasons, not for that. 

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, Chida said:

I did a little research and found the following over the course of my career. Of note, each time it changed per CSAF or SECAF, there it was always heralded as “That’s a great idea!” as if it were something that had never been tried.

?-2004 visible

2005-2008 masked

2008-2014 visible

 

2015-2022 masked

 

2023-? Visible

Damn, i unintentionally timed that perfectly. Got to the almighty BAC+ as a Captain then AAD was masked, so haven’t touched it after making O-4 and O-5. Unmasked but already have the line number so kiss my uneducated ass!

[Pooter]

1 hour ago, the g-man said:

Exactly. I think part of it is that they can see retroactively who has masters and who doesn’t and they are pissed how many o4 selects don’t have it and they slugged through getting a check the box degree to be eligible to go to ACSC in-res just to get ANOTHER check the box degree and they are mad that the rest of us chose more time with family/primary duties than some Liberty University bs

God forbid people spend their time focused on tactical proficiency.
 

It's sad because I joined the Air Force because the patriotism, camaraderie, and mission resonated with me. The longer I stay in the more the Air Force pulls me away from those things.
 

FWIW, this masters policy affects me zero percent. I have a masters, made major last year and have no plans to stick around 1 second past my 10 year adsc. But it's the latest in a litany of tone deaf policies that have nothing to do with winning the war that we look increasingly likely to lose, while also leaving a sour taste in everyone's mouth. 
 

The HAF level leadership has been so bad for the last 5-10 years that if I wasn't an ardent subscriber of Occam's razor, I'd suspect sabotage. 

[Pooter]

13 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Damn, i unintentionally timed that perfectly. Got to the almighty BAC+ as a Captain then AAD was masked, so haven’t touched it after making O-4 and O-5. Unmasked but already have the line number so kiss my uneducated ass!

You know what would be even better timing? Working for a healthy organization that didn't constantly flip flop on decisions and undermine its people. 

[the g-man]

God forbid people spend their time focused on tactical proficiency.
 
It's sad because I joined the Air Force because the patriotism, camaraderie, and mission resonated with me. The longer I stay in the more the Air Force pulls me away from those things.
 
FWIW, this masters policy affects me zero percent. I have a masters, made major last year and have no plans to stick around 1 second past my 10 year adsc. But it's the latest in a litany of tone deaf policies that have nothing to do with winning the war that we look increasingly likely to lose, while also leaving a sour taste in everyone's mouth. 
 
The HAF level leadership has been so bad for the last 5-10 years that if I wasn't an ardent subscriber of Occam's razor, I'd suspect sabotage. 

It also affects me zero as well as I don’t have a masters and made o4 last year too


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[BashiChuni]

get a masters to better your resume and employment opportunities/compensation on the outside

don't get it just to make rank.

[FLEA]

7 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

get a masters to better your resume and employment opportunities/compensation on the outside

don't get it just to make rank.

This right here. A masters will 100% help you on the outside if its in the right field. Know how its going to fit into your game plan. Even a BS online masters can be useful if you want to go to a competitive brick and mortar school lately. It shows that you have a natural inclination to pursue education. But don't get it if you cant articulate how it fits into a bigger plan of professional/academic goals.

[SocialD]

11 hours ago, the g-man said:

Exactly. I think part of it is that they can see retroactively who has masters and who doesn’t and they are pissed how many o4 selects don’t have it and they slugged through getting a check the box degree to be eligible to go to ACSC in-res just to get ANOTHER check the box degree and they are mad that the rest of us chose more time with family/primary duties than some Liberty University bs

 

 

Imagine if they found out that tons of ARC O-5's and O-6's don't have a Master's.  I bet they'd have an aneurysm if they found out we have some O-5's, who don't have a Master's, and didn't do SOS or ACSC.  

Edited December 31, 2022 by SocialD

[Chuck17]

22 hours ago, Pooter said:

What if I told you throwing up our hands and just saying the USAF "is fickle" is precisely the kind of leadership that got us in a huge retention problem in the first place. 
 

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification of the issue. Operations of any large bureaucracy - particularly those that don’t  work for profit - are remarkably similar in their shifting-wind policies and tolerance of ridiculousness, inefficiency, etc.

But again, this shift is no surprise to anyone who’s watched things change over the last 20 years. If you’re caught in the middle, it sucks. Maybe this change is the last change. Maybe the long safe play is to just get one. I dunno. 

I copy on voting with your feet/not taking the bonus/not staying/etc. The USAF hasn’t demonstrated it’s serious about retaining pilots yet IMHO. Having seen the impacts of things like this at both the squadron and the staff levels, I’ll tell you each camp is convinced they’re in the right (that there’s a crisis/that there’s no crisis in retention)… Which contributes to fluctuating policies such as masters degrees… 

18 hours ago, ItnStln said:

How did you get them to pay for four?

I was part of the “gotta have a masters or you won’t get promoted” cohort in the early 2000s. Got the first one via sacrifice of weekends to AMU in 2011. Enjoyed it for the most part but it was a time suck, even for a book nerd like me.

Got sent to IDE and got another (had the opportunity to write about something of high interest, ended up publishing…)

Got picked up for ASG and got another.

Got picked up for SDE and got another. 

…. But what’s one do with four masters degrees? Retire and write? TBD.

I appreciate the opportunity, but can’t argue in good faith that it’s an experience everyone should have. 

Chuck

[tac airlifter]

good post Chuck.

I have 3 MAs on the USAF dollar.  I enjoyed ACSC and the chance to publish more than I expected.  I didn’t realize what a bad writer I was until attending.  The ability to concisely articulate accurate thoughts directly correlates to command success.  
 

There is no Pilot crisis in the AF.  Regardless of appearances at the SQ level, there’s no crisis until the Bobs prioritize & change policy accordingly.  This new emphasis on worthless online masters is a loud and clear message about organizational priorities.

[Sua Sponte]

16 hours ago, Bigred said:

Genuinely curious, do some commanders tell their folks there’s nothing good on the outside? I was on the fence a few times in my career and it wasn’t ever a conversation of not having opportunities on the outside, it was just a discussion of various options and the pluses/minuses of each.

For me, I’ve stayed in because the flying is awesome. Surprisingly they keep promoting me but I’m still in the cockpit almost 20 years later! 

 

Never, ever, take advice on life after the military from someone still wearing a uniform that's on active duty. They don't know anything about it other than the standard "Well, a friend of mine told me..." response. Yes, plenty of commanders I had would scare people into staying in because they took it personally someone wanted to leave to do other things with their life. The felt those types of people were "quitting."

One of the worst Group/CCs I ever had (-130 guy) at Little Rock retired a one-star and would routinely do this to people. A few months after being hired by my company the president sent out the standard fired email for this guy who was a VP..."So-and-So is no longer with this company, we wish him well in his future endeavors." The people who act this way usually severely struggle on the outside because they can't negatively influence people's careers anymore.

[Sua Sponte]

15 hours ago, JBueno said:

Just playing devil’s advocate here.
 

Is it possible that not having a master’s will have zero bearing on promotions for understaffed career fields?
 

That's logical, so as standard of course the USAF will ignore that.

[Sua Sponte]

10 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

get a masters to better your resume and employment opportunities/compensation on the outside

don't get it just to make rank.

That would involve getting a legitimate masters from an actual legitimate school, which most people don't have time to do or aren't willing to do.

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, Sua Sponte said:

Yes, plenty of commanders I had would scare people into staying in because they took it personally someone wanted to leave to do other things with their life. The felt those types of people were "quitting."

had a sq/cc say that to my face 1 month out from terminal leave. "how does it feel to be a quitter"

he wasn't joking.

jokes on him though.

 

how commanders say that to men/women who have given up 12 years of their life is the epitome of tone deaf

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, Sua Sponte said:

That would involve getting a legitimate masters from an actual legitimate school, which most people don't have time to do or aren't willing to do.

100% spot on. that's why only put in the work if you're willing to see how it will benefit you on the outside. bettering your resume at the expense of the US government $$$ is never a negative play unless you think the time sink isn't worth it.

in my case i didn't think the time was worth it. and for me that was the right move.

Edited December 31, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Sua Sponte]

Just now, BashiChuni said:

had a sq/cc say that to my face 1 month out from terminal leave. "how does it feel to be a quitter"

he wasn't joking.

jokes on him though.

 

how commanders say that to men/women who have given up 12 years of their life is the epitome of tone deaf

I recently had someone who acted like this while he was active duty contact me about a referral to my company. I told him that I wouldn't give him a referral and "good luck to his future endeavors." The shock that these types of people have when us DD-214 holders tell them to fuck off is always hilarious.

[StoleIt]

15 hours ago, JBueno said:

Just playing devil’s advocate here.
 

Is it possible that not having a master’s will have zero bearing on promotions for understaffed career fields?
 

Yes, but now that the order you pin on is based on your rack and stack at the board (not saying that's a bad thing BTW), getting ranked last costs you in missed pay and BAH at the higher rank. So, assuming how you price out your time, getting a minimum effort degree that costs no more than the TA reimbursement will eventually pay out several hundred dollars higher a month for the extra 6-9 months you wear the rank.

O-3 -> O-4 and O-4 -> O-5 are roughly a $500 month difference and BAH is (rough average) about $200. So if that moves you to the middle of the pack it's $4200 extra by getting promoted 6 months earlier.

[Sua Sponte]

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

Never, ever, take advice on life after the military from someone still wearing a uniform that's on active duty. They don't know anything about it other than the standard "Well, a friend of mine told me..." response. Yes, plenty of commanders I had would scare people into staying in because they took it personally someone wanted to leave to do other things with their life. The felt those types of people were "quitting."

One of the worst Group/CCs I ever had (-130 guy) at Little Rock retired a one-star and would routinely do this to people. A few months after being hired by my company the president sent out the standard fired email for this guy who was a VP..."So-and-So is no longer with this company, we wish him well in his future endeavors." The people who act this way usually severely struggle on the outside because they can't negatively influence people's careers anymore.

I should be surprised by these stories but unfortunately I’m not. It’s sad folks like that get into command positions. 

[Standby]

5 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

No way in hell I’m giving the USAF my OnlyFans subscriber content for free.

[Biff_T]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:03 AM, Sua Sponte said:

Never, ever, take advice on life after the military from someone still wearing a uniform that's on active duty. They don't know anything about it other than the standard "Well, a friend of mine told me..." response. Yes, plenty of commanders I had would scare people into staying in because they took it personally someone wanted to leave to do other things with their life. The felt those types of people were "quitting."

One of the worst Group/CCs I ever had (-130 guy) at Little Rock retired a one-star and would routinely do this to people. A few months after being hired by my company the president sent out the standard fired email for this guy who was a VP..."So-and-So is no longer with this company, we wish him well in his future endeavors." The people who act this way usually severely struggle on the outside because they can't negatively influence people's careers anymore.

I remember my MX supervisor telling me that he'll be waiting for me when I fail out of Boom training.  This was a few days before I left for training.  It was said when we were alone (no, he didn't touch me) and he was dead serious.  15 years later, I flew through Hill, flying my Huey as a pilot.  I didn't see him waiting.

As a pilot, leadership at the squadron was upset when I wanted to be a pilot first.  Being a prior sweaty, I could easily make it to retirement without doing queep.   I flew my best but didn't do extra things.   I wrote awards for my airmen, I helped several of my dudes with their OTS packages (a few are USAF pilots now) and took care of them as best I could. However, I didn't take care of myself.  I refused to write awards for myself and I really thought I'd get that easy promotion to O-4.  The other thing I did was play my cards too early.  Don't let leadership know your intentions.  I was passed over for the first time, when I was the Chief of Stan/Eval.  In my 17th year on AD, I volunteered for a 365 in hopes that I could stay at my last duty station so my son could graduate high school at the same place that he started.  I was denied because I had previous deployments and they had a volunteer who needed a deployment for experience.  I was at 18 years when they said no to the high school senior deferment program.   They realized that I was passed over and would be forced to retire at 20 and they still PCSd me.  My family stayed in place for my son, who went to 8 different schools, could graduate with his friends.  When I PCSd for the last time, I went as geographically separated bachelor.  As a passed over O-3E, I got to fly as much as I wanted (😃).  I took as many TDYs as I could.  On one such TDY, my commander told me I was on the shortlist for a 365.  Later that night,when I was pounding a few brews, I mentioned it to some of of the other pilots and two of them essentially fought to take my non-vol.   The same non-vol that I volunteered for a year earlier.  Two months after I retired (forced out for failure to promote), I received a letter from my CC informing me that I had finally made Major.  He wrote, "Sorry Biff, too little too late".  

I never failed a checkride as a pilot (hooked my first MSN check as a boom).  I never got a dui or into any trouble 😉 that required paperwork.  I took care of my people as a NCO and as a CGO.    My last supervisor was a Lt in my flight a few years prior.   

When I got out,  I got my ATP and flew for Compass  (God rest her soul).  After Compass, I decided I had enough of being gone and elected to work very little and enjoy my time with my family.  

In the end, don't trust leadership to look after you if you don't play along.  Also, you'll definitely enjoy life if you decide to get out.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by Biff_T
Words are hard