Promotion and PRF Information

[matmacwc]

On 10/23/2019 at 5:44 PM, daynightindicator said:

 

8/13 board members will be rated officers in the “large board” (Air Ops category) from the slides I saw today.

 

Might as well move the board location to Nellis.  

[drewpey]

9 hours ago, dream big said:

As to the 5 year window? Won’t change much for your BPZ/HPOs, they’ll still get promoted early but maybe it will remove the stigma from APZ? And hopefully enable late bloomers.

Doing away with BPZ also does away with the limitations of only being able to promote a certain percentage of your shiny pennies "BPZ". I'd like to think it will iron out, but without the speed limit I have a feeling you will just see more HPOs promoted earlier, and using the extended promotion window to fix manning shortages once things settle down. I hope I'm wrong and there is less pressure to select our generals based off SOS performance.

[Seriously]

On 11/25/2019 at 5:38 AM, matmacwc said:

Might as well move the board location to Nellis.  

This will the be the next big problem to fix in the CAF... 

[jice]

6 hours ago, Seriously said:

This will the be the next big problem to fix in the CAF... 

Sorry, I’m dense. Could you elaborate? No sarcasm intended at all, just completely tumbleweed re: this line of comments. 

[GoodSplash9]

So I've got some different flavor questions regarding promotion to Lt Col on the Guard or Reserve side. I'm an 09 AD dude (10.5 years exactly right now) with my IPZ board in 2023 (yea, I'm tracking the new system about to roll out). Assuming results would drop mid/late 2023 and promotion increments would go through 2024.

• Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
• My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
• Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
• How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
• Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?

I know I'm kind of all over the place...thanks for any insight.

[abmwaldo]

23 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

 

• Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
  • If you're selected for promotion to O-5 on Active Duty, prior to ANG transition, then you've been "federally recognized" and would promote to O-5 as soon as there is a control grade available in your unit. I'm not sure on the "getting promoted after you're already in the Guard." 
• My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
  • In my unit, yes. We have 15x O1-O4 and 5x O5, including CC/DO, so it's purely arithmetic. That said, not all unit UMDs are the same so YMMV. 
• Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
  • In my Wing, ACSC is a requirement for promotion (ROPMA or PV) to O5 but it doesn't matter how/when you get it done as long as it's done before your package leaves the wing. 
• How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
  • As far as I can tell not much. I know several folks passed over for promotion to O4 or O5 on Active Duty that have promoted in the Guard. 
• Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?
  • Yes, that's actually the same for all officer ranks up to O5. ROPMA (Reserve Officer Promotion Management Act) For O4 it's 6 years TIG and then you promote the next year so you'd spend 7 years as an O4. The 6 years includes any time you spent as an O4 on Active Duty. For example, I joined the ANG with 1.5 years as an O4 and will ROPMA after 4.5 years in the ANG. There's some funkiness with the availability of a control grade after two years in the next higher rank but I haven't seen/heard that be a problem... Retirement rules/entitlements for an AGR are the same as Active Duty. You get your high 3; if you're a traditional or technician there are differences (major being you don't collect retirement until 62 and it's based on points).

ANGI 36-101 is the regulation that governs the AGR program. I've only been in the Guard for a little over 3 years (all as an AGR) so I'd be glad to assist when/where able. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by abmwaldo
Verbiage cleanup.

[14N Guy]

On 12/1/2019 at 12:18 AM, GoodSplash9 said:

So I've got some different flavor questions regarding promotion to Lt Col on the Guard or Reserve side. I'm an 09 AD dude (10.5 years exactly right now) with my IPZ board in 2023 (yea, I'm tracking the new system about to roll out). Assuming results would drop mid/late 2023 and promotion increments would go through 2024.

• Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
• My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
• Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
• How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
• Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?

I know I'm kind of all over the place...thanks for any insight.

I spoke with the HIANG about moving over from AD to a Guard position earlier this year and as soon as I told them I was 2x passed over they told me, Not interested/not worth doing the waiver for me as there were other folks that weren't passed over that were also interested in joining the HIANG.

 

Two caveats to my experience; its Hawaii, and I'm not rated, so YMMV

[MTC]

On 10/29/2019 at 3:59 AM, dream big said:

I envy you guys, hopefully that means a lot of mentorship for the young guys.  The best flying mentors I had were sunset Majors / Lieutenant Colonels with zero f$$$ to give.  In our corner of AMC, there are about 15 Majors in the OG with most at Group / Wing jobs.  

Nobody should have zero s to give.  If that's the case you need to exit service.  Let's end this narrative.  I get your point, and I hear this around the sq's, but as a community let's describe it in a more accurate manner, which fortunately is also more positive.  It will set the example to the younger guys in a more positive and accurate way.

[SurelySerious]

13 minutes ago, MTC said:

Nobody should have zero s to give.  If that's the case you need to exit service.  Let's end this narrative.  I get your point, and I hear this around the sq's, but as a community let's describe it in a more accurate manner, which fortunately is also more positive.  It will set the example to the younger guys in a more positive and accurate way.

BS. I have zero fucks to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by SurelySerious

[MTC]

12 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

BS. I have zero s to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

[SurelySerious]

11 minutes ago, MTC said:

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

That’s not what you said. 

[Duck]

This is getting confusing...


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[dream big]

9 hours ago, MTC said:

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

Words matter, I should’ve clarified “zero f$$$ to give” about the admin BS but will give their left nut to ensure the young guys are trained and equipped to go fly the mission. 

[celtic020]

Bringing it back to our circle....can confirm BPZ is going away.   The upcoming March O-5 board will remain with traditional 2BPZ, 1BPZ, IPZ, APZ but expect guidance from HAF/A1 shortly thereafter if not sooner.  

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, celtic020 said:

Bringing it back to our circle....can confirm BPZ is going away.   The upcoming March O-5 board will remain with traditional 2BPZ, 1BPZ, IPZ, APZ but expect guidance from HAF/A1 shortly thereafter if not sooner.  

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

[celtic020]

14 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

Dang — they’re actioning this quickly!  I’m IPZ 2020....don’t know if/how it affects the promotion rates.   Haven’t thought that far ahead but overall, I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  

[SFG]

3 hours ago, celtic020 said:

I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  

1IPZ or 5IPZ?

[Bigred]

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

So to quote the venerable Lloyd Christmas, ‘so you’re saying there’s a chance’.

[pawnman]

38 minutes ago, Bigred said:

So to quote the venerable Lloyd Christmas, ‘so you’re saying there’s a chance’.

Let's just say I'm still wearing my Iron Major patch.

[ThreeHoler]

Dang — they’re actioning this quickly!  I’m IPZ 2020....don’t know if/how it affects the promotion rates.   Haven’t thought that far ahead but overall, I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

[Sean00xj]

6 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

I was counting on walking from from Bonus commitment if passed over.  Does a 2APZ mean I now have to get passed over 3 times before I can walk?

[Seriously]

48 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

Change may be slow, but at least change is happening. Since I joined: Master's degrees are masked, we stopped picking school selects  at the O-4 board (everyone competes yearly now), you can decline school without prejudice (can turn down school after receiving orders without having to separate), 365s are on the decline (still more work to be done here), helmet art is back, sleeves can be rolled up, lots of civilian contractors have been brought (back) into the squadrons, etc. 

Can more be done? An unequivocal yes... there are so many other things that still need fixing, but things are changing. 

 

[SFG]

6 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.

Sub-cats will definitely change things. My prediction is less broad and more focused sub-cat officers... or more tribal and inbred if you want to see it that way.

Two-line PRFs will make it harder for folks with complex or poorly written records to get promoted as it is now the board’s job to read and decipher most of their record and, not that two lines are bad, but the strict rules for how the two lines are to be written does not allow SRs to repeat info already in the OPRs (that may be hidden or needs highlighted).

Overall, it will all help force retention, and by force, I mean force...but when they leave the door cracked folks will still escape.

[SFG]

5 hours ago, Seriously said:

Master's degrees are masked, we stopped picking school selects  at the O-4 board (everyone competes yearly now), you can decline school without prejudice (can turn down school after receiving orders without having to separate), 365s are on the decline (still more work to be done here), helmet art is back, sleeves can be rolled up, lots of civilian contractors have been brought (back) into the squadrons, etc.

Masters: Great so we’re going to kick out people who went the extra mile. Good idea. (better alternative is to have separate tracks... aviation-only vs strategic)

School selects: This was a good move in conjunction with new strat rules... would have liked to have seen this in my day.

Decline school: Why would you apply in the first place? So we’re only sending folks who get their way now? Perfect. Again... need two tracks.

365s: Need more data, as in, more than a slide with a few numbers saying they’ve decreased, but a slide per 365 that still exists to explain why it still exists and who is vulnerable. The rotating bills is also a great trick because each community can say they only have 5-10 365s to fill each year (you could be next!) oh and btw a few (20-60+?) that rotate between various communities (like roulette?).

Helmet art/sleeves: Who wasn’t doing this anyway?

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

We just can’t get enough of our boxes. Until we can think outside of them and handle that the best leaders might not check all of them, any changes we make will be superficial at best.

I love our Air Force so I hope we can turn this ship around. “Fingers” crossed for new SECAF to make some sweeping leadership/cultural changes.

[ThreeHoler]

Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.
Sub-cats will definitely change things. My prediction is less broad and more focused sub-cat officers... or more tribal and inbred if you want to see it that way.
Two-line PRFs will make it harder for folks with complex or poorly written records to get promoted as it is now the board’s job to read and decipher most of their record and, not that two lines are bad, but the strict rules for how the two lines are to be written does not allow SRs to repeat info already in the OPRs (that may be hidden or needs highlighted).
Overall, it will all help force retention, and by force, I mean force...but when they leave the door cracked folks will still escape.

Sub categories didn’t work out so well for Naval Aviators.