disgruntledemployee Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 You do know the DP % for O-4 is 75% and for O-5 is 55%, right? Nope. Didn't bother to look it up and I relied upon old-man memory. It seemed like the DP rate used to be less or that I've seen some decent dudes that didn't make the list. With that, those current rates seem fair. Out
billy pilgrim Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 I was BSing with another pilot in my unit this weekend and he mentioned that you might be able to fix some of this if you allowed UPT to count for an AAD. It's a year long "graduate" program with written tests and practical exams. I think it's a good idea. Well, all these pilot AAD shenanighans are probably helping guard and airline recruiting. 45% seems crazy low for a pilot with SOS and no masters.
DC Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) 45% seems crazy low for a pilot with SOS and no masters. It's 45% for SOS and no AAD and P. It's actually 86% for SOS and no AAD overall (75.6% of SOS and no AAD still get DP). For CY11, if you went to SOS, not having your AAD reduced your promotion chances from 98% to 86% (by decreasing your chance of DP). Edited March 18, 2013 by DC
Muscle2002 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I was BSing with another pilot in my unit this weekend and he mentioned that you might be able to fix some of this if you allowed UPT to count for an AAD. It's a year long "graduate" program with written tests and practical exams. I think it's a good idea. Well, all these pilot AAD shenanighans are probably helping guard and airline recruiting. 45% seems crazy low for a pilot with SOS and no masters. It's not a horrible idea, however, I wonder how difficult it would be to attain accreditation.
JeepGuyC17 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I was BSing with another pilot in my unit this weekend and he mentioned that you might be able to fix some of this if you allowed UPT to count for an AAD. It's a year long "graduate" program with written tests and practical exams. I think it's a good idea. Well, all these pilot AAD shenanighans are probably helping guard and airline recruiting. 45% seems crazy low for a pilot with SOS and no masters. The shoes would never let it happen.
Muscle2002 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 The shoes would never let it happen. Agreed. Also, the academic rigor of UPT is more akin to ERAU or TUI distance learning than other graduate programs. If they approved UPT for degree accreditation, then similarly long FTU courses might also...ultimately, some shoe would whine about it not being fair.
HU&W Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 It's not a horrible idea, however, I wonder how difficult it would be to attain accreditation. Probably not too tough. Just have AU or AFIT create a 'companion' online program that matches and complements the UPT curriculum. I actually like the idea, but it would be seen as another 'unfair' pilot bennie by the nonrated side.
DC Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Hoss, I'm with you. The promotion rates are pretty high. Most dudes are gonna make it. And AAD, SOS, etc. don't tell the whole story. AFPC perpetuates the BS by publishing the numbers broken down by PME and AAD (and nothing else). They are the ones turning it into a numbers game and leadership does nothing to fix that perception among their people. While we're on the subject of Commanders...you bring up the no-frills push notes that go with OPR/PRFs. Those are great. Usually tell the no-kidding story. Good AND bad. That's the kind of stuff that gets a dude into a wing or group exec job or shuffled into a dark hole somewhere. Wouldn't it be great if THAT was the performance report? We wouldn't give a shit about all these PME and AAD numbers. Why is it we're so afraid of giving honest negative feedback? If the Sq or Group CC will say it up the chain, why not down? 1
Tank Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I agree with the comments from Hoss and DC, but why would you WANT to be the squadron or group exec? Because you get to write OPR's and decorations and plan Christmas Party's. I don't know about you but when I was going through UPT, all I wanted to be was an exec and flying was an after thought... 1
JS Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I was BSing with another pilot in my unit this weekend and he mentioned that you might be able to fix some of this if you allowed UPT to count for an AAD. It's a year long "graduate" program with written tests and practical exams. I think it's a good idea. Well, all these pilot AAD shenanighans are probably helping guard and airline recruiting. 45% seems crazy low for a pilot with SOS and no masters. So you guys were wanting Undergraduate Pilot Training to count as a Graduate work? Wouldn't we have to rename UPT to PT, then? Oh, wait, that acronym is already taken. Just kidding - not such a bad idea, only I can already see the shoes complaining about it not being fair, and then everyone else's technical schools somehow counting for graduate credits, thus watering down the system even more.
HU&W Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Just kidding - not such a bad idea, only I can already see the shoes complaining about it not being fair, and then everyone else's technical schools somehow counting for graduate credits, thus watering down the system even more. I don't see why they shouldn't. Every enlisted tech school course gives some amount of CCAF credit. When I first came in, I got 42 hours of undergrad credit for my 8 month school. There really shouldn't be a problem with AU or AFIT doing a course equivalency review on the various schools and providing transcripted credit for the equivalent courses/hours completed. Some of the longer schools may even provide sufficient credit equivalency to meet the requirements for a degree.
zach braff Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I know I got some masters credit in leadership/mgmt for SOS in-res from my shady for-profit school. As a comm/cyber guy I think some schools give credit for our new cyber training too but I don't have any techie degrees that would do me any good for. You'd think an embry-riddle could give a buttload of credits for UPT (except if you give too many credits it's not too profitable to the schools)... Somebody should put the question up to AETC. Oh yeah, back on track. As a commander's lackey I built a brief using these statistics on AAD & SOS and stuff before but my boss was good to point out that they are useful only after job performance is looked at (read: the strats & push notes the CC's push up to the Wg/NAF/etc are the most valuable). However, the simple fact is in a lot of cases the guys who are kicking ass in the squadrons are also the guys who know the game and are able to get their PME & AADs done. So as stated above - if you're not a #1 or #2 but want to get promoted - AAD & PME are a good way to 'statistically' increase your chances. zb
pcola Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) WTF, Hoss? ....if you hope to get a DP? Really?? ....What on earth leads you to think that? It's a 75% DP rate. 75%. If you think 75% of all Captains meeting a Maj board are UPT/SOS DGs and/or Gp/Wg Execs, you're on crack. What I said was: if you don't have your AAD at least 6-9 months before your board, at most Wings, you'd better have some strong contributors (UPT/SOS DG, OG/Wg exec w/the strats that go with it) if you hope to get a DP. It can be done but not the path I'd necessarily recommend to the young'ns. Are you pulling a media stunt and selectively quoting to strengthen your argument? Of course 75% aren't DGs/Execs, but at my base, in my unit, the only guy I know of to get a DP without an AAD had those qualifiers. Edited March 18, 2013 by pcola
Vetter Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 At my base where I passed over last year, no AAD = P. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. 1
farva Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Because you get to write OPR's and decorations and plan Christmas Party's. I don't know about you but when I was going through UPT, all I wanted to be was an exec and flying was an after thought... Did you forget to log out???
dream big Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Because you get to write OPR's and decorations and plan Christmas Party's. I don't know about you but when I was going through UPT, all I wanted to be was an exec and flying was an after thought... One of our weapons school guys and best instructors was also the wing exec, granted he was voluntold but I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive.
moosepileit Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Being a group or wing exec would show you the inner workings of the life of an O-6 up. Including the impacts with their families. Since it is no longer acceptable to have a goal of maxing out as an O-5 Sq/CC any longer, seeing behind the curtain for more than a glance is a good thing. When I started 20 years ago, that was a fine goal- whether shoe or wearing wings. That has changed. My .02. I was a Group exec as an O-3, right when the Comm Officers' career field lost their traditional broadening exec assignments/PCAs. It would be interesting to see what folks do AFTER having been an exec above the Sq level. I bet they rocket up or rocket out with few between.
brabus Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) One of our weapons school guys and best instructors was also the wing exec, granted he was voluntold but I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive. Pretty sure sarcasm detector is code 3. Edited March 18, 2013 by brabus
TheFranchise Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Excellent points. Couple more food for thought stats zooming in on pilots In regards to pilots, DP and No AAD % of DPs with no AAD 2011 29.2 2010 37.1 % of Pilots with DP, no AAD 2011 39.2 2010 55.7 Now compare just those pilots without an AAD % of Pilots with no AAD that got a DP 2011 69.9 (315 individuals) 2010 68.8 (409 individuals) % of Pilots with no AAD, SOS in res who got a DP 2011 75.6 2010 74.5 While pcola makes some valid points I think they are hyperinflated assumptions based on his unit (sts). No way did the majority of those 315 people last year were all SOS DGs and Wing Execs. I would venture to say almost none of them were execs since they tend to vett those positions to those who check boxes early. I'm with HOSS on this.
TheFranchise Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 I think a fair solution would be making UPT + RTU/FTU the equivalent of a BAC+ through Air University. The 3 years of training should at least get your 1/2 way to your degree and you have 5 more years to finish it.
Gravedigger Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) You guys might seriously be on to something. I doubt it will ever come to fruition, but a new college grad going to law school is the same thing as a new college grad going to UPT. So would Army Warrant Officers get a bachelors degree or masters after completing their flight training? In all seriousness, some of our space courses are accredited and count towards masters credits. We have a SrA that has 6 hours of masters credits for Advanced SATCOM and Advanced Orbital Mechanics and doesn't have CCAF yet. The solution would be getting each phase of training accredited and then you would only be left with a handful of courses remaining by the time you were CMR. I don't think any school, including Air University would say that UPT is equivalent to a complete degree program, but it should get you pretty damn close. ETA: I just realized I have been a baseops member for 9 years as of today. Damn. Cheers! Edited March 19, 2013 by Gravedigger
Ravens52 Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Because then you'll have 'new guys' to the Wing competing with 'Homesteaders". It kind of happens now. The only saving grace is past performance...oh wait, no one looks at that anymore. Rock Bottom Line (I just wanted an excuse to say that): Don't be the new guy at your Wing when PRFs are due. Timing is everything.... Checks! And who you know...
Vetter Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Also, don't volunteer for VSP 6 months before your PRF is due. 3
TheFranchise Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 How X AFB ranks its officers. Check box in excel, sort total column, issue DP/P PRIMARY AFSC QUALS EVALUATOR - CURRENT/PREVIOUS 1 INSTRUCTOR - CURRENT/PREVIOUS 1 PT TEST PT TEST - EXEMPT 1 PT TEST - <75 0 PT TEST - >75 0.25 PT TEST - >80 0.5 PT TEST - >85 0.75 PT TEST - >90 1 PT TEST - >95 1.5 PME ASBC 0.5 SOS COR 0.75 SOS RES SELECT 0.5 SOS RES 1 SOR COR & RES 1.5 ACSC COR 0.75 ACSC COR & RES 1.5 ACSC RES SELECT 0.5 ACSC RES 1 EDUCATION MASTERS DEGREE (NO REGARD TO DEGREE TYPE/LOCATION) 3 BAC+ DEGREE (NO REGARD TO DEGREE TYPE/LOCATION) 1 STRAT HISTORY (PREVIOUS & CURRENT) WING STRAT - CURRENT 2 WING STRAT - PREVIOUS 1 GROUP STRAT - #1 2 GROUP STRAT - #2 1 GROUP STRAT - #3 0.5 PRIMARY BOARD YEAR PRIMARY BOARD YEAR : THIS YEAR 3 PRIMARY BOARD YEAR : THIS YEAR + 1 2 PRIMARY BOARD YEAR : THIS YEAR - 1 -1 PRIMARY BOARD YEAR : THIS YEAR - 2 -2 DEPLOYMENT HISTORY DEPLOYMENTS - >2 (NO REGARD TO DAYS DEPLOYED) 2 DEPLOYMENTS - >4 (NO REGARD TO DAYS DEPLOYED) 3 DEPLOYMENTS - 1 (NO REGARD TO DAYS DEPLOYED) 1 SPECIAL DEPLOYED - CAOC/MC12/DEPLOYED POSITION/ 1 JOBS (PREVIOUS & CURRENT) EXEC - SQUADRON 1 EXEC - GROUP 1.5 EXEC - WING 2 EXEC - MULTIPLE 2 FLIGHT CC 1 DO - CURRENT JOB 0.5 DO - PREVIOUS JOB 1 STAFF LEVEL - JOINT 2.5 STAFF LEVEL - AIR STAFF 2 STAFF LEVEL - HAF 2 STAFF LEVEL - NATO 2 STAFF LEVEL - MAJCOM 1.5 STAFF LEVEL - NAF 1 STAFF LEVEL - OTHER 1 AWARDS & PROGRAMS AWARDS - (DG, GROUP/WING, MAJCOM, AF) (4 MAX) 4 SPECIAL PROGRAMS - WIC/PHOENIX REACH&MOBILITY/ASAM/SAAS 1.5 LANGUAGE DLAB 0.5 DLBT 1 ADMINISTRATIVE ADMIN DETRACTORS (Q2/Q3/LOC/LOR, ETC) -1
Jaded Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 Holy Shit. There are so many things wrong with that. Reminds me of how nuke base ORIs used to give equal weight to the condition of the base laws and the nuclear readiness of the flying squadron.
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