Mid Phase Busts

[Guest guardhopefull]

Well wouldn’t you know it I had solid flight only to screw up my ground EP. Sure sucks blowing an 88 ride on just an EP. Anyways all is back to normal but I was just curious if midphase is really about a 50% bust rate at UPT? The student rumor is that they look to bust folks on the midphase more so then on the last three checks. Is there any partial truth to this? Its tuff separating student rumors/interpretation from the honest truth.

By the way if anyone has good suggestions on how to setup EP’s please pass it along. Iv tried using the little cheat sheets but they are not always helpful. Since we are so understaffed we don’t get many stand-ups during the week. And I don’t know if its just me but each EP experience seems significantly different depending on what IP is giving it. Thanks

[Gas Man]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, You don't get many stand ups during the week?!?!?! I prayed for that same thing when I was going through. Looks like god waited until after I had finished to answer my prayer. Are you complaining?

As far as the mid-phase check our class had a 37% pass rate. The average was around the same for the rest of the squadron. Final contact was 75% pass, Inst was about 45%, and form was 95%. Don't sweat it too much. I will say however that the EP on the ground is really the part of the check that you have the most control over. Our Flight commander got the most mad at the guy in my class that hooked due to his EP. As OZ(If you are at Vance find OZ and ask for help, he is still there) used to tell us, the point of the EP is to punish the IP. You should take your time and read every note warning and caution and in between each one you should make sure you are maintaining aircraft control by ensuring you have the proper pitch and power setting and by asking the IP if you are able to maintain this. If you take less than 30 minutes on an EP you haven't punished the IP enough for having the audacity of asking you in the first place. Remember, don't sweat the petty stuff, just pet the sweaty stuff.

[Guest Clemsonpilot]

better than busting for pubs...

[Guest hockeymv]

Well, we had 12 studs in my tweet flight and had 5 total hooks thru all of Tweets. 3 of them were on Midphase. However, the class ahead of mine and behind mine 'supposedly' had about a 50% pass/fail rate. But, take that FWIW.

[GW]

Ok as a grad of Class 03-13 my wings are way too shiny and new for me to be typing the first four words in my rant, but here we go anyway:

Back in my day we had standup all the time during the 30 day program, and then at least 3 times a week there after (or at least that's what I remember). Much like Kipp I prayed to just about every god I could think of to remove this painful and excruciating process from the program (and sometimes I think even the IP's were praying for the same thing).

That being said I also know that I learned more about keeping a cool head and managing the EP during those 0430 Stand-ups than I ever did by trying to memorize the -1. I find it hard to imagine how I or anyone else could hope to pass a ground eval while looking down the barrel of a check ride without practicing the damn thing 4000 times in the flight room. To say nothing of handling an actual no shit EP in the air.

If that's really what's happening, than the AF is doing you and every other Stud in the pipeline a HUGE disservice.

GW

[Champ Kind]

GW,

As a current Tweet stud, I can tell you that it has not changed (at least not in my flight). We had standup everyday during the 30-day program, and continue to have standup at least 3 times a week.

[Gas Man]

Originally posted by BeerMan:

Also...are you refurring to OZ as in Major Oz...

The one and only.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by BeerMan:

KIPP hit the nail right on the cranium. The key to UPT EPs especially on a checkride is to bore the hell out of the check pilot. Read every applicible NWC, and do everything that you would in the jet verbatim. When they want to speed you up they will. Checklist discipline is key as well, in fact, have solid checklist discipline might even save you from a bust. I had trouble with this early in UPT, I always wanted to jump right into the problem and show the IP that I knew what to do, but often would get ahead of myself. Go slow to speed up...it works!

Cheers,

BeerMan

AMen to this, and I'm sorry to all those SEFE types but I have never seen the wisdom in some of the busts for these REDICULOUS ground evals.

Borders on the same line of thought that comes and goes with BOLDFACE, is it intent OR actual comma's, periods, was that an extra "S" on the end type BS. I can understand setting a standard but some evaluators are "off the charts".

To illustrate I will tell ANOTHER Snake story about my "second time through PIT in 97 in the T-38. My first check was the simple qual check in the jet. The "slick" wing, Captain AND prior A-10

SEFE (I was a Major with 19 years USAF and way over 10000 pilot hours) was a good guy BUT had drank a "full pitcher" of the AETC koolaid.

My EP was an engine failure caused by birstrike at Seguin (aux field for T-38). No other problems

AND no other pilots on board (of course) another

IP doing T&G's by himself at Sequin (never happened there in those days).

Due to construction at Seg, they were landing NW, RND landing SE (2 fields are 13 miles apart). This check took place shortly after a C-21 (I think) crashed with a GO onboard and it was determined that the pilots overflew at least one "useable" field trying to get to destination, where they crashed just short (I think Maxwell). Soooo, THERE WAS A W.O.M. put out by some GO with 3000 hours in many airplanes, last one flown several weeks ago and then not very often (he doesn't fly much, you get the pic). NO ONE WOULD OVERFLY A USEABLE FIELD IN AN EMERGENCY...........ie Seguin,

good advice, BUT "useable" is the operative word here.

Back to my EP, I hit bird (of course no-flap, by myself etc etc) power is up, so I do Boldface flawlessly, as written in stone. THEN, I asked the Capt, am I on fire? No, he says, I say GOOD!

I'm going to RND! His eyes GET REAL BIG, as I expected them to. I complete the EP, live, airplane ok, wrote it up, blah blah blah.

Then he asks me, "WHY DID YOU GO TO RND"? I said, I knew you would say that and here is my reasoning. I have "heard" about this WOM but IT IS NOT IN MY PINK PAGES OF MY IFG OR IS IT IN THE FCIF, to me it is still "in development". The term "useable field" is open to interpretation,

I currently have a wreath around my wings and you don't, that means I have alot of FLYING experience you may not have. Furthermore, in my REAL job I have heard 1000's of takeoff briefs from very senior pilots some of which have been Captain's over 30 years, suffice to say they mention things I have never thought of that are pertinent to a TO EP. I will now recite my concerns with Seguin in THIS EP.

You told me I was by myself, this situation couldn't happen and student training IS NOT a factor since T-38's didn't do AUX Fields in UPT and I would not be NO FLAP unless an EP AND I would be one approach, full stop (rules back then for IP's by themself). Anyway, I "GAVE" myself a similar EP in the SIM and by the time I had done all your checklist and contacted evryone that wanted to know, I was 17 miles on downwind. What tacan freq do I put in for Sequin (no tacan), what visual ref is there for the 17 mile point (there isn't one), what about vectors from approach, (can't get them, I'm talking with an RSU controller, no radar), how about the precision approach I would like to fly single engine, (can't do it, there isn't one at Seguin, NO ILS), how about EP's on the ground,

where is there better crews and equip? RND has MORE TRUCKS AND PEOPLES! Sequin had a glorified squirt gun for a truck.

Bottom line, I justified my point that in this EP, Seguin was not a "useable" field, that judgement came from MANY YEARS and HOURS and no WOM by ANYONE would override that. My closing line

was, if you or anyone else doesn't like this answer, here are my wings, I quit and I'm going back to work...............there were no questions. I heard it "went" all the way to the 3000 hour NAF/CC, (I think he made the WOM) that had "no comment".

Sorry I rambled on, but for the new guys, there

is a reason "they" give checks the way they do,

your mission, is to fill your "clue bag" with clue's as fast as possible, your life may depend on it one day.

[Guest spar91]

dang snake, i didn't know you were that old!

:eek: :D ;)

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by spar91:

dang snake, i didn't know you were that old!

:eek: :D ;)

Seems I have heard that before.........

Wouldn't add my 2 cents if I still didn't kind of

have my hand in the business.

[Guest guardhopefull]

Originally posted by KIPP:

Hold on, hold on, hold on, You don't get many stand ups during the week?!?!?! I prayed for that same thing when I was going through. Looks like god waited until after I had finished to answer my prayer. Are you complaining?

No complaints but I felt way out of my league when I was given an EP by the checkpilot. It finally occurred to me that one reason for the EP’s in the flight room are to prep us for the checkride. At midphase I had only been stood up once in class. My flight is so undermanned its not even funny. Two assigned IP's for 15 studs during 4 of 7 weeks. Yep XL is apparently hurting that bad. They won’t even buy us a flight room printer cartridge right now money is so tight (probably a whole different issue). Anyways we were probably getting 3 standups a week and we were very sheltered and spoon-fed compared to the checkride EP. Granted I should have gone through more checklists and tried to” bore" the guy to death as mentioned, so it was definitely my fault on that. But I’m just now understanding (in week 8) how to run through the checklists in an EP scenario. No excuses, I busted it, but now I have to play catch up cause Final Contact is two weeks away. The hardest part for me is trying to knowing how to sequence all the events such as stating boldface, applying it, running through checklists, reanalyzing, and doing any non vital stuff such as radio calls. I’m all for stalling and boring them but I’ve seen some IP's start a timer when you are done with "analysis" to simulated that time started again and you only have so many minutes (based on the EP scenario) to get things done. I may be way off but the standardization on EPs is confusing. Thanks for the hints though.

[Murph]

Originally posted by KIPP:

The one and only.

[Flare]

Just slightly under 50% of my current class busted their mid-phase checkride (here at ENJJPT we call it the C9). Overall, I would say that a 50% average is a little high.

[ 21. August 2005, 22:47: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[Rocker]

Stand up and the checkride ground eval EP process has almost nothing to do with EPs or training for EPs. It has ONLY to do with gamesmanship and being graceful while being harassed. I used to get timed occassionally also, and if I described what I was doing at a certain time (in excruciating detail), the response (from select IPs) was, "do you really think you have time to be doing all that?" The answer is "hell no." You fly the plane, figure out WTF is wrong, fix it if you can (and do your applicable BF properly), talk if you have time, and get on the ground. But that's not what they want. And Air Force UPT EP "training" is all about doing what "they" want you to do. Learn the game, and play it. I've obviously never been an IP, so I don't know, maybe it is more than just part of the Student Harassment Program and is a valuable training tool. But I don't think so.

[Gas Man]

GR hopeful,

Sounds like you have the right idea, I'm sure you will pick up on the "gamesmanship" as Rocker stated above. The biggest problem is that your future depends on the IP as much as it does your performance. If an IP has a major problem with you he/she can hook you no matter how well you fly. It is all a game that you must learn to play. I am pretty sure that most of the IPs out there don't take pleasure in giving you the taco. Try not to force their hand to the best of your ability, and just do your best. You'll do fine.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by Rocker:

Stand up and the checkride ground eval EP process has almost nothing to do with EPs or training for EPs. It has ONLY to do with gamesmanship and being graceful while being harassed. I used to get timed occassionally also, and if I described what I was doing at a certain time (in excruciating detail), the response (from select IPs) was, "do you really think you have time to be doing all that?" The answer is "hell no." You fly the plane, figure out WTF is wrong, fix it if you can (and do your applicable BF properly), talk if you have time, and get on the ground. But that's not what they want. And Air Force UPT EP "training" is all about doing what "they" want you to do. Learn the game, and play it. I've obviously never been an IP, so I don't know, maybe it is more than just part of the Student Harassment Program and is a valuable training tool. But I don't think so.

This is pretty accurate............gamesmanship is the word. Keep reading and quoting until they start puking.........just make sure it's the right check list.

[Guest rotorhead]

When I was a student (pterodactyls were sharing the airspace) I was getting grilled by my dedicated FAIP:

FAIP: You are sitting on Echo Pad at the end of Cairns AAF, about to take off on an instrument sortie. You notice N1, N2, NR increasing along with engine/rotor noise. WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO???!!!!

ME: Roll the throttle to idle.

FAIP: What do you think is happening?

ME: The engine is overspeeding, probably due to a fuel control failure.

FAIP: Is ENGINE OVERSPEED a boldface???!!!

ME: Yes.

FAIP: What's the boldface????!!!

ME: I can recite it to you, but I'm not doing the boldface in this case.

FAIP: IS THIS AN ENGINE OVERSPEED????!!!

ME: Yes.

FAIP: IS ENGINE OVERSPEED A BOLDFACE????!!!

ME: Yes, but I'm not doing it, because it is STUPID to maintain NR with collective, yank the collective up to place me 20 feet over the trees, then roll the throttle to idle, enter manual fuel, etc. when I can simply roll the throttle to idle on the ground...making a ground emergency into an air emergency is STUPID, and I'm not doing it.

FAIP: YOU'RE NOT FLYING TODAY, AND YOU'RE GOING TO VISIT THE FLIGHT COMMANDER!!!

The flight commander pops in, and motions to see me in the hall. He tells me: You're exactly right, the IP is wrong, and I'll have a chat with him. Go have a fun flight today.

[Flare]

You can get FAIPed to helos?

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

AMen to this, and I'm sorry to all those SEFE types but I have never seen the wisdom in some of the busts for these REDICULOUS ground evals.

Borders on the same line of thought that comes and goes with BOLDFACE, is it intent OR actual comma's, periods, was that an extra "S" on the end type BS. I can understand setting a standard but some evaluators are "off the charts".

I will disagree with you on this one Snake. I’ve only busted one person for a ground eval and it was well deserved. I would never bust a bro because he spelled a word wrong it put a period in the wrong spot. However, I have done a ground eval and as we statrted talking systems, it became blatantly clear that this person did NOT know the aircraft. I am not talking about obscure trivia like the only edible part of the aircraft, I am talking about basic system function and proper ways to handle an emergency, i.e. which system to turn on/off.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

I will disagree with you on this one Snake. I’ve only busted one person for a ground eval and it was well deserved. I would never bust a bro because he spelled a word wrong it put a period in the wrong spot. However, I have done a ground eval and as we statrted talking systems, it became blatantly clear that this person did NOT know the aircraft. I am not talking about obscure trivia like the only edible part of the aircraft, I am talking about basic system function and proper ways to handle an emergency, i.e. which system to turn on/off.

[ClearedHot]

Snake,

I was never an ATC/AETC EP (thank god), I was a SEFE for an Operational Wing and my picture was always calibrated on sending folks into combat. I was always known as a Santa Claus, except when it came to stuff that could get you or those around you killed. I always had a few hip pocket questions that would force folks to look into the regulations and think about what they were doing, i.e. Trouble-T, TOLD, Munitions Limits. In the case I spoke about earlier, the pilot getting the check ride finally looked at me and said “I don’t know”, when asked what system to use in an emergency. That person was upgrading to mission ready Aircraft Commander and had zero clue about half the systems on the aircraft. Unacceptable in my mind, but that is just me.

[Guest spar91]

SEFE??

[ClearedHot]

SEFE = Stan Eval Flight Examiner

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

Snake,

I was never an ATC/AETC EP (thank god), I was a SEFE for an Operational Wing and my picture was always calibrated on sending folks into combat. I was always known as a Santa Claus, except when it came to stuff that could get you or those around you killed. I always had a few hip pocket questions that would force folks to look into the regulations and think about what they were doing, i.e. Trouble-T, TOLD, Munitions Limits. In the case I spoke about earlier, the pilot getting the check ride finally looked at me and said “I don’t know”, when asked what system to use in an emergency. That person was upgrading to mission ready Aircraft Commander and had zero clue about half the systems on the aircraft. Unacceptable in my mind, but that is just me.

I understand...............I never considered a few pertinent systems questions from an A-10 SEFE

a "ground eval", just the EP portion of the brief.

When you walk in to a guys office and spend 2 hours "building the jet" like airline orals/anals,

can be AND most if not all the info is AVAILABLE

either in mission planning or in the A/C, my BP starts to rise fast. I have NO PROBLEMS with general systems/ep's/procedures questions as long as the Evaluator has alot of time for me to PROPERLY answer their question!(gamesmanship)

[Jkarl]

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

I could think they would ask and made it into IFG to attach to my leg. It was about 6 inches thick. When I walked in, his EYES got real big, I told him if he wanted me to MEMORIZE baseops, I had it on my leg,

So is it fair to say that anything that's in your inflight guide (i.e. aircraft systems diagrams, procedures) is fair game for GK or a tabletop ep, during a checkride?