Promotion and PRF Information

[ThreeHoler]

Sorry, can’t help with the non-offering/holding back of continuation, but as far as the 5-year promotion window, I don’t think that will be a factor for a bit. I got an email from the WG/CC that says “the USAF is not implementing the 5-look window for officer promotions for at least the next two years.”
Which I guess means that now you only get three looks for promotion?  Your former in the zone and 1 & 2 above the zone; I’m tracking that the next O-5 board will look at 07, 06, and 05 year groups. 
 
*with the caveat that the board is not supposed to use year group/time in service/time in grade as a discriminator (ie there are no more zones, just three looks) but who knows if the board really follows that. 

You continue to meet the board until you are no longer allowed to stay in (24 years as a Maj).


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[jazzdude]

I set up an appointment on Thursday morning with the wing king.
A retired AF officer approached me in a parking lot when I was wearing my bag a few weeks ago. He knows a certain NAF/CC. I $#@t you guys not. That NAF/CC hit me up via text and then he called me. He told me the NAF/CC for my Wg/CC will be receiving a phone call about my paperwork. Then he chewed me out for not doing PME...LOL
I feel so lucky. Thanks for assisting on this one guys.
What do you think might happen to me because a NAF/CC stepped in?
Me sitting outside the wing kings office and waiting for him to receive the call:
 

Sometimes those informal networks can resolve issues quickly! Pay it forward, if you know someone is having issues they can't resolve and you think you can help or have a connection that can help, offer it up.

The NAF/CC makes sure the Wg/CC is doing their job, so that call will not be a pleasant one as "taking care of airmen" is one of the CSAF's priories and the Wg/CC failed at that on what should've been a routine personnel action his office (and not a subordinate one) was directly reasonable for.

Don't go in with an "I told you so" attitude- they can still make your life difficult in the short term, same with your next assignment. Worth asking where to go career wise from him/her (though obviously they don't have a grasp on the whole continued thing) just to have something to discuss during that meeting.

Consider knocking out that PME-there's a lot of BS in there, but there is also some good stuff in there. It'll improve your chances APZ if that's what you want. Otherwise, it's a pretty clear signal that you don't care about being promoted. Though if you're good with not promoting and don't want to do it, great.

Which dovetails into the advice I got from my GP/CC when I got passed over: you don't have to play the game anymore. In a sense, you have more freedom to pursue what interests you in your career if you stay in. You don't have to check the normal career boxes of you don't want to continue advancing. Take advantage of that, and continue to improve your corner of the AF. As a pilot, you've got a highly marketable/valuable skill that is sought after-there are opportunities outside the AF as well (this was at the leasing edge of the airline hiring wave, though right now airlines probably aren't an option for a couple years at least). The AF wants you to stay, especially since we're sorry on pilots, but you need to do what's right for you and your family.

I ended up getting picked up for O-4 on my 1 APZ (though someone that board got picked up at something like 5 or 6APZ...), mainly because of the support from my Sq/CC pushing the Wg/CC to right what he saw was a mistake by the AF. I was fortunate to also get opportunities that got my career more less back on track (luck and timing). But those opportunities presented themselves because I put myself out there pursuing jobs I thought were interesting/rewarding

Best of luck to you!

[Guardian]

Don’t cancel. Never close the door on options. And more than likely he/she will use the meeting to discuss it. Give him/her the opportunity to tell you what’s up and be an honest broker.

Chances are they are right now thinking of that meeting as that. And not going to submit till meeting you.

[Guardian]

That can’t be legal

[ThreeHoler]

Those are not valid reasons. They have to initiate proceedings to remove you from the list.


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[jazzdude]

I hear you. The meeting was just moved from Tuesday to first thing on Monday morning as I am typing this out! So something may have transpired....
I was receiving mixed signals from him through his Executive Director. First, "he is going to be hesitant to sign it." After I pressed the issue, it morphed into he isn't going to sign it unless you are out of the wing by next summer. If we can't find you a PCA, assignment, or deployment he will not be signing it. I am still trying to figure out who I hurt for them to bring the "rain" down on me. 

He's holding your future career hostage to solve his perceived problems about you being in his wing. The PCA/ assignment/deployment caveat as their prereq to giving you the continuation notice points directly to this: "I want you out of my wing ASAP, and if I can't do that, I'd rather kick you out of the AF despite what is in the best interest of the AF (i.e. continuation)"

The Wg/CC does not offer you continuation, the promotion/continuation board does. All he can do is non-concur and recommend your removal from the AF. But as your senior rater, it falls on him to notify you of the board's decision to continue you and offer you continuation on behalf of the AF. Which is why your NAF/CC was probably pissed off at your Wg/CC and the process is starting to move again.

Tread lightly at your meeting, and I'd recommend not signing anything at that meeting, and taking any offers home with you so you can review it before signing (and so you can have the IG review it if you think you're getting an unfair or improper deal), which is completely within your right to do.

Document your interactions (when/who you spoke to in the Wg/CC's office). Reach out to the retired officer with the NAF connection for advice. Sounds like they were already willing to help.

Nuclear option would be to reach out to the NAF/CC, skipping the Wg/CC. Sounds crazy, but what are they going to do to you, so long as you do it in a respectful manner? Not promote you? Try to kick you out (sounds like your Wg/CC is kinda doing that already)? Can't give you a crap deployment either if you don't accept continuation first- you'll have a separation date mandated by law that overrides a deployment tasking.

Watch your timelines though, and realize we're headed for holiday season which means staffing slows down.

[panchbarnes]

So what did you do to piss off your Wing King?

Did you used to go by the username Shazaam?

Edited November 13, 2020 by panchbarnes

[jazzdude]

I think it boils down to the fact I am receiving flight pay and a bonus in a non-flying billet. It was okay when I was a DO in his wing though (hypocrite). I don't think the wing king or his executive director (ED) likes the fact that I get to eat my "AF carrots" before retiring. The ED kept asking me about my bonus and I just ignored him. It's none of his business. 

That's literally the whole point of the bonus, entice aviators to commit to staying in so they'd be available to fill staffs and non flying duties. It's also the point of flying gates and flight pay, to ensure the AF gets a good return on it's investment in your aviation career while allowing you to fill non-flying needs of the air force.

Good on you for not discussing your bonus status.

[ThreeHoler]

I think we’ve found Shazaam’s original account. Member since 2010 w/10 posts all on this thread.


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[Guardian]

I would audio record the meeting for future reflection.

[17D_guy]

45 minutes ago, Guardian said:

I would audio record the meeting for future reflection.

Agreed.  Done this, paid off in spades.

[BKANO]

On 11/12/2020 at 10:50 PM, MyCS said:

I set up an appointment on Thursday morning with the wing king.

A retired AF officer approached me in a parking lot when I was wearing my bag a few weeks ago. He knows a certain NAF/CC. I $#@t you guys not. That NAF/CC hit me up via text and then he called me. He told me the NAF/CC for my Wg/CC will be receiving a phone call about my paperwork. Then he chewed me out for not doing PME...LOL

I feel so lucky. Thanks for assisting on this one guys.

What do you think might happen to me because a NAF/CC stepped in?

Me sitting outside the wing kings office and waiting for him to receive the call:

 

Sorry about your situation. Not to sound like a dick or anything, but are you really expecting to get promoted without PME? The chances of that happening are extremely slim unless you have super strong performance reports. I know one got personally that got promoted without IDE, but he got a DP from a three star.....now four star. 

[BKANO]

Got a question i hope one of you can answer, are contractors allowed to determine stratifications and career vectors for active duty personnel? I would buy a civilian/GS employee potentially, but a contractor? That seems to me like a conflict of interest. It also negates the ability of active duty service members to advance or progress if you have a non-government employee who is in a permanent seat determining the future of personnel based solely on who he likes and doesn't like. It also hinders promotion ability for airmen if he places people in dead end jobs. The beauty about change of command is that you can potentially have a fresh start with a new boss. Something just feels wrong about this. There has to be some guidance for this somewhere in the regs. Thoughts?

Edited November 15, 2020 by BKANO

[FLEA]

29 minutes ago, BKANO said:

Got a question i hope one of you can answer, are contractors allowed to determine stratifications and career vectors for active duty personnel? I would buy a civilian/GS employee potentially, but a contractor? That seems to me like a conflict of interest. It also negates the ability of active duty service members to advance or progress if you have a non-government employee who is in a permanent seat determining the future of personnel based solely on who he likes and doesn't like. It also hinders promotion ability for airmen if he places people in dead end jobs. The beauty about a chance of command is that you can potentially have a fresh start with a new boss. Something just feels wrong about this. There has to be some guidance for this somewhere in the regs. Thoughts?

I'm 99.99% certain they are not. Only 99.99% because there is always the .01% bullshit case out there. But I was a COR for several years and it was very explicit in the training that contractors cannot supervise military members. In fact, I believe in the web software used for the official contract reports, it directly asks this question each month. Commanders are not always smart on contracts/contractors. They often are appointed in quality assurance roles but have the bare minimum of training on appropriate utilization. I would approach the COR/KO/JA about it and get their take. 

Edit: Are you able to provide more context? Because you used the word command as well. Under Title 10, only a commissioned officer can command. There are very specific authorities associated with command, I'm no means an expert at this but your situation is certainly interesting. 

Generally this works both ways as well. A member of the military member cannot tell a contractor to fire an employee because that employee performs unsatisfactory or does something grotesque. The only thing the military can do is provide a cure notice that the contractor is out of compliance with the contract and its up to the contractor to realize that replacing the employee will bring them back to compliance. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by FLEA

[BKANO]

9 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I'm 99.99% certain they are not. Only 99.99% because there is always the .01% bullshit case out there. But I was a COR for several years and it was very explicit in the training the contractors cannot supervise military members. In fact, I believe in the web software used for the official contract reports, it directly asks this question each month. Commanders are not always smart on contracts/contractors. They often are appointed in quality assurance roles but have the bare minimum of training on appropriate utilization. I would approach the COR/KO/JA about it and get their take. 

 

Thanks for the feedback flea. I think they are not also, but i don't have a reference AFI or regulation that implicitly states this is not permitted. I've learned that if you bring something up in the AF you need to have a reference that says this is not authorized or else you are screwed. Also, how do you go about highlighting this?, especially if those contractors/individuals are connected with IG and leadership already. Many people have said this is unethical and a conflict of interest, but when they make any slight mention of it they are quickly shown the door to a closet or dead end job like asst flt/cc of the mobility shop as a senior Major right before their O5 board. Got a friend thats been trying to PCS from his base but is not in good graces with this contractor and has been stuck there for over 11 years. Unofficial/sidebar word from his leadership is that so-and-so stopped your PCS. Just looking for a reference pub or best form to approach this. 

[pawnman]

50 minutes ago, BKANO said:

Sorry about your situation. Not to sound like a dick or anything, but are you really expecting to get promoted without PME? The chances of that happening are extremely slim unless you have super strong performance reports. I know one got personally that got promoted without IDE, but he got a DP from a three star.....now four star. 

I don't think he's trying to get promoted.  He's just trying to sign continuation paperwork so he isn't forced to separate in April/May (180 days after the board results).

[BKANO]

5 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I don't think he's trying to get promoted.  He's just trying to sign continuation paperwork so he isn't forced to separate in April/May (180 days after the board results).

oh ok copy. Jumped on the thread late, been a while since i logged on here. Hope you doing good Pawnman congrats on your promotion. You still got a while before pinning right? You started AWC yet?

Edited November 15, 2020 by BKANO

[pawnman]

Just now, BKANO said:

oh ok copy. Jumped on  the threat late. Been a while since i logged on here. Hope you doing good Pawnman congrats on your promotion. You still got a while before pinning right? You get started on AWC?

I have not gotten started on AWC.  Not sure if I'm going to...retiring as an O-5 is perfectly fine for me.  Not sure I see much point in it...Might hold on to that card to play when I'm in a higher OPSTEMPO job.  "Sorry boss, I can't do X, Y, and Z, I'm really swamped with AWC right now..."

[FLEA]

7 minutes ago, BKANO said:

Thanks for the feedback flea. I think they are not also, but i don't have a reference AFI or regulation that implicitly states this is not permitted. I've learned that if you bring something up in the AF you need to have a reference that says this is not authorized or else you are screwed. Also, how do you go about highlighting this?, especially if those contractors/individuals are connected with IG and leadership already. Many people have said this is unethical and a conflict of interest, but when they make any slight mention of it they are quickly shown the door to a closet or dead end job like asst flt/cc of the mobility shop as a senior Major right before their O5 board. Got a friend thats been trying to PCS from his base but is not in good graces with this contractor and has been stuck there for over 11 years. Unofficial/sidebar word from his leadership is that so-and-so stopped your PCS. Just looking for a reference pub or best form to approach this. 

I believe it is the DoDi's or GSA pubs. I'll try and find it tonight if I can. 

[BKANO]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

I have not gotten started on AWC.  Not sure if I'm going to...retiring as an O-5 is perfectly fine for me.  Not sure I see much point in it...Might hold on to that card to play when I'm in a higher OPSTEMPO job.  "Sorry boss, I can't do X, Y, and Z, I'm really swamped with AWC right now..."

That makes sense. Good card to hold onto. I might keep that in my back pocket. 

[BKANO]

1 minute ago, FLEA said:

I believe it is the DoDi's or GSA pubs. I'll try and find it tonight if I can. 

thanks flea, its appreciated. 

[FLEA]

5 hours ago, BKANO said:

thanks flea, its appreciated. 

Its in the FAR's (Federal Acquisition Regulations) I believe this is the right reference, but I'm not a KO. 

I would take this to a KO and get an opinion. 

Basically subpart a1 prevents contractors from supervising military members on services contracts. The exception to this is "incidental to training." This is why blue suiters can write grade sheets on you in UPT. They cannot write your 475 when you finish training though. 

 

 

Quote

 

17.603 Limitations.

      (a)Management and operating contracts shall not be authorized for-

           (1)Functions involving the direction, supervision, or control of Government personnel, except for supervision incidental to training;

           (2)Functions involving the exercise of police or regulatory powers in the name of the Government, other than guard or plant protection services;

           (3)Functions of determining basic Government policies;

           (4)Day-to-day staff or management functions of the agency or of any of its elements; or

           (5)Functions that can more properly be accomplished in accordance with subpart  45.3, Authorizing the Use and Rental of Government Property.

      (b)Since issuance of an authorization under 17.602(a) is deemed sufficient proof of compliance with paragraph (a) immediately above, nothing in paragraph (a) immediately above shall affect the validity or legality of such an authorization.

      (c)For use of project labor agreements, see subpart 22.5.

 

 

 

[BKANO]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Its in the FAR's (Federal Acquisition Regulations) I believe this is the right reference, but I'm not a KO. 

I would take this to a KO and get an opinion. 

Basically subpart a1 prevents contractors from supervising military members on services contracts. The exception to this is "incidental to training." This is why blue suiters can write grade sheets on you in UPT. They cannot write your 475 when you finish training though. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Flea. I'm going to do some more digging, but you gave me a good vector for now. I appreciate it. 

[jazzdude]

Thanks for the feedback flea. I think they are not also, but i don't have a reference AFI or regulation that implicitly states this is not permitted. I've learned that if you bring something up in the AF you need to have a reference that says this is not authorized or else you are screwed. Also, how do you go about highlighting this?, especially if those contractors/individuals are connected with IG and leadership already. Many people have said this is unethical and a conflict of interest, but when they make any slight mention of it they are quickly shown the door to a closet or dead end job like asst flt/cc of the mobility shop as a senior Major right before their O5 board. Got a friend thats been trying to PCS from his base but is not in good graces with this contractor and has been stuck there for over 11 years. Unofficial/sidebar word from his leadership is that so-and-so stopped your PCS. Just looking for a reference pub or best form to approach this. 

You cannot have a contractor as your rater or additional rater. Must be an officer or civilian of equal or higher grade to you. Here's the reference:

AFI 36-2406 OFFICER AND ENLISTED
EVALUATIONS SYSTEMS

1.5.2.1. Raters.
1.5.2.1.1. For officers. The rater will be an officer of the U.S. or foreign military, or a civilian of equal or higher rank or grade than the ratee. (T-1).

1.5.2.2. Additional Raters.
1.5.2.2.1. For officers. The additional rater will be an officer in the U.S. or foreign military or a civilian serving in a grade equal to or higher than the rater, and in a grade higher than the ratee. Exception: An O-6 of the U.S. or a foreign military service may be the additional rater for an O-6. (T-1).

1.5.2.3. Civilian Additional Raters.
1.5.2.3.1. For officers, a civilian additional rater must be in a civilian grade equal to or higher than the rater.

[BKANO]

28 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

 

 

You cannot have a contractor as your rater or additional rater. Must be an officer or civilian of equal or higher grade to you. Here's the reference:

AFI 36-2406 OFFICER AND ENLISTED
EVALUATIONS SYSTEMS




 

 

Hi Jazzdude,  the situation i provided is not that the contractor is the rater on anyones performance report; however, they are involved/making career impacting decisions--i.e.; determining assignments, stratifications, jobs, and career vectors for active service members. A contractor should not be involved nor providing recommendations nor suggestions as to whether or not you should be released for a staff assignment, or if you should or should not receive a stratification. I also think also not be involved in the  development of performance reports for airmen. That is the situation.