Promotion and PRF Information

[disgruntledemployee]

32 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

1) In my time in the AF, I was rarely surprised that those who got passed over for O-4 were passed over…

2) To be a Captain (or soon to be) and get picked picked up for UPT means they most likely had a solid record to begin with…my bet is the percentage of late to rate (pilots) Captains getting passed over for O-4 is much lower than those in their original career fields, as well as their non-late to rate fellow pilots.

3) The UPT ADSC is to go to pilot training and become a pilot, that’s it.  Promotion is definitely not a gurantee, and if said potential late to rate officer is concerned about promotions (though see point above), my advice for them is to focus not on becoming a pilot, but being the best officer they can be and getting promoted in their original career field.

4) The AF is not hurting for qualified candidates to go to UPT…if fewer non-rated officers want to become pilots, then it’s not much of a loss IMO.

5) It’s the AF, and it’s far from anything we all think is “fair” in our own minds.  If we’re going down that rabbit hole, I’m sure I got quite a few people beat, willing to discuss offline.

6) They signed up to serve, meeting the minimum standard isn’t that hard.  And if they really want to get out, there are ways to do it.

#2.  Every late rate I knew made Maj.  I think being competitive for boards meant they had good early career paper to make Maj, even Lt Col.

#6. There's almost always a waiver to anything.  And there's always an O-3 figuring a genuis way out.

Lastly, with this change, it will create a larger pool of salty dogs with a reduced/no filter, which isn't a bad thing.  There is a place for a career PILOT in this AF.

[HeloDude]

9 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

A comittment which 9 years ago was signed with the up or out rules in place. Why does one side get unilaterally modify that contract after the fact?

Is this a serious question?  And the contract was to go to UPT and become a pilot…promotion/retention laws/regs had nothing to do with it.  Rules always change while you’re in the military, nothing you agree to says they have to remain static while you’re in service.

[illusive]

45 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

1) In my time in the AF, I was rarely surprised that those who got passed over for O-4 were passed over…

2) To be a Captain (or soon to be) and get picked picked up for UPT means they most likely had a solid record to begin with…my bet is the percentage of late to rate (pilots) Captains getting passed over for O-4 is much lower than those in their original career fields, as well as their non-late to rate fellow pilots.

3) The UPT ADSC is to go to pilot training and become a pilot, that’s it.  Promotion is definitely not a gurantee, and if said potential late to rate officer is concerned about promotions (though see point above), my advice for them is to focus not on becoming a pilot, but being the best officer they can be and getting promoted in their original career field.

4) The AF is not hurting for qualified candidates to go to UPT…if fewer non-rated officers want to become pilots, then it’s not much of a loss IMO.

5) It’s the AF, and it’s far from anything we all think is “fair” in our own minds.  If we’re going down that rabbit hole, I’m sure I got quite a few people beat, willing to discuss offline.

6) They signed up to serve, meeting the minimum standard isn’t that hard.  And if they really want to get out, there are ways to do it.

I don't think anyone is arguing the Air Force is fair or that its not a service.  I think people are concerned that this is not a good policy over the long run due to a poor incentive structure and it suddenly taking effect rather than being phased in.  Its like playing a game of chance except if you lose you get trapped for years on end.  It's not a fun game.

I also think people are trying to highlight the chaotic nature of how even if you do the right things you can still end up with a losing hand.  People are skeptical of that until it happens to them, and then they get it.  The people who it doesn't happen to tend to stay in longer and overstate how the Air Force is a meritocracy, but that is just survivorship bias.

I know of multiple late rates who did not make Major and I am trying to guide them through the process of their second look.  Some stuck at PIT, some stuck in UPT which now takes 15 months in some cases, some I don't even know why... they were IPs with no derogatory information, checked every box, strats, etc. I watched a group exec get passed over whose only sin was failing out of F15C course and I've watched a person who tried to step to a jet intoxicated on deployment get promoted in the same board.  It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe they drop 40 white jets on your base at once and you get stuck at PIT forever, maybe someone messes up your paperwork, maybe the T-6s are so broken you get stuck there for years without a job, who knows? 

The saying "luck and timing" would not be as common as it is today if it wasn't partially true.

[Smaggy]

This made me laugh. I’m exactly the captain who was late to rate (more time in my previous career field/ AETC than as a Pilot) and currently in PIT (been here for over 6 months). I highly doubt I will make major and was really banking on getting out. I’m fcked

[Boomer6]

I loathe AFPC and the promotion structure. However, the taxpayer deserves to get their money's worth for the cost of UPT etc.

If there are late to rates banking on not doing 10, sucks to suck. Shoulda went guard. 

Edited December 10 by Boomer6

[the g-man]

10 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

I loath AFPC and the promotion structure. However, the taxpayer deserves to get their money's worth for the cost of UPT etc.

If there are late to rates banking on not doing 10, sucks to suck. Shoulda went guard. 

Boy you’re sure a boomer.

 

remember that the Navy only has 6 year pilot training commitment.  They bone their aviators in different ways though to ensure “retention”

[Lord Ratner]

8 hours ago, HeloDude said:

So they’ll suddenly become shitty pilots because they’re passed over and have to fulfill the commitment they agreed to?

In your experience were the pilots facing their second board to Major primarily flying airplanes?

[illusive]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

I loathe AFPC and the promotion structure. However, the taxpayer deserves to get their money's worth for the cost of UPT etc.

If there are late to rates banking on not doing 10, sucks to suck. Shoulda went guard. 

I agree with you, but when things are extraordinarily inefficient in an attempt to keep the same structure alive it makes you wonder if the measure of success is how many slots did we fill or something else? 

I've seen people who specialized in a mission set for years be sent to teach t-6s against their will while at the same time someone at the same base who requests to go back is sent to the first persons desired assignment. 

At my base I watched a person in process post qual and begin out processing within 2 months because their ADSC was up (they were only 1 of 2 evaluators at their last squadron), they too were sent their against their will. I watched someone who had never flown fix wing before show up, barely make AC, but had over 3000 hours of rotary and requested to fly at minot after they did a service transfer.

I think what the feelings of frustration are stemming from a grossly inefficient system that tends to find the simplest solution to problems rather than the best long term ones. I don't think solutions are more centralized control, I think decentralized solutions yield better results and giving more control to lower levels.  Otherwise the system becomes increasingly impossible to properly manage.

[Boomer6]

Pure failure of leadership at the squadron level, in my experience at least. I've seen the same absolutely idiotic decisions because sq/cc's didn't know their ppl, ignored their desires (even when it made sense), or outright used the vml to punish ppl they disliked.

AFPC leadership owns plenty of blame. The bros at the porch have been bailing like crazy after that assignment. Based on what they say about AFPC leadership I don't blame them.

[illusive]

15 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Pure failure of leadership at the squadron level, in my experience at least. I've seen the same absolutely idiotic decisions because sq/cc's didn't know their ppl, ignored their desires (even when it made sense), or outright used the vml to punish ppl they disliked.

AFPC leadership owns plenty of blame. The bros at the porch have been bailing like crazy after that assignment. Based on what they say about AFPC leadership I don't blame them.

I'm not sure what the porch is.  Maybe things were better when you went through or if you've been around awhile or maybe its a particularly bad stroke of luck on my part. 

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think over time more and more control and more intricate process are centralized out of the Sq CC hands.  I've seen some great ones, but when they need to ask layers of people to turn off assignments, swap, etc. its too much. It seems like squadron commanders are increasingly coordinators instead of decision makers, but again that is off topic.

[Bigred]

On 12/10/2024 at 1:21 AM, the g-man said:

Boy you’re sure a boomer.

 

remember that the Navy only has 6 year pilot training commitment.  They bone their aviators in different ways though to ensure “retention”

The 6 year commitment changed to 8 years about 20 years ago. 

[the g-man]

4 minutes ago, Bigred said:

The 6 year commitment changed to 8 years about 20 years ago. 

8 is still less than 10.

[Bigred]

20 hours ago, the g-man said:

8 is still less than 10.

The math checks out