Promotion and PRF Information

[General Condition]

What? The heads that rolled, and pain that continues on that... and.. you can't be serious.

As serious as a heart attack.

[Champ Kind]

What? The heads that rolled, and pain that continues on that... and.. you can't be serious.

As serious as a heart attack.

It's true.

[GBock]

My apologies - copy and paste from word doesn't work like a champ.

Looks like you could have used an exec.

[matmacwc]

It's good to have a Liquid type around here, he can watch us bitch about things that are probably filtered out at his level. Just realize where he is coming from, his posts do allude to O-6 and up (probably higher than O-6). We used to have ClearedHot, but I haven't seen him on here in a while.

Back to your regular scheduled programming.......

[Liquid]

Remember everyone, "Shoe Clerk" is not a job ... "Shoe Clerk" is a mindset and attitude.

"Shoe Clerk" is a 2-hour lunch or taking gym time when there's actual mission to be done.

"Shoe Clerk" is surfing Facebook while someone stands waiting at the customer service desk.

"Shoe Clerk" is closed for training and not actually getting any better.

"Shoe Clerk" is saying 'no' rather than actually trying to help people or solve the problem.

"Shoe Clerk" is thinking the bureaucracy and/or the processes are more important than the results.

Don't be a Shoe Clerk.

It's a decision YOU make.

I stand corrected. I've seen the term widely used to divide ops and support. The mindset and attitude you describe should be stomped out.

[matmacwc]

And I'm not kissing ass, 11.5 years AD and now guard.

[Gravedigger]

You have a senior leader here, a flag officer, engaging in conversation with you. He has opinions, naturally, but is respectfully conversing. Rather than seeing this as a grand opportunity to have your personal perspective heard and possibly to influence high level promotion/PRF positive changes, you act like fukkers questioning his motives and leadership. That's baseops for ya!

I liked this post. In other news, Satan is eating a Popsicle.

[matmacwc]

You have a senior leader here, a flag officer, engaging in conversation with you. He has opinions, naturally, but is respectfully conversing. Rather than seeing this as a grand opportunity to have your personal perspective heard and possibly to influence high level promotion/PRF positive changes, you act like fukkers questioning his motives and leadership. That's baseops for ya!

And you need to GFY, this isn't AF.COM. He knew what he was getting into, you do not. Weren't you in timeout?

I liked this post. In other news, Satan is eating a Popsicle.

You liked this?

[Liquid]

General Condition, I can't get the quote function to work. I'm not naive enough to think I can reblue anyone here. I'm also not impressed with your authority to ask me to leave. You think we should take actions to help people but not the institution? False choice. You can do both, but you can't promote everyone. We can't take care of everyone equally when it comes to promotion. We obviously need to make some significant institutional change to make it better for people, no argument there. About 90% of the force makes Major. The bottom 10% is easy relatively easy to identify. Ft CCs, sq CCs and grp CCs help that. Spreadsheets that give points are retarded and used by the retarded. I've never seen one but they obviously exist. The top half is easy to identify. The DPs usually have much better records than the Ps. It is quite obvious when you look at thousands that sr raters and MLRs stratify the record consistently. And I get it, many of you say the criteria is flawed and too much weight is given to box checking. I disagree. From what I have seen, those passed over had the weakest records. Not saying they were all dirtbags, they weren't. The boards look at job performance, breadth, depth, stratification, combat, distinction (major awards and decs) to assess past performance and demonstrated capability to perform at next grade. They rack and stack, then draw a red line. You got a better way, let me know.

I didn't start the sports analogy, but ok the top 50% of a football team are the starters on the field. The bottom half is on the bench and special teams trying to get a starting position. I fully aware of the value of 30 seconds, precision and not making mistakes during combat. Don't assume you are the only warfighter here. The pendulum on strats needs to come back, but the ultimate strat is the promotion board. The Air Force will be fine. Post Afghanistan, drawdown and budget cuts will suck, but we have a good Chief and we are making good progress. Not all of the senior leaders, commanders and BTZ Lt Cols are careerists. All the ones you know may be, but you live in a small world. If your community values the wrong shit, change it. Typing here with half a buzz doesn't really get much done. I've been bashing and changing the bullshit policies our AF has been dishing out for 20+ years and I'm not retiring any time soon.

You guys are wrong on this promotion rant. The bottom 10-25% (depending on which board) is the bottom based on their record. Some good dudes get passed over but most have something in their record or not in their record that ranks them lower. No upgrade, no breadth, nothing other than "did a decent job at the position we hired and pay him for." Some just have shitty bosses. And if you think the AF is the only institution or business that has shitty bosses you are wrong.

######, I don't know how you guys have the motivation or time to blog this shit. Last point, those who refuse to do PME should just ######ing quit. Nothing says ###### you more than refusing to learn more about war fighting, history, leadership and decision making. Arrogant pricks think continuing education is not needed in a profession. Sure it could be better, but we are talking about civilian government employees and academia, what do you expect? Make the best of it, learn something and teach someone something.

[Liquid]

Me too. I was guessing that Liquid is a recent retiree along with a few other recent posters that came out of the wookwork. Perhaps upper management was directive in getting a few to join the conversation rather than just listen. Perhaps they think the forum has sway and influence.

1. At levels below the DP giver, raters use spreadsheets and on those spreadsheets are boxes and those boxes are given values. When a perfect PT test heavily outweighs DG in a formal program, priorities are ######ed up. People looking for promotion will put emphasis on those areas that gain them the most. Do you have a fix for that one?

2. DP givers still hold the weight on the promotion system with the DP. If they think that the masters and PME are more important, that is where they go. I've seen it over and over and even on this last Maj board. You call it self eliminate. I and others call it mismatched priorities. When will the AF mask AAD for Maj and below?

Lastly, shoving things up my ass is no go. The mil may say its OK, but not me. I'm fed up with the current scheme and when I hear it here of all places, emotions fly.

Life in the trenches

Out

No directive I've heard. Spreadsheets with values are wrong. Rack and stacks I've seen and been a part of are founded first in Flt cc and sq cc inputs on how good they are a their primary job, and how talented they are, period. Ask your CCs to explain the spreadsheet, then give them direct feedback if your unit uses them. Hopefully, AAD masked at the next Maj board. Sorry for the ass comment, sometimes I'm a sensitive bitch.

[matmacwc]

Stick around Liquid, we complain, but we live in reality (one we want to change). There are some loose cannons here, but most of us get it, though we may not like the masters requirement (Can't really argue with PME).

[RTB]

My thoughts as an 11F after 20+ in the AF:

- Promotions up to Lt Col generally get it right. But occasionally blows it big time.

- Continuing education SHOULD be a good thing...implementation in the form of our current slate of PME offerings is horrible and is NOT continuing education. After IDE in res (after correspondence of course!) and SDE correspondence, all 3 programs, IMO, were years behind the times, taught by out of touch, irrelevant instructors, using terrible courseware. Each felt like a huge waste of time.

- Command selection process at the Squadron level leaves a LOT to be desired. Many good, far too many bad. The good seem to retire afterwards at too high a rate. My reaction of "WTF?" happens WAY too often. Too many baffling picks for Sq/CC in the CAF. Same holds true for OGs and FW/CCs, many good but still too many not. How do the crappy ones continue on when their Groups and Wings can't stand them? At the Squadron level, too many GO-directed disruptions of 'gameplans' to ensure 'their guy' got hooked up.

- Too much career risk-aversion from senior leadership. Too much unwillingness to do the right thing for fear of what might happen to them if doesn't turn out roses. So many missed opportunities because someone with Stars was unwilling to trust their subordinates...

- SOS DG after a 7 week program as a young Captain carries WAY too much weight in a career. Guys ride that strat all the way to Squadron Command! Crazy.

- Combat experience SHOULD be a discriminator. Unfortunately, our "system" has passed out combat medals for the most mundane stuff diluting their significance.

- AADs add nothing to the experience and if the AF feels they are necessary for senior command, they should send you to get one after a squadron command tour. I have my ERAU degree and it is useless outside the AF. Aerospace Technology? I think I was able to re-use the same paper 3 times. I was just trying to get through and survive the load flying the line at work, keeping the family happy (failed) and chugging through the masters at the same time. Having guys flying the line, going through IPUG, working scheduling in an undermanned squadron while attending night or online classes is stupid. Family is so important to the AF? People are our biggest asset? Bullshit. The AAD is too important to the machine. Get it or get out. Your family will understand...makes me fume! Actually stood in a FS MBR and heard a General tell one of our pilots that he just wasn't good enough at time management if he couldn't juggle everything. We thought he was joking. He was dead serious. YGBFSM.

- Good leaders and pilots punch out way too early because the requirements of the machine are too onerous. And then there are the 365 iTDYs... Really? To WHERE??? I've seen way too many guys bail who would have been great for the AF. Too bad. At least the Guard got their talents.

I sound bitter. I'm really not. I was offered command "opportunities" but they didn't match up with my family QOL requirements so I bowed out. And I'm very happy about it. But my list of observations about the AF machine still frustrate me on a daily basis.

[Runr6730]

Liquid sounds like a certain AMC higher-up who told a contingent of aviators asking about ops tempo relief and more time with their families after last year's super-surge to "Get out if this isn't what you want because there are plenty of people lining up to replace you"

[BitteEinBit]

The bottom 10% is easy relatively easy to identify. The DPs usually have much better records than the Ps. From what I have seen, those passed over had the weakest records. Not saying they were all dirtbags, they weren't. The boards look at job performance, breadth, depth, stratification, combat, distinction (major awards and decs) to assess past performance and demonstrated capability to perform at next grade. They rack and stack, then draw a red line. You got a better way, let me know.

Not all of the senior leaders, commanders and BTZ Lt Cols are careerists.

You guys are wrong on this promotion rant. The bottom 10-25% (depending on which board) is the bottom based on their record. Some good dudes get passed over but most have something in their record or not in their record that ranks them lower. No upgrade, no breadth, nothing other than "did a decent job at the position we hired and pay him for." Some just have shitty bosses. And if you think the AF is the only institution or business that has shitty bosses you are wrong.

Liquid, I agree with most of what you say. Most of those who are promoted deserve it and do a great job...most meaning as little as one promotee better than 50%. I understand that we can't promote everyone...even if 100% of those up for promotion were sh*t hot, but there was only a 90% promotion opportunity, 10% of those sh*t hot officers would be denied promotion. Got it.

There is some consistency in your posts that actually relates to what we are talking about here...and it is no secret. YOU the individual don't get promoted, your records do. So, yes, the bottom 50% are easy to identify if you are using criteria like AAD, PME, etc to select them. Without ever looking at one single OPR, I could probably predict with accuracy who was going to get promoted on this last Majors board if you just give me information on PME/AAD, in-res/corr completion alone. The stats don't lie. Don't tell me they weren't racked and stacked mainly based on AAD completion. Job performance? Really, we had IPs and EPs (presumably experts at their jobs) shown the door. Please tell me those dirtbag officers weren't out there training and evaluating our rated force. Ok, I know they weren't dirtbags...I knew several of them. They were some of the most experienced aviators in the squadron. What did they all have in common? BAC+ or less. I know they were racked and stacked based on that...I witnessed the process. Clean kill? Depends on how you look at it. I can't imagine any other flying organization in the world who would pick the guy with the AAD in cultural studies over the experienced IP/EP...but thats just me. Believe me, AAD does not make the officer. It just means in a lot of cases, those guys took themselves off the flying schedule or a TDY to finish that Masters. Sure, probably just in my small corner of the world, but it happened too often to be just something happening in my squadron. Certainly someone else out there not in my squadron has seen the same things.

My real point is that the record does not always accurately describe a great leader....they look like a great leader because of a great writer. Inversely, the poor records don't mean a poor leader...just a bad writer...and most likely written by the member anyway. In 15 years of service, I had a rater write exactly 3 of my many OPRs. I wrote the rest. That is a problem in our Air Force.

I can list many instances where our "top" strat officers on paper are really less than stellar in real life...like the one who shows for work at 0900, takes a 2 hour lunch with wife and family, races for the door at 1630 (or before to avoid retreat), avoids the schedulers phone call for that weekend mission because he has to take the kids to Legoland or finish a Master's paper (not on leave by the way), or the guy who manages to avoid deployments and even pulled strings to get a staff job to get out of one after being identified on the short list for that iTDY. Their records look spectacular, and some of them are "good dudes," but they hardly fit the model of quality "leadership" (IMHO). They just managed to do a couple of pretty good things in the past...so that plus an AAD completed 5 years ago makes them a better leader. Got it. Tell me where the mission first mentality is? The ones I know that think mission first are exactly the ones taking those weekend missions and not doing the Masters papers...they also aren't getting promoted.

I think that is where the arguments about OPRs and the promotion process are coming from. We see it at our level...promotion boards do not see it...and realistically can't see it. So, we need to be more accurate in those "records" that seem to be so important. Our OPR system is so inflated because we so don't want to hurt anyone's feelings that even the obviously bottom 1% guy who is passed over for promotion is surprised he/she didn't get promoted.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Personally, family should always come first because you can't accomplish the mission without having a sound support structure at home. Behind every great man or woman there is a great family.

I can understand if you are constantly deployed to theaters like Iraq or Afghanistan and not obtaining your AAD. However, I've seen people do it and flying almost 6 days a week. If we were mission planners once a week in Iraq the mission got planned and the AAD was getting worked on as well. In Afghanistan I had to fly, sit Ops Sup, and SOF while others only had the task of flying. The most trusted and competent get the extra jobs.

My buddy completed his AAD but after our second deployment I was 3 classes shy. He went on to SOS a year and a half ahead of me. I grew weary after two almost back to back 6 month deployments. I finished up those last three classes then I got to go to SOS.

I saw people working on their AAD during SOS. Talking about feeling the pain...gesh.

Honestly, people gave me crap for not leaving my crib to knock out my last three classes. "Come out and party people would say." Same individuals who haven't completed their correspondence work or started their AAD. I said no thanks and I sacrificed my time hoping my decision would let me finish what I started AAD wise.

Edited June 11, 2013 by slick999

[addict]

someone in this thread wrote

Senior officers don’t do work, they create it

Love it.

[Liquid]

Bitte, I agree with everything you just said.

[ThreeHoler]

My real point is that the record does not always accurately describe a great leader....they look like a great leader because of a great writer. Inversely, the poor records don't mean a poor leader...just a bad writer...and most likely written by the member anyway. In 15 years of service, I had a rater write exactly 3 of my many OPRs. I wrote the rest. That is a problem in our Air Force.

This is my #1/69 beefs with "the system." I despise those who push the first draft onto the ratee. My experience with my own OPRs has been similar. I was actually taken aback when my rater wrote my O-4 PRF draft and sent it to me to make sure he didn't miss anything important. I was expecting to have to write it myself.

I start every OPR by opening the shell with blocks IV and V blank. I write almost every bullet from scratch, except in the case of a 'team' bullet that all my ratees worked on, then I might craft one bullet for the team and re-use it in their OPRs. Is it time consuming? Yes. Does it take a lot of work? Only if my ratee gives me lackluster inputs. But that is my job as a rater. I do my best to accurately reflect the contributions of all my ratees and I write each OPR to the level of stratification (or lack thereof) they have earned.

I hate writing OPRs. But I hate watching people struggle to write their own more. However, I give my ratees the option to attempt writing bullets should they wish. Most of the time I don't use their bullets in any way, but it gives them an opportunity to see how they wrote a bullet versus how I would write a bullet for the same event. Hopefully, it will help them when they have to write bullets for their ratees.

Sadly, this is one of those things that we, the unwashed masses, can address and fix by standing up as a group of FGOs and CGOs to write OPRs instead of pushing it to our ratees.

[Ravens52]

This is my #1/69 beefs with "the system." I despise those who push the first draft onto the ratee. My experience with my own OPRs has been similar. I was actually taken aback when my rater wrote my O-4 PRF draft and sent it to me to make sure he didn't miss anything important. I was expecting to have to write it myself.

I start every OPR by opening the shell with blocks IV and V blank. I write almost every bullet from scratch, except in the case of a 'team' bullet that all my ratees worked on, then I might craft one bullet for the team and re-use it in their OPRs. Is it time consuming? Yes. Does it take a lot of work? Only if my ratee gives me lackluster inputs. But that is my job as a rater. I do my best to accurately reflect the contributions of all my ratees and I write each OPR to the level of stratification (or lack thereof) they have earned.

I hate writing OPRs. But I hate watching people struggle to write their own more. However, I give my ratees the option to attempt writing bullets should they wish. Most of the time I don't use their bullets in any way, but it gives them an opportunity to see how they wrote a bullet versus how I would write a bullet for the same event. Hopefully, it will help them when they have to write bullets for their ratees.

Sadly, this is one of those things that we, the unwashed masses, can address and fix by standing up as a group of FGOs and CGOs to write OPRs instead of pushing it to our ratees.

This.

[10percenttruth]

My last rater would have us send him a data document split into 2 parts: one with the raw data that you wanted to use & one with your hack at a bullet with that data. He'd then use it to craft the OPR. After having written most of my own OPRs, it seemed like practice bleeding, but for younger dudes, I thought it was a good exercise in bullet crafting, as well as giving the CC something to work with.

Edited June 11, 2013 by 10percenttruth

[disgruntledemployee]

Liquid,

My #1 issue with our system is that it emphasizes the wrong things. I and many others that have AADs can testify that most of the work doesn't truely make us better leaders. Sure there are small areas where it makes us better, like maybe a better writer. Maybe you received your masters in a classroom. Most kids today get theirs from a diploma mill. There are a few that decide they will invest their time and get a masters that means something, say engineering because TPS is something they might like doing. When flyers are doing AADs alongside UPT/UNT/Grad Flying Training because the AF telegraphes its promotion criteria in the stats it puts out post board, I lower my head in shame. If the AF would say instead, if you get DG in Undergrad or Grad flying training, that counts twice as much as SOS in Res, people will put more energy there. All I'm trying to say is that people will put their energy into what the AF thinks is important and what the individual thinks is important.

If the AF wants AADs that will benefit, delete the AAD requirement for selection to Maj. Send Majs to ACSC and other PME that have AAD options and send enough for to cover the LTC personnel numbers for each board. Send the technical types to Wright-Patt. Now you have your Maj with an AAD in something that is more applicable to the AF and PME complete. And then you're back to job performance to rack and stack for LTC promotion. Simplistic description, but you get the idea.

As for the system selecting squadron commanders, that is for another thread another day.

Paraphrase...

Spreadsheets that give points are retarded and used by the retarded. I've never seen one but they obviously exist.

I really needed to highlight this item. Maybe the retarded will see it.

Good chat

Out

[pawnman]

I've been told, and my impression is that it is true, that the front page is your ticket. If you don't have SOS, AAD, etc checked, you don't have a ticket. The board won't even bother to look at the OPRs and the citations if you don't meet the minimum requirements.

It sucks. The boss who described AAD and PME as a ticket acknowledged it sucks. But you either have the choice to play by the rules as they're set down, and hope to change them as you get higher in the system, or you can just go ahead and cash out now.

Edited June 11, 2013 by pawnman

[ThreeHoler]

I've been told, and my impression is that it is true, that the front page is your ticket. If you don't have SOS, AAD, etc checked, you don't have a ticket. The board won't even bother to look at the OPRs and the citations if you don't meet the minimum requirements.

It sucks. The boss who described AAD and PME as a ticket acknowledged it sucks. But you either have the choice to play by the rules as they're set down, and hope to change them as you get higher in the system, or you can just go ahead and cash out now.

Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+?

[pawnman]

Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+?

Well, when the selection rates are really high, then sometimes you can get through without the AAD. I'm guessing you got one before O-5, though.

[slc]

Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+?

Wow, I'm 4 mo. shy of 20 and I don't even know what this BAC+ is !!!!!