Promotion and PRF Information

[ViperStud]

Frog, the argument wasn't that having flyers command some support function would reduce queep for that person; it's the flyer in such a position would add needed perspective to what they're actually supporting. Quick personal example - two weeks to go to PCS with no orders, TMO/training couldn't do anything without them, etc. Guess who still punched out at 1630 every day even though the flight CC said they were behind?  That's right - the FSS. The same dudes that think we show up just to fly and work a 4 hour day. Leaving at 1630 with work piled up is a no-go in ops; it should be the same in the MSG. 

Flyers leading some of those functions as majors (the same rank of their current CCs) would lend some perspective and give those dudes valuable leadership experience before being a flying CC. Many MSG people have several command tours; we could eliminate the multiple tours AND get flyers valuable leadership experience. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by ViperStud

[matmacwc]

2 hours ago, Bender said:

I get the impression that "being good in the jet" is just an assumption. You should just do that, and the difference is how much more you can handle. How much time does that really command?

I'm sure it's based on airframe...how much time does that take for an F-22? An A-10? What about a C-130J?

How "good" is good enough? Is there a limit? If I just let a guy have time to do nothing but, would s/he excel? Or would they just go home to the wife/hooker? I find it hard to believe people aren't "good in the jet" based off anything other than their personal lack of give a fvck.

 

In my experience certain people have different learning curves, no matter how equal the snowflakes want to make us.  If you fly your MF ass off for the first 4-6 years in your given MWS and pick things up fairly quickly, your probably set for life given 5-7 flights a month and time to attend squadron academics and self study.  I have seen 40 year olds that couldn't start the jet correctly, so giving a frag does mean something.  I also think there are a lot of people who think they are "good in the jet" and they are dismal failures, I am not one of them, I am good. (or was, story for a future post) 

On a side note, CE does some good stuff, but I have to harken back to a world famous Flying Fiends Show of Colors tradition of statements in a "What if" format.  

"What if"  support did.

[Duck]

Why would I want any pilot to be put in charge of any support function? I told a previous CC he sucked ass dealing with the E's. His valid excuse was never being around enlisted. This is a dumb ass concept to think you can do better at another officers job just because you are a pilot. Get over yourselves.
People who think they can do any officers job in the AF and be 100% effective is WRONG. I never needed a SNCO to tell me what to do as an officer. As a prior, I know what an enlisted airman needs. It's hard to lead someone if you never walked a mile in their shoes.
I'm that guy that told the shirt no you are not taking "A1C Need for Speed" driving privileges away on base because he got a ticket off base. Then he got another ticket on base for a stop sign or something. The kid was about to deploy and I told the shirt that's a dumb ass punishment. I went old school on the A1C and needless to say, the problem was resolved. I don't need a SNCO telling me how to handle the enlisted. If you need a seeing eye dog as an officer, you shouldn't be a CC or put in charge of E's period. 
Some of you think airmen should spend a day in ops. Airmen should never have to spend a day learning about ops or supporting it. They selected the jobs they have for a reason. I give 2 craps about how you fuel your plane. I chose intel to be indoors so I don't have to be on a hot ass aircraft parking spot pumping fuel.  My focus should be on our adversaries. Don't piss in my Cheerios and I won't piss in your Wheaties.

Every time you post I read it in a yelling voice and for a guy whose name is "hatedont" (what does that even mean anyway) you sure do have a lot of emo teenager angst.

I haven't read anywhere in this thread that pilots are "better" or can do the job better than the non-rated officers across the base. I do think the AF has a lot of bloat and the Support side of the house doesn't really do a hell of a lot to support me or the actual no $hit mission. (Although I enjoyed Pacific Indian Asian Heritage month, wait, no I didn't because I was too busy flying)

I actually think most of our pilots make $hitty Commanders and not for lack of trying. We really don't do a good job developing them like other services do. By the time a Soldier is a Battalion Commander, how many other Commands have they had where they are actually leading people (Officers/Enlisted)? Probably a minimum of two, one being as a Lt and once more as a Captain.

The bottom line is it doesn't make sense to pay a dude $100k a year to be an O-4 Sq/CC just so they can stand up in the Wing staff meeting and say "nothing to report, Sir!"

We need to develop better and more experienced Commanders and that starts at the O-1 level. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many of these dip$hit O-5/6/7s who end up getting plastered on JQP or who singlehandedly drive down retention in their Squadron.




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[matmacwc]

I'm starting to see arguments for a separate service, the "Air Force" and the "We support the Air Force".  You could call it the SWAF, or SAF.  And inside the "Air Force" we could have the MAF, CAF and.......oh wait we have that already.

[HU&W]

3 hours ago, hatedont said:

Airmen should never have to spend a day learning about ops or supporting it.

I chose intel to be indoors

So, what would you say intel does, other than being the supported unit for CE HVAC?

[FourFans]

Life ain't fair.  Any arguments based on "fairness" are invalid.

It's the Air Force.  Walk into any organization (that's not the AF) and you will find people in charge at every level who have an intimate understanding of what the organization's primary function, mission, and purpose are.  (Does the CEO of Ford understand cars?)  Pilots see parts of all the support, decision makes, and execution functions of the USAF simply by the merit of their job.  Pilots can and should lead the Air Force at all levels.

Competition selects quality.  Simply by going through the selection process of pilot training, higher quality raw material is selected.  Ever hear about the guy that washed out of finance tech school and used UPT as his backup?  Not a knock on personal value, but not everyone has what it takes to do certain jobs.  That doesn't mean that all pilots are good leaders or even good people.  It simply means that pilots come from a pool that is stress-inoculated, studious, and highly adaptable.  Those are known qualities that can contribute to the growth of a good leader.  But that person has to be properly mentored.  Properly taught humility.  Properly taught how to lead by example.  Properly given the chance to failure in an environment where mistakes can be made and learned from.  (for another post, but this is exactly why the service academies exist)

A generation ago, they understood the value of doing difficult things for the positive impact it a makes on one's character.  A smart man once pointed out that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.  Instead of a society pursuing character and hope, we now live in an instant-gratification-every-thought-and-emotion-I-have-deserves-an-audience-and-it's-your-fault-my-life-is-so-unfair society.  The Air Force is simply reflecting that.  Promoting self-servers and a lack of mission focus are just a couple symptoms of that fact.

I argue that the collapse in the Air Force is due to moral decay.  You can't swing a dead cat these days without hitting an O-6 convicted of sexual harassment or conduct unbecoming.  With moral fiber like that, is there any doubt why the AF is failing?

No amount of promotion process fixes can correct a lack of moral conscience.  Until individuals start holding themselves to a higher standard, learning what sacrificial servant leadership is about, and learning how to pursue character, we will continue to see the fallout of moral collapse.

FF

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by FourFans130

[FlyinGrunt]

OK, mea culpa 1: I drank a lotta beer today, so this thread is getting TL;DR.

1.  Promote by AFSC ain't hard.  Let's say you have a YG of 2000 officers.  You need 1200 pilots.  Promote them.  You need 600 CSOs of various kinds.  Promote them.  You need 200 MX officers.  Etc etc.  Split the boards and don't suck.

2.  As a former RA, yes, with 2-6 weeks of training, I could do the comptroller's job withe sufficient motivation.  Anyone with experience in that area should understand that the motivation is inherent bc jail.

3.  I don't give 2 fvcks about the cost for any support AFSC's costs to retrain.  Run them all out, if that's what it takes; I sincerely believe I can find and inspire a rated officer to learn the job and kick @ss, given sufficient resources.

4.  As said before, with no pilots, there is no spear, just a shaft.  The kind presently given to our 4th point of contact, repeatedly.

5.  The world needs ditch-diggers too - aka the entire MSG.  But if I have to choose, I'll choose the OG and MXG every time and outsource the rest.

[Skitzo]

Mods, recc move a lot of this stuff over to "what's wrong with the af" thread.


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[hatedont]

5 hours ago, HU&W said:

So, what would you say intel does, other than being the supported unit for CE HVAC?

Not sure what you fly but people here easily forget the four mission sets of the AF. Airlift/Bombing, Nukes, Space & Missiles, and Cyber (I guess).

Getting to your question. There was one AFSC in intel that dealt with some cool stuff despite the title being SIGINT analyst. Not everyone's job title is what you think it solely deals with. Pilots have different AFSCs just like intel does. You wouldn't expect a bomber pilot to know how to do an air drop over a DZ. Just like a SIGINT analyst cant do imagery, which is another AFSC in intel.

A vast majority of flyers have no clue who in the AF deals with nukes. Its goes deeper than an officer sitting in a silo or a bomber pilot who delivers the weapons. There is more to that mission set than what a lot of you could imagine. How many flyers are well versed on nukes who fall under AMC? 

My point is you should know what you bring to the AF. If you think intel should learn what you do, then you could probably spend a day learning about how the nuclear arsenal works. It goes both ways. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[hatedont]

4 hours ago, Duck said:

Every time you post I read it in a yelling voice and for a guy whose name is "hatedont" (what does that even mean anyway) you sure do have a lot of emo teenager angst.

I haven't read anywhere in this thread that pilots are "better" or can do the job better than the non-rated officers across the base. I do think the AF has a lot of bloat and the Support side of the house doesn't really do a hell of a lot to support me or the actual no $hit mission. (Although I enjoyed Pacific Indian Asian Heritage month, wait, no I didn't because I was too busy flying)

I actually think most of our pilots make $hitty Commanders and not for lack of trying. We really don't do a good job developing them like other services do. By the time a Soldier is a Battalion Commander, how many other Commands have they had where they are actually leading people (Officers/Enlisted)? Probably a minimum of two, one being as a Lt and once more as a Captain.

The bottom line is it doesn't make sense to pay a dude $100k a year to be an O-4 Sq/CC just so they can stand up in the Wing staff meeting and say "nothing to report, Sir!"

We need to develop better and more experienced Commanders and that starts at the O-1 level. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many of these dip$hit O-5/6/7s who end up getting plastered on JQP or who singlehandedly drive down retention in their Squadron.




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Nail on the head. You get the bigger issue that I'm seeing. I totally agree with you.

There is a dude I know who is a shiny penny. I watched as he put himself up for countless awards. I know that's how you highlight yourself as an officer if you want to be a GO someday. Anyway, he created a position for Lts to sit next to the Ops Sup and answer phones. I don't know how the hell that got approved! Ultimately, the position was killed off. I was at SOS when his idea came to fruition. Otherwise, I would have said hell no.

Based on that scenario, you wonder how some leaders become so out of touch with the rest of us. They were always out of touch, its just nobody ever tells another officer thats a dumb idea and you're doing it all wrong.

The officer in question probably still thinks his idea was great! It was just another bullet on his many award packages. How do you win Flt/CC of the year when your OPRs are late and your airmen fail their PT tests? Document that on a 1206....

[hatedont]

7 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

I'm throwing the bullshit flag; first, because your points are contradictory, and secondly because they're incoherent.  If you think pilots aren't good leaders because they aren't around enlisted people, you should be 100% for putting them there.  It's not going to get any better unless you expose them to it sts earlier on so they can figure it out.

And this has already been mentioned, but what specially qualified a finance officer to lead his section?  A 4 week tech school? No, being put in charge of the people and finding a good SNCO to mentor him, which takes time.  Which is, again, why we probably ought to put fliers in that position sts as well if we expect them to ever grow in the same manner.

 

Lastly, people in support functions should absoinglutely be exposed to what it is they support and where it fits sts in the big picture.  Half the problems we have getting comm to respond, for example, might be resolved more quickly if they understood what a screeching halt our squadron grinds to when our mission planning system is tits up.  Well, that and the base comm to have the appropriate authorities etc, but I digress.  It is the same concept as this: when a young flier makes a stupid decision in the grand scheme of an LFE because he was only thinking about his jet and not the whole strike package, we debrief him on it and then teach the larger group the lesson learned so hopefully the other LTs don't make the same mistake. 

This is the equivalency of you living in a great middle class neighborhood. However, I live in a drug infested trailer park. Then you trying to tell me you totally understand what I go through. No you don't understand. You cannot relate to me at all. You will be a more effective leader with the enlisted if you can actually relate to them in general. Leading isn't about barking orders. You need compassion and have to be able to understand the enlisted you are trying to lead.

Comm doesn't need to come over to ops. Why don't you go over to the comm building and establish a relationship with their airmen, NCOs, or SNCOs. Try talking to them like human beings and it might get you somewhere. The ops vs support mentality is growing tired and old. Are CCs actually talking to each other to resolve these issues? It starts at the top and some issues might get fixed if people tried it.

When my Lt was trying to get CFPS and other software installed, it sounded like he was being a dick to comm. I should have asked him did he try hooking comm up by using backdoor AF policy of handing out booze. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[hatedont]

8 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Frog, the argument wasn't that having flyers command some support function would reduce queep for that person; it's the flyer in such a position would add needed perspective to what they're actually supporting. Quick personal example - two weeks to go to PCS with no orders, TMO/training couldn't do anything without them, etc. Guess who still punched out at 1630 every day even though the flight CC said they were behind?  That's right - the FSS. The same dudes that think we show up just to fly and work a 4 hour day. Leaving at 1630 with work piled up is a no-go in ops; it should be the same in the MSG. 

Flyers leading some of those functions as majors (the same rank of their current CCs) would lend some perspective and give those dudes valuable leadership experience before being a flying CC. Many MSG people have several command tours; we could eliminate the multiple tours AND get flyers valuable leadership experience. 

Its not that black and white. There are two hour waits at the pharmacy because a civilian walked off the job. Waits at the clinic on getting referrals off base due to manning. Just like the pilot retention issue, lots of AFSCs at bases are not adequately manned. Sequestration wasn't that long ago in my mind and we are still feeling it. If we don't have the manning for something, I'm not going to kill my airmen by making them work until 8 pm. If I was a support CC, I would be that guy to take care of my  airmen. Is someone going to die because you receive your TMO orders late? Or do I need to take away their morning PT and have half the squadron fail the test? 

There is a huge disconnect between how you view the AF and how I view things. Some enlisted can't work late as single parents because they have to pick there kids up at the CDC after work. I don't know if you are married and have kids, but if you don't then that's why you can't relate. I am not married and I don't have any kids just to put that into perspective for you. A lot of enlisted members attend classes directly after work. You want to tell the education office your 3 airmen failed classes because you made them work late everyday. The AF pays for those classes. 

On this forum we have all talked about being stretched far too thin with personnel. You are seeing what happens on the support side when they are not adequately manned. If you don't have enough pilots, you can't pull them out of your ass. You have to cut back on the mission until manning permits otherwise. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[Ram]

Jeebus Christ what a douchey post, hatedont. Seriously, are you trying to troll?

While you clear your airmen off at 1630 so they can line up at the CDC and take their night classes, some 20 year old crew chief is on his 12th hour of work...for the 6th consecutive day...before he takes one day off and repeats that week again, and again, and again. That's why the MXG has a special word for the off-flightline folks.

And yes, someone might actually die if your troops don't do their job on time. The 50 hour wingman next to me needs his time in the books to manage his weapon system and come home alive...not just in wartime, but every damn day. Time is a finite resource, and our pilots don't have time to do your job because you won't do it yourself. An hour wasted for TMO bullshit is an hour that LT might have needed in the sim/vault/jet/etc.

FVCKUPS LIKE YOU DESCRIBE (AND CONDONE, YGBSM) ARE WHY WE ARE HEMMORHAGING COMBAT CAPABILITY.


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[hatedont]

1 hour ago, Ram said:

Jeebus Christ what a douchey post, hatedont. Seriously, are you trying to troll?

While you clear your airmen off at 1630 so they can line up at the CDC and take their night classes, some 20 year old crew chief is on his 12th hour of work...for the 6th consecutive day...before he takes one day off and repeats that week again, and again, and again. That's why the MXG has a special word for the off-flightline folks.

And yes, someone might actually die if your troops don't do their job on time. The 50 hour wingman next to me needs his time in the books to manage his weapon system and come home alive...not just in wartime, but every damn day. Time is a finite resource, and our pilots don't have time to do your job because you won't do it yourself. An hour wasted for TMO bullshit is an hour that LT might have needed in the sim/vault/jet/etc.

FVCKUPS LIKE YOU DESCRIBE (AND CONDONE, YGBSM) ARE WHY WE ARE HEMMORHAGING COMBAT CAPABILITY.


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Nobody has died from not receiving a set of TMO orders on time. You might want to read that post again. When you can tie a Lts death into TMO orders you are looking at the AF through a soda straw. 

There is a huge shortage of personnel in maintenance. Guess what? They would rather get out to go to school full time instead of staying in the AF. Not having the right amount of people to fix jets is far more dangerous than anything. You can't have an enlisted force and not educate them. The more enlisted we have in maintenance permits more of them to go to school and become better maintainers. Taking college classes is a part of being promoted outside of WAPs and CDC testing. You think maintainers are going to stay in knowing they can't even get their CCAF? I guess you don't care about them taking care of themselves or your jet with your mindset. Its far more dangerous to  that Lt to have a shortage of maintainers who have a piss poor attitude and low morale because they can't go to school at ALL and are being over worked.

Maintainers and pilots are leaving because QOL is so great (sarcasm). Last time I checked, we have a shortage of pilots and maintainers due to QOL. That impacts combat capability, not sending someone to college classes after work.

How could you ever say allowing people to go to school impacts the mission in a negative way?

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[Goblin]

Hatedont is Chang? Chang is Hatedont?

[SurelySerious]

This is the equivalency of you living in a great middle class neighborhood. However, I live in a drug infested trailer park. Then you trying to tell me you totally understand what I go through. No you don't understand. You cannot relate to me at all. You will be a more effective leader with the enlisted if you can actually relate to them in general. Leading isn't about barking orders. You need compassion and have to be able to understand the enlisted you are trying to lead.
Comm doesn't need to come over to ops. Why don't you go over to the comm building and establish a relationship with their airmen, NCOs, or SNCOs. Try talking to them like human beings and it might get you somewhere. The ops vs support mentality is growing tired and old. Are CCs actually talking to each other to resolve these issues? It starts at the top and some issues might get fixed if people tried it.
When my Lt was trying to get CFPS and other software installed, it sounded like he was being a dick to comm. I should have asked him did he try hooking comm up by using backdoor AF policy of handing out booze. 

So what you're saying is you didn't read, nor have you learned to construct an argument with supporting facts. However I think you're saying that:
-only enlisted could ever lead enlisted
-every career field should be insular

Sounds like a recipe for success.

[FourFans]

Tyler, scoobs, Chang, and hatedont just might be related.

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, hatedont said:

Is someone going to die because you receive your TMO orders late? Or do I need to take away their morning PT and have half the squadron fail the test? 

There is a huge disconnect between how you view the AF and how I view things.

Yes, a huge disconnect. Nice straw man argument, numbnuts. What are TMO orders, are you even in the AF?  

I don't expect someone to keep people so late everyday that they can't get their kids. There are a plethora of ways to chip away at that work though: stay an hour late 1 or two days, have working lunch (like most of us do), cancel/consolidate "training" hours used as fluff.  I even really like your suggestion - cnx PT in favor of that little thing called the MISSION; if that causes half the sq to fail the test then holy shit there are bigger problems with that group of individuals. 

Lots of people in Ops are single parents; unfortunately we have a lot of divorces.  We have the same life issues everyone does. Yeah, I worked 12-hr days as a single punk. I'm not advocating that for everyone; far from it. That being said, treating 1630 as a sacred departure time without consideration of mission accomplishment, that's how you breed a group of non-supporters. There's a happy medium between what we have and your fairyland where everyone fails PT tests and loses their kids if someone has to work a little harder. 

[hatedont]

1 minute ago, SurelySerious said:

So what you're saying is you didn't read, nor have you learned to construct an argument with supporting facts. However I think you're saying that:
-only enlisted could ever lead enlisted
-every career field should be insular

Sounds like a recipe for success.

You know which officers have some of the best rapport with E's are the U-2 guys. E's would do anything for those guys. Those guys are like come out and I will give you a mobile ride A1C Bilbo. Showing a little love goes a long way. 

Never said enlisted should lead enlisted. 

[FourFans]

Back on the topic of PRFs and promotions - heads up to all the MAF officers here: There is anew  Facebook group called "MAF Assignments and Mentoring" which is run by the flyers at AFPC MAF officer assignments.  They're taking direct feedback as well as posting data and stats as soon as it's available.

[hatedont]

10 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Yes, a huge disconnect. Nice straw man argument, numbnuts. What are TMO orders, are you even in the AF?  

I don't expect someone to keep people so late everyday that they can't get their kids. There are a plethora of ways to chip away at that work though: stay an hour late 1 or two days, have working lunch (like most of us do), cancel/consolidate "training" hours used as fluff.  I even really like your suggestion - cnx PT in favor of that little thing called the MISSION; if that causes half the sq to fail the test then holy shit there are bigger problems with that group of individuals. 

Lots of people in Ops are single parents; unfortunately we have a lot of divorces.  We have the same life issues everyone does. Yeah, I worked 12-hr days as a single punk. I'm not advocating that for everyone; far from it. That being said, treating 1630 as a sacred departure time without consideration of mission accomplishment, that's how you breed a group of non-supporters. There's a happy medium between what we have and your fairyland where everyone fails PT tests and loses their kids if someone has to work a little harder. 

You must turn orders into the TMO to have your HHG shipped. "I said TMO orders."

You don't need to resort to name calling when I counter your illogical point

The disconnect is real on your part. Airmen who live on base have to eat in the chow hall.

Working lunch? You can have a working lunch if you are going to pay for everyone's food to work through lunch. The shirt is going to say something to you if you think you can make airmen stay for a working lunch. Even if you buy food, they could say they don't want your food. Everyone knows this already. You are asking to be chiefed Viperstud.

Not trying to be a dick. Have you gone to SOS? 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[brabus]

 That impacts combat capability, not sending someone to college classes after work.

Since you seem fairly hung up on education, let me educate you: pilots who decided to get their masters (a hard requirement for Major over most of my last 11 years) did so at night after their 12-14 hr work day that didn't include a single minute for a lunch break and most likely zero gym time. They also took their weekend time to complete, around likely going to work on the weekend for at least a few hours. 

See the difference? I'm all for an MSG airman working on furthering their education, but their primary job comes first and it is not acceptable to leave piles of work on the desk and bolt at the 8 hr point, leaving supported people hanging, often in shitty positions. Support function failure, even delayed orders and fucked up travel vouchers, may not lose a war, but they directly, negatively effect combat capability.

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, Bender said:

What needs to define a "technical track", if getting passed over for O-5 and continued indefinitely isn't it?

If the ACIP went up to 10k a month...I think we might find some valid competition with the airlines.

How does the Air Force compete with an organization that will pay you twice as much for less than half the work, while dropping out 95% of the shitty parts?

How are rated promotion rates and retention even connected?

If you were punching as an O-4, who would change their mind based on a promotion to O-5?

Bendy


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Having watched passed over majors get RIF'd just a few years ago, I would certainly prefer to have a defined path to retirement instead of "well, we're short on people for now, so you can continue...oh, looks like we're over manned, get out.  Too bad you served 17 years, but no retirement for you".

[hatedont]

12 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

 

Since you seem fairly hung up on education, let me educate you: pilots who decided to get their masters (a hard requirement for Major over most of my last 11 years) did so at night after their 12-14 hr work day that didn't include a single minute for a lunch break and most likely zero gym time. They also took their weekend time to complete, around likely going to work on the weekend for at least a few hours. 

See the difference? I'm all for an MSG airman working on furthering their education, but their primary job comes first and it is not acceptable to leave piles of work on the desk and bolt at the 8 hr point, leaving supported people hanging, often in shitty positions. Support function failure, even delayed orders and ed up travel vouchers, may not lose a war, but they directly, negatively effect combat capability.

I'm not hung up on education. But a lot of people enlist for the education benefits.

I'm asking you gentlemen to take into account their manning. When an airmen apologizes for not having something done due to their manning, what can I say? You're a douchebag of an airman? It's called having compassion. Lots of AFSCs are short on manning. 

Not every leader in the AF thinks like a Type A pilot. Lord knows civilian thinking drives me nuts. Off point topic. I asked my property manager for a snow removal plan. I got crickets. While I was deployed  during the winter, the property manager sent out an email because people were lighting her on fire because they couldn't get out of their driveways in my townhome complex and the apartment parking lot wasn't plowed. I was like I tried to tell her months in advance, but thats civilian thinking for you man.

If you don't let any E's go to school. Watch retention plummet across every AFSC.

You are comparing officers to enlisted. Kids fresh out of high school compared to someone who has already completed a 4 year degree. They have different mindsets, especially those who are pilots. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by hatedont

[ViperStud]

Just now, hatedont said:

Not trying to be a dick. Have you gone to SOS? 

Wow, I'm speechless. Your straw man argument is still intact.

Focus on one point, find out a flaw in it and act like I'm not right at all.  Throw in a shoe flag reference for good measure. My point remains that there are many ways to get more actual work done in many functional areas and it requires putting mission accomplishment first. I'm not claiming that ops is the most efficient with our time, but having the "goal" set as getting shit done (rather than hitting a specific time) is a HUGE first step. Putting a flyer in charge would change some aspects, like instilling a focus on getting shit done, rather quickly  

Ok I'm done feeding the troll now, guys. My bad. I'll sit back and watch New Scoobs rant now.