Promotion and PRF Information

[tac airlifter]

5 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

And unless your a patch, almost none of the efforts on the way up will tie in with being a warrior or combat aviator. 

I’m sorry if this has been your experience.  It has not been mine at all, and I don’t agree with this portion of your statement.

[Danger41]

I’ll tell you that being a Patch should not mean you just PA to O-5. I’ll also tell you that you do not have to be a Patch to be a shit hot tactician. Some of the most lethal aviators I know are not Patches and some of the most garbage officers I know are Patches. Don’t let labels define who you are in the AF. 

[MooseClub]

GoodSplash9 is spot on about making any real change. A Sqd CC can certainly affect the lives of the folks under them, but an effect on the system...not a chance. I’m not sure what level that truly takes but my assumption based on 14+ years is it’s going to at least require multiple stars. It’s frustrating and disheartening and drives a lot of good folks to find a livelihood elsewhere. Can’t blame anyone who moves on with their life to greener pastures....tip of the hat to those who stay for the long term. 

[viper154]

28 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Not sure what RPA you are flying, but there are cockpits. I just recently had a bro go from herks to RPAs to tankers. My other buddy went from legacy herks to RPAs to the C-130J. They are releasing flyers from RPAs and not allowing flyers to go to RPAs from what I heard. I think I saw a PSDM where if you haven't actually flown your MWS aircraft in 4-5 years, you stay in RPAs. Don't quote me on that one because I think it was more date specific. 

If you been in RPAs for 5+ years there was a recat board a few months back, odds were not good if you were in that boat. If not your odds are good of getting back to a jet. We have had two to T-6s, one to T-1s, a 130J, U-28, AWACS, EC-130, C-17, 135. It was a mix bag of returning to previous airframes and going to a new jet. We have a few more prior manned dudes that have been told to expect an assignment in the next 12 months. It’s a mass exodus of manned from RPAs right now. 

 

Back to regularly scheduled PRF/OPR talk. 

[GoodSplash9]

On 11/24/2018 at 5:31 PM, tac airlifter said:

I’m sorry if this has been your experience.  It has not been mine at all, and I don’t agree with this portion of your statement.

 

22 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I’ll tell you that being a Patch should not mean you just PA to O-5. I’ll also tell you that you do not have to be a Patch to be a shit hot tactician. Some of the most lethal aviators I know are not Patches and some of the most garbage officers I know are Patches. Don’t let labels define who you are in the AF. 

You guys are both right, what I typed was wrong. I'd venture to say most pilots (if not all) in the Air Force have made awesome contributions on the battle field and tactically in support of their mission. I've definitely done stuff I'm proud of that I feel like made a difference in the reaper.

The bitterness for me and what I should have said comes from the fact that despite what commanders usually say, actions and follow through don't usually line up supporting that "mission first" and "performance in primary duty" are really valued as desired traits for officers. I got tired of VIP/DV visits, change of commands, and other QWEEPY BS that leadership pushes to set you up for award packages, strats, and "desired" jobs. It came to the point where the time required to stay tactically proficient and actually lead the people while doing those things wasn't worth the cost for family and personal life. Nothing new, same stuff driving most pilots out.

21 hours ago, viper154 said:

If you been in RPAs for 5+ years there was a recat board a few months back, odds were not good if you were in that boat. If not your odds are good of getting back to a jet. We have had two to T-6s, one to T-1s, a 130J, U-28, AWACS, EC-130, C-17, 135. It was a mix bag of returning to previous airframes and going to a new jet. We have a few more prior manned dudes that have been told to expect an assignment in the next 12 months. It’s a mass exodus of manned from RPAs right now. 

 

Back to regularly scheduled PRF/OPR talk. 

Viper, you still flying RPAs? I'm a little bit of a unicorn as a UPT direct dude that recategorized voluntarily about 2.5 years ago. I was hoping to "make a difference" and lead some people. The above factors and a medical issue at a bad time led to me re-evaluating. I hit my 2 year mark this month, and my SQ and OG leadership know that I plan to 7-day opt any orders and get out if I can't get back to a real cockpit. I was about 95% there for scoring a white jet gig a few months ago, and my medical status changed only letting me fly a crew aircraft. I'd be grateful if anyone has advice on persuading my SQ/OG leadership and AFPC to consider pushing me back to a cockpit (preferably AMC). I'm already 100% committed to looking for Guard/Reserve flying gigs, but I'd be happy to stay on active duty if I can fly.

[SurelySerious]

2 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If there are any functional types out there, please correct me if I am wrong. But once you recat to RPAs, you aren't getting out of that fiasco. Your functional isn't going to allow you to leave if you voluntarily requested to have your Core ID changed. Don't ever take the devil's (AFPC) candy. Saying you will 7 day opt will only lead to the school house spitting out one more body to replace you and your CC eyeballing his next CCE. Sorry to break it to you man and I wish you the best.

Not true with respect to taking a white jet tour in a few cases. They have some latitude, but maybe not for a full return. 

[viper154]

20 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

 

You guys are both right, what I typed was wrong. I'd venture to say most pilots (if not all) in the Air Force have made awesome contributions on the battle field and tactically in support of their mission. I've definitely done stuff I'm proud of that I feel like made a difference in the reaper.

The bitterness for me and what I should have said comes from the fact that despite what commanders usually say, actions and follow through don't usually line up supporting that "mission first" and "performance in primary duty" are really valued as desired traits for officers. I got tired of VIP/DV visits, change of commands, and other QWEEPY BS that leadership pushes to set you up for award packages, strats, and "desired" jobs. It came to the point where the time required to stay tactically proficient and actually lead the people while doing those things wasn't worth the cost for family and personal life. Nothing new, same stuff driving most pilots out.

Viper, you still flying RPAs? I'm a little bit of a unicorn as a UPT direct dude that recategorized voluntarily about 2.5 years ago. I was hoping to "make a difference" and lead some people. The above factors and a medical issue at a bad time led to me re-evaluating. I hit my 2 year mark this month, and my SQ and OG leadership know that I plan to 7-day opt any orders and get out if I can't get back to a real cockpit. I was about 95% there for scoring a white jet gig a few months ago, and my medical status changed only letting me fly a crew aircraft. I'd be grateful if anyone has advice on persuading my SQ/OG leadership and AFPC to consider pushing me back to a cockpit (preferably AMC). I'm already 100% committed to looking for Guard/Reserve flying gigs, but I'd be happy to stay on active duty if I can fly.

I’m still at my RPA squadron but I am PCSing to a cockpit after the new year, got my assignment a few months ago, finally dropped orders today. I was a UPT D from the round 3 years ago. As a recat your only option is white jet, so with your med status T-1s are probably your only bet. Hopefully you can snag a jet. I here the AF is looking to ramp up UPT, going to require more instructors 

[soupafly06]

With O-5 PRFs coming due to groups and wings in the not too distant future, what advice do you salty types have on what should be included or not?  The definites include:

- Command and school push along with Joint/HAF/MAJCOM/NAF Staff (in that order)

- Stats and awards and examples of leadership at increasing levels of responsibility

- Super "P" ("If I had one more DP to give) for those without a DP

Negative indicators and unhelpful bullets:

- No strats and awards or periods of no strats anywhere in the record

- Leaning too heavily on deployed experience unless in a leadership role

- No command or school push in bottom line 

Just a few of the things I've seen tossed about this board but wanted to get the discussion going.   Also, has any one here gotten picked up APZ with just a "P" and if so, how'd you pull it off? Looking at the stats from last year if you're APZ and a pilot then you had a little over 1% chance of getting picked up with a "P" recommendation only but almost a 90% chance of promotion if you picked up a "DP".  For the APZ types I'd guess this means any chance for promotion will not come via the board but your senior rater, for better or for worse.  Anyone have any luck having a chat with their senior rater before the big rack and stack began to convince them you were worth a "DP"?

[Skitzo]

With O-5 PRFs coming due to groups and wings in the not too distant future, what advice do you salty types have on what should be included or not?  The definites include:
- Command and school push along with Joint/HAF/MAJCOM/NAF Staff (in that order)
- Stats and awards and examples of leadership at increasing levels of responsibility
- Super "P" ("If I had one more DP to give) for those without a DP
Negative indicators and unhelpful bullets:
- No strats and awards or periods of no strats anywhere in the record
- Leaning too heavily on deployed experience unless in a leadership role
- No command or school push in bottom line 
Just a few of the things I've seen tossed about this board but wanted to get the discussion going.   Also, has any one here gotten picked up APZ with just a "P" and if so, how'd you pull it off? Looking at the stats from last year if you're APZ and a pilot then you had a little over 1% chance of getting picked up with a "P" recommendation only but almost a 90% chance of promotion if you picked up a "DP".  For the APZ types I'd guess this means any chance for promotion will not come via the board but your senior rater, for better or for worse.  Anyone have any luck having a chat with their senior rater before the big rack and stack began to convince them you were worth a "DP"?

I’ll take a screen shot of my PRF ITZ to O-5 and upload tomorrow. I got a P. I had multiple FGO OTY awards at the Squadron and one at the Group level plus 2x Expeditionary Sq/CC gigs and was the Commander of MX Operations (130 enlisted) when my board met.

Do I think that my record was stronger than someone else that got a DP, yes I do. I was taken to the MLR and lost out on the DP, so you have to understand those types of reindeer games.

If you give the other guy P and Skitzo a DP then the other guy won’t get picked up. If I give the other guy a DP and Skitzo a P other guy will get promoted and Skitzo might get the MLR DP and if he doesn’t he has the silver bullet at worst.

Long and short of it, no DP you almost need the super P. If someone smart out there knows how many senior raters are out there chime in but my best guess is around 120 figuring in non wing senior rater types. I believe there was a total of 213 with a P picked up.

Some senior raters have more DPs allocated than others, some have none at all.


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[MooseClub]

1 hour ago, soupafly06 said:

With O-5 PRFs coming due to groups and wings in the not too distant future, what advice do you salty types have on what should be included or not?  The definites include:

- Command and school push along with Joint/HAF/MAJCOM/NAF Staff (in that order)

- Stats and awards and examples of leadership at increasing levels of responsibility

- Super "P" ("If I had one more DP to give) for those without a DP

Negative indicators and unhelpful bullets:

- No strats and awards or periods of no strats anywhere in the record

- Leaning too heavily on deployed experience unless in a leadership role

- No command or school push in bottom line 

Just a few of the things I've seen tossed about this board but wanted to get the discussion going.   Also, has any one here gotten picked up APZ with just a "P" and if so, how'd you pull it off? Looking at the stats from last year if you're APZ and a pilot then you had a little over 1% chance of getting picked up with a "P" recommendation only but almost a 90% chance of promotion if you picked up a "DP".  For the APZ types I'd guess this means any chance for promotion will not come via the board but your senior rater, for better or for worse.  Anyone have any luck having a chat with their senior rater before the big rack and stack began to convince them you were worth a "DP"?

You want the DP.  Period. 

Also, something not spoken of often is (assuming you’re an average Joe and not a preordained golden child) you need someone to advocate for you. I knew a couple guys who’s PRFs were VERY similar in nearly every aspect.  One of them had someone who fought for him to get a DP in discussions w/ the Wg cc. The other guy didn’t. The guy who got the DP of course was promoted, the other wasn’t.  Nearly identical PRFs but opposite results. None of that is in your control btw. The longer I’ve been in the more I’ve learned just how little control you actually have in your career. 

If you can get a DP good on ya! You won’t have much to worry about. If you don’t get one, go into it with eyes wide open. Look at the last board for folks w/ only a P, those rates are not good. Far from impossible, but very sobering. 

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If your Senior Rater doesn't know you before the board, chances are he doesn't want to see your face in person either.

If you want PRF feedback, schedule an appointment.  If you want the SR to explain to you why you got a P, schedule an appointment.  I've never had a SR unwilling to meet personally to explain my situation.

[pawnman]

21 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

That's like talking to a ref after being called for a foul or penalty. I just never understand why people do that and nothing is going to change in my opinion. 

Because if you can get that feedback 2BPZ or 1BPZ, you still have time to affect the IPZ results.  

Debrief is where all the lessons are learned.  Your career isn't any different.  Even if all you get is DFPs you can pass on to younger guys, it's still worth the time and effort.

[ThreeHoler]

A 2BPZ PRF is not required and most people don't submit one. At 1BPZ the Group is prepping your PRF for IPZ. I don't know of a single soul who has gone to the WG/CC for feedback on a PRF. If you aren't receiving feedback at the squadron or group level then something is wrong. Going to the WG/CC is just like quibbling to me. Your Sq/CC and Gp/CC should know where you stand. 

Your tiny view of the AF is not very accurate for the broader force.

Many SRs write and submit complete 2BPZ PRFs. They have to do the work anyway (unless the member elects to submit it blank). It also gives the member two draft versions before the IPZ goes live.

But be careful, as you can have 2BPZ and 1BPZ with all the right pieces...and a new SR comes in and decides your PRF doesn’t need that “definitely promote” in the bottom line.

I know someone who went to the SR after they weren’t promoted with a P (reindeer games) wound up getting his PRF invalidated, and going to a supplemental board with an outright DP.

I know many other people who have asked for the feedback. It is only quibbling if you go to argue. If you go to truly understand why you didn’t get what you thought you deserved, then it can be valuable.


Most Sq/CCs don’t really understand strats and pushes. Many Gp/CCs don’t either. My Sq/CC told me straight to my face that my PRF was great. I said it wasn’t. Guess who was right?

I’ve seen too many good people get burned by not knowing there is even a game to play when they’re Lt and Capt.

[Bender]

Gp/CC told every captain to fly and don't fail a fitness test and you will be promoted. Everyone got promoted including the guy who wasn't an IP. The captain who failed his fitness test was passed over twice. CC preached the same thing. I know you got screwed over but there are some legitimate leaders out there.
Shiny penny 2BPZ PRFs are submitted. The others don't leave the squadron if you decide to submit one. Want to bet?

You might be the new Bender.

Bendy

[MooseClub]

2 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

I’ve seen too many good people get burned by not knowing there is even a game to play when they’re Lt and Capt.
 

 

^ absolutely true. 

Folks are getting looked at when they show up to that first assignment and compared to others in the same year group from day one. Those shiny pennies are identified by the time you’re a young captain. Great if you’re one of them but if you aren’t, realize it will be highly difficult to ever break into that group. The people identified will quickly start building high quality strats in their paperwork. This amounts to an investment by your community.  This also means those HPOs can ride that wave since so much gets invested in their paperwork so early on. They almost have to screw up or self illuminate after a while. Adds to the difficulty of any “average” officer ever moving up into that top tier — you basically have to bump someone out (who’s already vested) and you can imagine that once that effort has been put into someone’s record your community’s leaders aren’t going to be quick to do that. They develop a plan early on, and once in motion they don’t want to change it. 

We compete as year groups and rest assured every year group in each community will have its top tier selected very early in their careers. It’s the nature of the system. Make sure you know where you stand in your year group. Demand that honest feedback. It’s harder to get than it should be. 

[ThreeHoler]

Gp/CC told every captain to fly and don't fail a fitness test and you will be promoted. Everyone got promoted including the guy who wasn't an IP. The captain who failed his fitness test was passed over twice. CC preached the same thing. I know you got screwed over but there are some legitimate leaders out there.
Shiny penny 2BPZ PRFs are submitted. The others don't leave the squadron if you decide to submit one. Want to bet?

Yup. Because I have 2BPZ and 1BPZ “as met” packages complete with the signed PRF from my SR.

You are trying to apply the O-4 promotion process to the O-5 process and they are a completely different animal.

O-4: 75% DP allocation and 95%+ selection rate. Of course doing your job and not failing a PT test (also your job) will get you promoted.

O-5: ~55% DP allocation and

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If your Senior Rater doesn't know you before the board, chances are he doesn't want to see your face in person either. I've had some cool WG/CCs and Gp/CCs I knew on a personal level. They took care of their people to include me for promotion. But not everyone falls into that category. 

Maybe it's different for O-5, but for O-4 the Group will give you a yellow envelope with your PRF inside. You either received a P, DP, or if I had one more DP to give inside that envelope. There was no sit down or meet and greet before with anyone.

During the RIF back in the day, you were handed a small white envelope and it basically told you what the WG/CC recommended. 

I got my Maj, 2BPZ, and 1BZ directly from my WG/CC in the wing conference room, and he'd booked out the next 90 minutes to talk to the folks he'd just given PRFs to.

[pawnman]

5 hours ago, MooseClub said:

^ absolutely true. 

Folks are getting looked at when they show up to that first assignment and compared to others in the same year group from day one. Those shiny pennies are identified by the time you’re a young captain. Great if you’re one of them but if you aren’t, realize it will be highly difficult to ever break into that group. The people identified will quickly start building high quality strats in their paperwork. This amounts to an investment by your community.  This also means those HPOs can ride that wave since so much gets invested in their paperwork so early on. They almost have to screw up or self illuminate after a while. Adds to the difficulty of any “average” officer ever moving up into that top tier — you basically have to bump someone out (who’s already vested) and you can imagine that once that effort has been put into someone’s record your community’s leaders aren’t going to be quick to do that. They develop a plan early on, and once in motion they don’t want to change it. 

We compete as year groups and rest assured every year group in each community will have its top tier selected very early in their careers. It’s the nature of the system. Make sure you know where you stand in your year group. Demand that honest feedback. It’s harder to get than it should be. 

The shiny pennies might be ID'd, but it's a smaller group than you'd think.  Maybe one in a year group on a given wing, with some year groups having zero in the wing.

You probably won't break into the top 10%, CSAF-grooming level on your own.  But you can definitely break into the top 50%, DP to Lt Col on your own if you know what the rules of the game are.

[olevelo]

Does anyone have any insight into the AF Student MLR process, and what NO push lines look like? Are NO PRFs allowed to have strats from the previous SR on the push line? Just wondering how level the playing field is at the student MLR, and if that’s unsuccessful in pulling a DP, how the NO PRF’s stack up at the actual board.

Also, anyone ever write a letter to the student MLR?


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[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, olevelo said:

Does anyone have any insight into the AF Student MLR process, and what NO push lines look like? Are NO PRFs allowed to have strats from the previous SR on the push line? Just wondering how level the playing field is at the student MLR, and if that’s unsuccessful in pulling a DP, how the NO PRF’s stack up at the actual board.

Also, anyone ever write a letter to the student MLR?


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I had a narrative only PRF for my IPZ PRF.   All bullets, including the push line, were written by my losing senior rater.  The student MLR reviewed my records along with everyone else at school to decide P vs DP; that was literally all they did.  The board does not care whether your PRF is NO or originating from your senior rater.  

Hope that sheds some light on your situation.  

[osulax05]

NO push lines should read exactly like they would if the SR was able to give an overall recommendation. They absolutely can/should put whatever strat or remarks that are appropriate for your record. The only difference in the NO PRF is that the SR  uses the drop down menu to say no overall recommendation.

 

[soupafly06]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I'm suffering under no illusions as to what the true chance of success for a twice passed over guy is even with rumors of increased promotion opportunity.  This year the board decided to promote fewer IPZ and more BPZ so maybe that's an indicator of the future and shows that Big Blue prefers to take their chances on less experience and "greater" potential than more experience and average records.  I just say this as a caution that if you think an average or even slightly above average record without having all the boxes checked will get you promoted, the trend so far doesn't support it.

[celtic020]

21 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I had a narrative only PRF for my IPZ PRF.   All bullets, including the push line, were written by my losing senior rater.  The student MLR reviewed my records along with everyone else at school to decide P vs DP; that was literally all they did.  The board does not care whether your PRF is NO or originating from your senior rater.  

Hope that sheds some light on your situation.  

I actually asked an O-6 about this very recently.  I'm 1 BTZ this year and heading to Army CGSC in residence next year.  He said if you're in school with a NO PRF going up to the student MLR, as long as you don't have anything derogatory in your record, you will be promoted whether you receive a P or DP.  In-residence carries that much weight (which if you're in school in your IPZ look...your current duty title will indicate such).  I was somewhat concerned about it since I did not complete ACSC in correspondence....wanted to wait until I had my 3 looks for school before deciding to bite the bullet on that painful online experience.  

[Jetpilot]

6 hours ago, celtic020 said:

I actually asked an O-6 about this very recently.  I'm 1 BTZ this year and heading to Army CGSC in residence next year.  He said if you're in school with a NO PRF going up to the student MLR, as long as you don't have anything derogatory in your record, you will be promoted whether you receive a P or DP.  In-residence carries that much weight (which if you're in school in your IPZ look...your current duty title will indicate such).  I was somewhat concerned about it since I did not complete ACSC in correspondence....wanted to wait until I had my 3 looks for school before deciding to bite the bullet on that painful online experience.  

Is this for the upcoming O-5 board in March because it certainly was not the case for the last one.  I have at least a dozen examples that would state otherwise.

 

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Is this for the upcoming O-5 board in March because it certainly was not the case for the last one.  I have at least a dozen examples that would state otherwise.

 

Shows how broken the process is when a top 20% guy who manages to get a school slot doesn't make the top 75% of promotion-eligible officers.