Promotion and PRF Information

[Champ Kind]

It amazes me how many people say they are willing to die for their country or be separated from their family for most of their career for their job but are absolutely unwilling to take classes and write papers. Whiney ass bitches who will be replaced when they quit or allowed to continue at their current rank with pay increases every two years.

You sound a lot like a certain 3-star in upper mgmt at AMC that is soon-to-retire.

[Herk Driver]

Gents,

There are lots of points that can be discussed here...I would just caution you on linking cause and effect on many of the things that you have discussed here. Sometimes appearances can be deceiving.

I have seen the PRF with the guy that had all the boxes checked and he did not receive a DP based on "strength of record" or lack of it. I have also seen the guy that did not have all the boxes checked but had a strong record otherwise and he got a DP.

I am sure there are places where Q-3's are withheld for the favored guy, as a matter of fact, I have witnessed it. I fought against it and lost. However, I have also been at places where a Q-3 was a Q-3 and it didn't matter who the person was. The major criteria used was the flying violation and whether a Form 8 was the appropriate vehicle to document the issue. As an aside and to avoid this becoming a topic, I am not a proponent of the Q-3 in all situations, but they do have their place.

Without calling anyone out, I have also watched several people volunteer to deploy at minimal dwell times and then not have time to complete their AAD. In ONE case (a case I am familiar with, so only an anecdotal story) this guy used the deployment as an excuse to not complete his AAD. As far as I know, he received a P. However, I can confirm that he was passed over. IMHO, the right decision was made.

My point is that the system does work sometimes. There are always going to be situations where you believe your buddy got screwed over, etc, but I would caution you that you may not have all the information. You probably have just the information that your buddy wants you to have and not much/any of the deragatory information. Continue to rage against the up or out system and push for change. Just don't be surprised when the system that you signed up for continues to move down the road while you are left standing on the side of it.

PME and an AAD are not very difficult to get accomplished...would I like to see the AAD masked for promotion to O-4? Yes. However, the idea that everyone deserves to make Major or is capable of leading multiple teams is not accurate.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Herk Driver

[Vprdrvr69]

The unfortunate result of a rated CGO today is that guys that know the mission and know how to run crews are left behind for guys who can barely manage/lead a crew because of PME/AAD. I am not saying this is the case all the time because I think the system works half of the time and good people are getting pushed. However, the system should be better at getting it right (or wrong) half the time.

PME taught and showed me first hand how many military officers we have in the service that are quite frankly a damn embarrassment! We have far too many box checking shoe clerks (or bag wearers) that can't lead a fly to shit and lack everything in the confidence department. Being able to instill confidence in your team and run a crew to execute missions are what we do, regardless of AFSC or MWS. While half of the events at SOS are about as gay as two men fukkin, they do provide the ammo to watch limp dick box checkers fail because they cannot execute! I guess I did learn something during PME...

[Champ Kind]

In ONE case (a case I am familiar with, so only an anecdotal story) this guy used the deployment as an excuse to not complete his AAD. As far as I know, he received a P. However, I can confirm that he was passed over. IMHO, the right decision was made.

Are you referring to someone off this last O-4 board? I know someone that sounds exactly like what you described. (No, is not me.)

My point is that the system does work sometimes. There are always going to be situations where you believe your buddy got screwed over.

My focus is in the other direction. What about the guys that are picked out of the litter to be shiney toys on the basis of strats, SOS DG, or being a graduate of a particular school/program, and then, as it turns out, they can't lead their way out of a wet paper bag? In fact, their personality is actually an infection to morale in their unit as a result. There are multiple examples of that in our AF and a clear indicator that our system doesn't always get it right.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Champ Kind

[sqwatch]

Is there not a way to find some middle ground regarding this topic?

Exactly

PME taught and showed me first hand how many military officers we have in the service that are quite frankly a damn embarrassment! words... everyone sucks but me

Copy. SOS taught you how awesome you are.

to watch limp dick box checkers

Interesting way to kill time while at SOS

Here's an alternate perspective on SOS. I appreciated 8 weeks away from a tough ops tempo. I enjoyed meeting folks outside my MWS, and made some friends I still keep in touch with. I thought the effort the USAF put forth to spend the money, pull me out of the mission, and have PhDs with different perspectives lecture showed how important leadership considers education, even if this is the last time 90% of officers will see in-res education. There were some folks who struggled with SOS. Some folks took FLEX and the other "competitive" activities way too seriously, started barking orders, and lost the support of their team, which served as another learning opportunity for everyone around them and provided examples of how not to lead. There were some portions of SOS that I thought were boring, or geared toward the lowest common denominator, but some of my peers learned from those events.

I also learned some things at SOS. I learned there are a lot of good folks in my peer group, there are also some containercheckers because checking containers is what they have to do when they struggle at leading, and there are some folks who will take the first opportunity to dwell on something that can be improved, and rather than fix it, scream "see, the whole system is f*cked, I'm done".

[Vprdrvr69]

Trogdor, oh I'm part of the "problem." I've written/signed hundreds of PRFs and read and graded thousands. I agree with much of what you say. I would fire a commander who upgraded guys not ready due to SOS. It is not a common practice everywhere but it is obviously a problem in many places. Standards should be the same regardless of your ranking. It blows that what you describe happens. I slap (really just mentor with direct talk and profanity) the stupid ass star QB for being stubborn and blowing his leadership abilities and proven performance by refusing to do PME or AAD, effectively self eliminating. It amazes me how many people say they are willing to die for their country or be separated from their family for most of their career for their job but are absolutely unwilling to take classes and write papers. Whiney ass bitches who will be replaced when they quit or allowed to continue at their current rank with pay increases every two years. It seriously doesn't take that much time. Blog less, sleep less or watch tv less. You are naive to think you can't be a run a good crew, be a good leader and get your shit done. Stop exaggerating how painful, distaste-less and immoral taking Coaching 101 is. It is a requisite for coaching whether you like it or not.

In the name of good AF critiquing, I'll start by saying something positive. I agree with a lot of the points that you make. First hand, I have seen far too many "continued" parasites that really were bottom feeders and are just nursing off of the gov teet. While some dudes are the grey beards that provide the backbone to squadrons, others really are parasitic. Much of what you say about the promotion system is painfully valid, but like someone else stated, we like to sit on this forum and bitch a lot about things that are so vividly and cosmically screwed up in our service (as an extension of politics I suppose it only makes sense). While I agree with much of your assessment regarding many (but not all)of those that get passed over, it is your stance on those top choice selects that I argue.

You start your posts by laying out your virtual pecker in an online dick measuring contest, whilst you have not confronted any other challenge asking you for credentials of some degree. You could be the college kid from the other forum trying to "pull rank" and bitch slap everyone on this forum that made you feel so small. I give credit and respect where it is due, and a random internet blog post doesn't make anyone an O-6 or above. Bullshit guidance composed in grammatically challenged posts makes me question the validity of your persona. Just saying...

The best argument folks have made to your guidance and judgment is that immediate peers and supervisors are the best measure we have in regards to the value an aviator presents to the unit. If he or she can hack the mission, fly the MWS, mentor youngsters, run his shop, and save or take lives in combat, then I can almost guarantee you that person is also an Instructor or Evaluator. That decision is made by people that understand the value or lack of that the person offers to the unit. That fukking box alone to a rated aviator is paramount and should hands down trump any bullshit online PME or AAD. IP or EP should be the first and a required box before even looking at the others. When it is time to take lead and focus less on just tactical aspects, the PME and AAD MUST be relevant to the further development of that leader. Our priorities from the last Majors board seem to be much more in-line with my (and many here on Bops) thinking. For once in a long time, something became slightly less fukked up and credit is due. Since you have graded thousands of PRFs, your type of thinking is likely the kind of shit we have dealt with since circa 2007 that is a poison to the future of our AF.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Vprdrvr69

[Vprdrvr69]

Exactly

Copy. SOS taught you how awesome you are.

Interesting way to kill time while at SOS

Here's an alternate perspective on SOS. I appreciated 8 weeks away from a tough ops tempo. I enjoyed meeting folks outside my MWS, and made some friends I still keep in touch with. I thought the effort the USAF put forth to spend the money, pull me out of the mission, and have PhDs with different perspectives lecture showed how important leadership considers education, even if this is the last time 90% of officers will see in-res education. There were some folks who struggled with SOS. Some folks took FLEX and the other "competitive" activities way too seriously, started barking orders, and lost the support of their team, which served as another learning opportunity for everyone around them and provided examples of how not to lead. There were some portions of SOS that I thought were boring, or geared toward the lowest common denominator, but some of my peers learned from those events.

I also learned some things at SOS. I learned there are a lot of good folks in my peer group, there are also some containercheckers because checking containers is what they have to do when they struggle at leading, and there are some folks who will take the first opportunity to dwell on something that can be improved, and rather than fix it, scream "see, the whole system is f*cked, I'm done".

Pretty sure I didn't brag about myself at all. I also quoted what you said, without completely taking everything out of context. I was piggy backing on comments already made which you apparently were not following. Your last paragraph is spot on! I didn't talk about my overall experience at SOS. As a matter of fact, I absolutely enjoyed it and the friends that I made as well. My focus wasn't about trying to better someone else or get my hands on the DG award. Drinking beer and learning from my flight was 99% of the value gained from that place. Most everything else was FOD. My points are still valid and if you are being honest here, you probably agree to one extent or another. For Christ sake, how many people there can't even pass the freaking USAF PT test? There is a reason they require you take one on the first day...because too many people can't even meet those minimums! I'm not one of these 100 mile running PT machines, but do you also think it is fine that a military officer can't pass a PT test? One of the biggest discriminators between the flight rankings was how many people in a flight struggled to run the 1.5 miles or achieve a passing PT test score! Really...

[Herk Driver]

Are you referring to someone off this last O-4 board? I know someone that sounds exactly like what you described. (No, is not me.)

Check your PM.

[F16Deuce]

What boggles my mind about the promotion systems is that it doesn't take an individual's AFSC into account. What I mean is there seems to be a bunch of shoe AFSCs that are overmanned yet continue promoting people, while many MDSs are undermanned (in part due to people voting with their feet) and are having people passed over. It seems as though the system is content with the appearance of being "fair and equitable," as the Kool-Aid video at SOS described it, rather than the actual needs of the USAF. It's almost as if the system is afraid to say that certain AFSCs actually contribute more to the mission than others....am I taking crazy pills?

[Liquid]

You start your posts by laying out your virtual pecker in an online dick measuring contest, whilst you have not confronted any other challenge asking you for credentials of some degree. You could be the college kid from the other forum trying to "pull rank" and bitch slap everyone on this forum that made you feel so small. I give credit and respect where it is due, and a random internet blog post doesn't make anyone an O-6 or above. Bullshit guidance composed in grammatically challenged posts makes me question the validity of your persona. Just saying...

The best argument folks have made to your guidance and judgment is that immediate peers and supervisors are the best measure we have in regards to the value an aviator presents to the unit. If he or she can hack the mission, fly the MWS, mentor youngsters, run his shop, and save or take lives in combat, then I can almost guarantee you that person is also an Instructor or Evaluator. That decision is made by people that understand the value or alck of that the person offers to the unit. That fukking box alone to a rated aviator is paramount and should hands down trump any bullshit online PME or AAD. IP or EP should be the first and a required box before even looking at the others. When it is time to take lead and focus less on just tactical and mission aspects, the PME and AAD MUST be relevant to the further development of that leader. Our priorities from the last Majors board seem to be much more in-line with my (and many here on Bops) thinking. For once in a long time, something became slightly less fukked up and credit is due. Since you have graded thousands of PRFs, your type of thinking is likely the kind of shit we have dealt with since circa 2007 that is a poison to the future of our AF.

If you are who you present yourself to be, then sir, I would love the opportunity to sit down and have this conversation over a cold beer and give you my perspective if I ever happen to be CONUS. If you are not, then perhaps the guidance given to the college kid looking for intimacy is guidance that should be offered here to you as well...

Well said. Proper sentence structure and grammar simply aren't a priority when I'm typing with one finger on this lame ass iPad keyboard with a whiskey in one hand. I type like I talk to friends. I'll buy the hit to my credibility. Sorry for confusing the issue, I do not mean to give guidance to anyone. Just an opinion and different perspective.

Obviously I'm not going to post my bio or describe my background and credentials. It would take some of you no time to figure out who I am. Hard to believe I am defending the value of anonymity in a blog like this. Again, I'll take the hit to my credibility by not convincing you I'm not some college kid pretending to be a pilot. You know and I know that my opinions and frank language do not belong with a signature line and AF stamp on them. There are other forums appropriate for my official, attributable guidance. This isn't one of them.

Look, I agree with you on the IP/EP value. Primary job performance is the most important consideration in starts, job selection, awards, PRF strength,etc. Obviously not all CCs, sr raters and boards agree, but a shit ton do. Sometimes this strong belief screws over good dudes who change aircraft before upgrading. Just like the AAD Nazis, they screw a good guy simply for not being an instructor without looking at the timing and requirements for experienced people in new weapon systems. On the last maj board, about a third of the top dudes in our rack didn't have their masters done, including several school selects. We didn't care and neither did the board. Not saying stupid decisions don't happen, just that they don't happen everywhere. CSAF asked for feedback from Wg CCs last fall and from MAJCOM CCs in Jan. There was overwhelming support for recommendations to mask AAD at the major board but not Lt Col and to direct sr raters to not consider it. I have always thought that and have fought to change the policy. There were also good recommendations to ditch blues Monday, get rid of the tape measurement and stop requiring correspondence PME before residence PME. We all make recommendations, make arguments and try to make change. Then when the decision is made by those who should make the decision, we move out.

I have these conversations over beers all the time. I'd be happy to have one with you.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Liquid

[Liquid]

To continue with this stupid analogy...

You assume everyone wants to be a coach in the first place. Right now, your beloved system forces out great people who want nothing more than to be the QB their entire careers. They get penalized for daring to question the careerist path that you've chosen.

It's all good. Eventually, all the QBs will leave, and you'll be forced to play with a team full of coaches and equipment managers, wondering what the hell happened. Best of luck.

I don't assume that at all. The AF offers continuation to virtually all rated officers passed over. When they don't, there is usually a reason, something derogatory in the record, or overmanning that requires force shaping. Congress sets the end strength numbers for each grade. Not everyone gets promoted, whether they all "deserve" to or not. The bottom 15-25% don't, but they can usually stay in and keep doing their job. Some officers think they deserve to be commanders, staffers and FGOs merely because of their performance in their primary, technical job like flying. They don't.

Don't worry. Even when the airlines are hiring, enough good people stay in. The AF will be just fine without those who separate due to being passed over or because they are unhappy with the requirements and competition related to promotions. We will continue to promote those who should do well at management/leadership jobs, but don't. And we will continue to pass over some good dudes who just got caught up in the consequences of being in the bottom half of the list. I know tons of great officers and pilots who lead their people, get the mission done and will make great commanders and senior leaders. We will do just fine without the toxic, anti-authority crowd.

Maybe CGOs are tired of giving their all to the mission, and being told its not good enough. Or seeing hard working mission hackers not get recognized for their contribution to the mission because someone else volunteered in the local community or organized the last unit social function while not being very good at their

AAD- if it really is important, then send officers to school as an assignment. Encourage real, valuable degrees, and not just checking the box. Reduce TA for officers-say 50-75% so if the officer still wants a BS degree, they will have to contribute to the wasted money.

It sucks that we have people that value volunteering one social functions more than mission. I don't see that, never have. Where it happens, it should change. We do send officers to school as an assignment. IDE, SDE, AFIT and special programs. We can't send everyone, too much money and too much mission. Reduce TA? Really? Our people aren't working hard enough to deserve education benefits if they want them?

[ThreeHoler]

CSAF asked for feedback from Wg CCs last fall and from MAJCOM CCs in Jan. There was overwhelming support for recommendations to mask AAD at the major board but not Lt Col and to direct sr raters to not consider it. I have always thought that and have fought to change the policy. There were also good recommendations to ditch blues Monday, get rid of the tape measurement and stop requiring correspondence PME before residence PME.

Don't know you from Adam, but for those who are wondering...from my second-hand knowledge of recent talks, this bit lends a good bit to Liquid's credibility.

Post on brotha-man. Sometimes the naysayers and doomcallers on here just get to be too much.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Exactly

Copy. SOS taught you how awesome you are.

Interesting way to kill time while at SOS

Here's an alternate perspective on SOS. I appreciated 8 weeks away from a tough ops tempo. I enjoyed meeting folks outside my MWS, and made some friends I still keep in touch with. I thought the effort the USAF put forth to spend the money, pull me out of the mission, and have PhDs with different perspectives lecture showed how important leadership considers education, even if this is the last time 90% of officers will see in-res education. There were some folks who struggled with SOS. Some folks took FLEX and the other "competitive" activities way too seriously, started barking orders, and lost the support of their team, which served as another learning opportunity for everyone around them and provided examples of how not to lead. There were some portions of SOS that I thought were boring, or geared toward the lowest common denominator, but some of my peers learned from those events.

I also learned some things at SOS. I learned there are a lot of good folks in my peer group, there are also some containercheckers because checking containers is what they have to do when they struggle at leading, and there are some folks who will take the first opportunity to dwell on something that can be improved, and rather than fix it, scream "see, the whole system is f*cked, I'm done".

More kool-aid anyone? "HEY KOOL-AID, OH YEAH!"

Edited June 9, 2013 by slick999

[Murph]

We did it. The disgruntled homer quota for this thread has been met.

[sqwatch]

Don't know you from Adam, but for those who are wondering...from my second-hand knowledge of recent talks, this bit lends a good bit to Liquid's credibility.

Post on brotha-man. Sometimes the naysayers and doomcallers on here just get to be too much.

Agreed. This board needs such a perspective.

More kool-aid anyone? "HEY KOOL-AID, OH YEAH!"

Brilliant

[Guest ThatGuy]

Agreed. This board needs such a perspective.

Brilliant

Sorry, I just didn't really care for SOS. FLEX, TAV, briefings, reports, eSSS...thought I was back at airman leadership school minus the FLEX, TAV, and eSSS. Most of the flyers performed the jobs during TAV except for 1 guy. I will never get those hours back from TAV or FLEX. Hell, my flight got beat by the overweight flight in FLEX. I had to sit out for my disc in my back and it was a sad sight to see.

[Murph]

Sorry, I just didn't really care for SOS. FLEX, TAV, briefings, reports, eSSS...thought I was back at airman leadership school minus the FLEX, TAV, and eSSS. Most of the flyers performed the jobs during TAV except for 1 guy. I will never get those hours back from TAV or FLEX. Hell, my flight got beat by the overweight flight in FLEX. I had to sit out for my disc in my back and it was a sad sight to see.

Sounds like you were just too cool for your own good.

[sqwatch]

. Some officers think they deserve to be commanders, staffers and FGOs merely because of their performance in their primary, technical job like flying. They don't.

Honest feedback that should happen more often.

Don't worry. Even when the airlines are hiring, enough good people stay in.

On the pilot side, the numbers and trends don't support this

Reduce TA? Really? Our people aren't working hard enough to deserve education benefits if they want them?

TA is a great benefit to have. It's like buying Kate Upton breast implants. More is better, but is it necessary? Do we have the money, especially with our current economy, to continue this benefit when we are offered the post 911 GI bill that is already a great deal (my kid's college is already paid for)? Does TA, and the current focus on a masters degree encourage folks to focus on an AAD that may not benefit the AF while discouraging primary job performance/improvement? When our government invests several million dollars per pilot to get them to a certain level, I'd like to see more encouragement (less discouragement) to maintain that very expensive skill set. As a taxpayer, it's a better return on my dollars. As a pilot, it gives me more confidence in my wingmen.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Sounds like you were just too cool for your own good.

And not to mention the 3 crazy parties that happened in lodging. I remember the commander telling us SF and lodging went upstairs to break up a party. The lights were out and dudes were running out of a room with hardly any clothes on. I paused for one second and I said to myself, "I hope there were women in that room." If not, then mmmmmkay. Seriously, I was thinking back in the day they had to throw some crazy ass parties to where flights and their instructors probably didn't show up to class the next day.

My instructor there was cool as hell though. He was like I had to leave Colorado for Alabama?...LMAO. He deserved to be promoted because he knows how to take care of his people. I guess that's why we got along.

Edited June 9, 2013 by slick999

[TarHeelPilot]

What boggles my mind about the promotion systems is that it doesn't take an individual's AFSC into account. What I mean is there seems to be a bunch of shoe AFSCs that are overmanned yet continue promoting people, while many MDSs are undermanned (in part due to people voting with their feet) and are having people passed over. It seems as though the system is content with the appearance of being "fair and equitable," as the Kool-Aid video at SOS described it, rather than the actual needs of the USAF. It's almost as if the system is afraid to say that certain AFSCs actually contribute more to the mission than others....am I taking crazy pills?

What's the solution? Separate rated and non-rated boards? Let the shoes who have racked up multiple AADs because they've never deployed and work 5 hours a day go against their own.

[Beaver]

To continue with this stupid analogy...

You assume everyone wants to be a coach in the first place. Right now, your beloved system forces out great people who want nothing more than to be the QB their entire careers. They get penalized for daring to question the careerist path that you've chosen.

It's all good. Eventually, all the QBs will leave, and you'll be forced to play with a team full of coaches and equipment managers, wondering what the hell happened. Best of luck.

This kind of got skipped over. Liquid: what's your take on this? I have been thinking about the similarity between CAF and a high school football team vs. a NFL team in this regard. Self-supported and self-coached vs. professionally supported and coached (at the squadron level).

[Champ Kind]

His answer will be to tote the party line just like every other spineless manager in this service...

"Go ahead and get out... We will replace you."

This is already happening. What's the avg time in service of guys getting sent to IP school in your respective communities, and how is it different from, say, 10 years ago?

The VSP from about 6 years ago rocked my community, and accelerated upgrades have been the solution.

[Spartacus]

I don't post often, but I just wanted to say that I am 99% sure that I know who Liquid is, and that he is the real deal. In fact I hope Liquid is on here often and taking what is said here to heart, and maybe even relaying what he is learning as appropriate.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Spartacus

[guineapigfury]

What's the solution? Separate rated and non-rated boards? Let the shoes who have racked up multiple AADs because they've never deployed and work 5 hours a day go against their own.

I'd split it up further and go by group type. MX and MSG/FSG can have up or out, Ops gets something different to reflect the millions of dollars spent training aviators. Rated officers should get promoted to Major on a "fully qualified" basis, just like captains. No boards until O-5. There is no shortage of guys wanting out, so overmanning shouldn't be an issue.

[Recut]

Along with what you are all saying, rated dudes will probably always hold the promotion system in contempt. We invest so much up front to the air force (getting a pilot slot, UPT, SERE, crew qual upgrades, etc etc) all while trying to not die in the process. Then we sign a 10 year ADSC for the effort and that ADSC doesn't say we get to keep flying.

On the other hand, other career fields don't sign that 10 year ADSC and can punch when they don't get promoted.......... makes no sense