Promotion and PRF Information

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

Sub categories didn’t work out so well for Naval Aviators.

 

How many Navy four stars are aviators?

[Bigred]

6 hours ago, K_O said:

Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.

The FY-18 NDAA created the option for 5 years zones. My Google-fu is weak and I’m unable to find anything about it getting rid of the need for continuation if 2x failure to select, so perhaps a loophole?

 

 

[SFG]

20 minutes ago, Bigred said:

The FY-18 NDAA created the option for 5 years zones. My Google-fu is weak and I’m unable to find anything about it getting rid of the need for continuation if 2x failure to select, so perhaps a loophole?

“EFFECT OF FAILURE OF SELECTION.—In the administration of this subchapter pursuant to subsection (a)—
‘‘(1) an officer described in subsection (a) shall not be deemed to have failed twice of selection for promotion for pur- poses of section 629(e)(2) of this title until the officer has failed selection of promotion to the next higher grade the max- imum number of times specified for opportunities for promotion to such grade within the competitive category concerned pursu- ant to section 649d of this title; and
‘‘(2) any reference in section 631(a) or 632(a) of this title to an officer who has failed of selection for promotion to the next higher grade for the second time shall be deemed to refer instead to an officer described in subsection (a) who has failed of selection for promotion to the next higher grade for the maximum number of times specified for opportunities for promotion to such grade within the competitive category con- cerned pursuant to such section 649d.”

i.e. everything that talked about twice passed over previously, is now amended to ~”fails to promote in their [5 year] zone”

https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr5515/BILLS-115hr5515enr.pdf
 

loophole closed.  If you take the bonus and don’t get promoted you’re still committed through 4 more IPZ looks before continuation or getting out becomes an option.

[MTC]

7 hours ago, K_O said:

....

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

We just can’t get enough of our boxes. Until we can think outside of them and handle that the best leaders might not check all of them, any changes we make will be superficial at best.

I love our Air Force so I hope we can turn this ship around. “Fingers” crossed for new SECAF to make some sweeping leadership/cultural changes.

First, insert whatever socially acceptable "F the man" comments that will keep the Internet Police off my back.

But specifically to the civilians not being in the sqs, after being away for 3 years and returning to a mobility flying Sq, there are 4 civilians back in the sq to handle some of the worst jobs that were previously forced on aircrew, during the Do more with less years.  There's more to be done for sure, but at least that's a start.  So it's not just ACC.  The good fight will maintain more credibility if we can stick to facts.  

[SFG]

9 minutes ago, MTC said:

specifically to the civilians not being in the sqs, after being away for 3 years and returning to a mobility flying Sq, there are 4 civilians back in the sq to handle some of the worst jobs that were previously forced on aircrew, during the Do more with less years.

...So it's not just ACC. 

 Nice! That’s good to hear.

12 minutes ago, MTC said:

The good fight will maintain more credibility if we can stick to facts.  

Well... wrt to reflecting positively on the good fight that only works if the facts are positive, but yeah sticking to them is the best idea (along with noting alibis).

We need 65% bonus take rate to maintain a healthy force. We have 44% retention in an unhealthy force. Some communities have less than 32% retention. Not good. If the civilians are there, why isn’t that helping?

Since the fact is that the MAF is apparently full up on civilian help, how is AFSOC doing on the civilian front? If all the MAJCOMs are good to go why isn’t it having an effect on retention? Isn’t the idea that aviators get to aviate more supposed to keep people in? I would’ve killed for 4 civilians taking over admin queep.

[pawnman]

26 minutes ago, K_O said:

 Nice! That’s good to hear.

Well... wrt to reflecting positively on the good fight that only works if the facts are positive, but yeah sticking to them is the best idea (along with noting alibis).

We need 65% bonus take rate to maintain a healthy force. We have 44% retention in an unhealthy force. Some communities have less than 32% retention. Not good. If the civilians are there, why isn’t that helping?

Since the fact is that the MAF is apparently full up on civilian help, how is AFSOC doing on the civilian front? If all the MAJCOMs are good to go why isn’t it having an effect on retention? Isn’t the idea that aviators get to aviate more supposed to keep people in? I would’ve killed for 4 civilians taking over admin queep.

I think it will have an impact on retention, but it isn't overnight.  You're not going to take a guy with airline apps already in and TAPS already scheduled and convince him to stay with a civilian hire.  But if we can make life better for the folks at 6-9 years in, we can influence their decision in year 10+.

[FLEA]

11 hours ago, pawnman said:

I think it will have an impact on retention, but it isn't overnight.  You're not going to take a guy with airline apps already in and TAPS already scheduled and convince him to stay with a civilian hire.  But if we can make life better for the folks at 6-9 years in, we can influence their decision in year 10+.

You need buy in from commanders to change culture as well. With the civilian help it's easy for some bosses to feel like you have lots of extra time to start new projects as well. There needs to be a clear culture that you job expectations are focused around operations and execution and not building admin systems and queep. 

[Majestik Møøse]

On 12/7/2019 at 6:17 AM, K_O said:

Decline school: Why would you apply in the first place? So we’re only sending folks who get their way now? Perfect. Again... need two tracks.

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

I didn’t apply for school, but if I did it would’ve been to one of those foreign ACSC deals as a backup to what I primarily want to do. I would’ve appreciated the ability to say “no thanks.”

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

You need buy in from commanders to change culture as well. With the civilian help it's easy for some bosses to feel like you have lots of extra time to start new projects as well. There needs to be a clear culture that you job expectations are focused around operations and execution and not building admin systems and queep. 

True, but at least in my little corner of the Air Force, it's been a game-changer.  Civilian continuity in stan eval, training, UDM, and scheduling have improved the QOL in our combat squadron by leaps and bounds.

[SFG]

2 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

I didn’t apply for school, but if I did it would’ve been to one of those foreign ACSC deals as a backup to what I primarily want to do. I would’ve appreciated the ability to say “no thanks.”

Maybe I'm still thinking in the box in that my initial thought was that if someone applies to school they are applying to school in general, and their preferences are just that... but maybe you're right... the system in general is just too rigid and we should send best-fit folks to the right schools to get them the skills we require as opposed to using "school" as a reward.  With that line of thinking, maybe all Foreign DE schools should be filled with Air Advisors... folks apply directly to schools that benefit their specific development and career field.  But if we're talking current system, when I applied to school I did so knowing I might not get the school I preferred, kind of like when I joined the AF, went to UPT, etc.  Again, times have changed and I think we ought to look at the real world a bit more and see how future leaders out there are developed... surely it's not gambling, left up to chance, or throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks like we have been doing for years.  Thanks.

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, K_O said:

Maybe I'm still thinking in the box in that my initial thought was that if someone applies to school they are applying to school in general, and their preferences are just that... but maybe you're right... the system in general is just too rigid and we should send best-fit folks to the right schools to get them the skills we require as opposed to using "school" as a reward.  With that line of thinking, maybe all Foreign DE schools should be filled with Air Advisors... folks apply directly to schools that benefit their specific development and career field.  But if we're talking current system, when I applied to school I did so knowing I might not get the school I preferred, kind of like when I joined the AF, went to UPT, etc.  Again, times have changed and I think we ought to look at the real world a bit more and see how future leaders out there are developed... surely it's not gambling, left up to chance, or throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks like we have been doing for years.  Thanks.

In regards to a lot of those foreign schools or special oppurtunities, the majority of aircrew find out too late about them. I had realised after talking to a few of the people selected that many of those slots are filled by people who spent their whole career trying to get there. They are smart and write the entire story of their OPRs on what makes them ideal for that oppurtunity, the pick a master's degree tailored for that result, etc etc.... If you are just now deciding Korean ACSC is your tea when you are doing your school apps, you are too late. There is a dude that is 4/4 in Korean, volunteered 2 short tours there and has a master's in Korean Military History or something like that already. 

[SFG]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

In regards to a lot of those foreign schools or special oppurtunities, the majority of aircrew find out too late about them. I had realised after talking to a few of the people selected that many of those slots are filled by people who spent their whole career trying to get there. They are smart and write the entire story of their OPRs on what makes them ideal for that oppurtunity, the pick a master's degree tailored for that result, etc etc.... If you are just now deciding Korean ACSC is your tea when you are doing your school apps, you are too late. There is a dude that is 4/4 in Korean, volunteered 2 short tours there and has a master's in Korean Military History or something like that already. 

Most of the guys I know had no language, no prep, and were a bit surprised to get Overseas IDE. The majority did however put those schools somewhere on their list and had been GOs’ Execs and such. Maybe times are changing.

[AFsock]

Well, 5 year window/end of BPZ is AF Amn/NCO Official - https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/12/09/air-force-to-drop-below-the-zone-promotions-for-officers/

Any good RUMINT on 07-08 boards during the transition?

Edited December 9, 2019 by AFsock

[pbar]

On 12/8/2019 at 5:02 PM, FLEA said:

In regards to a lot of those foreign schools or special oppurtunities, the majority of aircrew find out too late about them. I had realised after talking to a few of the people selected that many of those slots are filled by people who spent their whole career trying to get there. They are smart and write the entire story of their OPRs on what makes them ideal for that oppurtunity, the pick a master's degree tailored for that result, etc etc.... If you are just now deciding Korean ACSC is your tea when you are doing your school apps, you are too late. There is a dude that is 4/4 in Korean, volunteered 2 short tours there and has a master's in Korean Military History or something like that already. 

I didn't have any of that and got Korean ACSC as a B-1 WSO.  The only thing I had going for me is my wife is Korean.  I know I beat out some prior enlisted Korean linguists; how, I don't know.  The F-15C guy that came after me had absolutely nothing to do with Korea and didn't even have any foreign schools on his IDE app.  And I think the F-16 guy after him had nothing to do with Korea either except a Kun or Osan tour under his belt.  My impression was that AFSC was more important than other factors.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by pbar

[SFG]

2 hours ago, AFsock said:

Any good RUMINT on 07-08 boards during the transition?

It’s terrible that we have people waiting for months with no heads up whatsoever and then this. Equivalent to flying along in a full pattern with tower trying to call you, but wait, you can’t answer because you’re still planning out the fine print of your approach and landing. Unsat. At least give people an idea about what you’re doing (months ago) so they don’t start breaking out.

But what’s done is done. Now don’t let our people hang while wondering if they’re even going to meet this board. These are people who may still be deciding whether to stay or go. Let’s not add another hundred to the shortage.

[Bigred]

2 hours ago, AFsock said:

Well, 5 year window/end of BPZ is AF Amn/NCO Official - https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/12/09/air-force-to-drop-below-the-zone-promotions-for-officers/

Any good RUMINT on 07-08 boards during the transition?

The Navy started merit based reordering last year. I have two friends that both screened for O-5 and squadron command. One guy ‘merit reordered’ to promote at the start of the new FY, the other didn’t.

 

Both were weapons school grads, had masters degree, and jpme-1 complete. Point being, a lot of squadron commanders (and the rest of us) were left scratching our heads on what was being used to define the merit reorder. It’ll be interesting to see what the AF uses.

[jrizzell]

Well, 5 year window/end of BPZ is AF Amn/NCO Official - https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/12/09/air-force-to-drop-below-the-zone-promotions-for-officers/
Any good RUMINT on 07-08 boards during the transition?

If you’ve seen the stats, one of the discriminators for people making General was being Below the Zone to O-5 and O-6. I’m curious how this works “upstream”.

Hopefully this whole shift is a change for the better...

[celtic020]

I don’t get it.  Will the board be able to tell whether you’re in zone or above the zone because on the PRF it’s the same check mark.  If it’s one giant 5 year zone, some good IPZ records will be victimized.  

[SFG]

27 minutes ago, celtic020 said:

If it’s one giant 5 year zone, some good IPZ records will be victimized.  

Yes. The idea is that better APZ folks get picked up.

Not that it’s perfect, but I agree with it and it actually makes sense for the AF. It does, however, suck for folks who might have been picked up IPZ in the old system, but may now have to wait five years if APZers continue to outperform (or out-record) them.

The question right now is if this  new IPZ window starts where BPZ or IPZ used to start.

[ThreeHoler]

Everyone seems to think somehow APZ will displace IPZ. It is not likely because most people APZ are not given strats or good pushes regardless of their performance. It will be less than a 1% change in the overall stats because the records just die after being non-selected the first time.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[jrizzell]

Everyone seems to think somehow APZ will displace IPZ. It is not likely because most people APZ are not given strats or good pushes regardless of their performance. It will be less than a 1% change in the overall stats because the records just die after being non-selected the first time.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

As an APZ guy, the vast majority of Commanders won’t waste their DP’s on us once we’ve missed our chance. I don’t know how this will change that...after you don’t get promoted, we unfortunately aren’t who leadership is focusing on anymore.

[17D_guy]

12 minutes ago, jrizzell said:

As an APZ guy, the vast majority of Commanders won’t waste their DP’s on us once we’ve missed our chance. I don’t know how this will change that...after you don’t get promoted, we unfortunately aren’t who leadership is focusing on anymore.

Well, I think some more strat rules will come as well as clear direction to the board.  That should help. God forbid the "leaders" actually rate those that are performing well and providing feedback.

Just had a Grp CC retire that was the epitome of the shit we've had to trudge through with the myopic "golden child" view for the past 15~20 years (maybe longer).  He had someone else's #1 come into the group and the rating Sq/CC said they were absolutely not performing worthy of a Group/Wing Strat.  Shit-bird didn't want to "impact his on-ramp" and got him a grp/wg strat.

I think about staying in and all of this getting figured out, and seeing where we go as a force.  The future is bright...but I'm really fucking tired, and I don't want to move.

[AFsock]

5 hours ago, K_O said:

Yes. The idea is that better APZ folks get picked up.

Not that it’s perfect, but I agree with it and it actually makes sense for the AF. It does, however, suck for folks who might have been picked up IPZ in the old system, but may now have to wait five years if APZers continue to outperform (or out-record) them.

The question right now is if this  new IPZ window starts where BPZ or IPZ used to start.

There's a slide deck out there that shows this year's 1BPZ meeting 1 year later and 2BPZ meeting 2 years later.  So it looks like a move to align eligibility periods to start when IPZ starts.

But we're still chugging along like '07/'08 are meeting boards this spring so who knows what the aimpoint is.

[Chuck17]

1 hour ago, AFsock said:

There's a slide deck out there that shows this year's 1BPZ meeting 1 year later and 2BPZ meeting 2 years later.  So it looks like a move to align eligibility periods to start when IPZ starts.

But we're still chugging along like '07/'08 are meeting boards this spring so who knows what the aimpoint is.

IPZ only, starting with the (now May scheduled) O5 board.... no more BPZ. 

And the Five year window (Once in place) starts on your fragged IPZ as well. 

These are big changes for the better for the service. Maybe we will gain some credibility in the joint world...

They are So big In fact that the way I heard it was the “Senior Statesmen” (retired four stars) started lobbying the CSAF to slow or reverse the train... because, by god the promotion system (which hadn’t changed this substantially since 1986) worked for them. They were told their input was welcome and appreciated, but the train has left the station (AKA decision-made...).

Chuck

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, jrizzell said:

 

If you’ve seen the stats, one of the discriminators for people making General was being Below the Zone to O-5 and O-6. I’m curious how this works “upstream”.

Hopefully this whole shift is a change for the better...

 

They already got rid of the "pole year" idea that someone MUST be a one star by 24 years of service.  Sounds like they finally recognized the vast majority of us will not be CSAF