USMC/Marine Aviation

[Murph]

Update - the Marine jet draft is over. It's just as competitive to go jets as in the Navy.

[Guest rotorhead]

Everyone should love what they fly...with that disclaimer made...now listen carefully:

I've flown USAF helicopters for 20 years, and have NEVER heard ANY USAF helicopter pilot say he wished he were flying starchwings instead..Ever.

It certainly could be different in the other services...but not in my USAF experience.

[Guest roy moore]

I have been fly USMC 130's for almost six years. I have also done the Marine FAC tour experience. The previous replies have been accurate from my perspective. Infantry is very hard to get as a fallen flyer unless you really lobby for it. Expect to kick boxes or answer phones for three years. It is possible for intel lately, though.

The USMC is a small service that feels fluctuations in highly trained job specialties much more readily than other services. Fixed wing Jet and Herc guys are rarer than helo guys and when they start getting out...the belt gets tight. In the USMC, most guys have been to Iraq and Afghanistan 2-3 times on 6-7 month rotations since 02. Couple that with a civilian job market that searches for highly qualified personnel and you can see why it is hard to keep talented, highly trained professionals. This is a problem in helos, jets, hercs, and highly trained ground MOS's (ie ATC, force recon, law, intel, etc)probably in all services.

I think Marine pilot wannabes just want to fly. People develop desires most often in primary flight. Sure, there are lifelong Maverick wannabes and lifelong dedicated Cobra guys, but for the most part guys find or are given their niche and they come to love it. It beats a desk job anyday. USMC Helos fly exciting missions and profiles. Doors off UH-1 nap of the earth rides at CAX come to mind. Marine Jet guys fly a variety of missions. Although, a priority is put on CAS tactics. My own platform has no less than seven missions and has taken me around the world many times.

There are better services for certain aircraft. ie You want heavy lift=Air Force. When I signed the line in the mid nineties, drawdowns were going. Only the USMC was hiring pilots who were not from elite commissioning sources. The Marines gave me a job and it has been fun. Remember, a contract is between two parties. They guarantee you will go to Navy Flight, but you guarantee that you will remain fit to fly. The service needs you as much as you need them. If you break your ankle or poke your eye out at TBS and become permanently medically disqualified, you no longer hold your end of the deal up. Why then would the USMC subject a potential aviator to career threatening injury at some grunt school? Because you are a Marine first and then a pilot. Do all of us aviators in the Corps believe it? Maybe not. The important thing is that we accept it because the Corps believes it. This comes in the same territory as out of cockpit pilot/grunt tours, staff jobs, and bad deals. I have probably have 2/3 cockpit time and 1/3 bad deals (out of 130 time). 4 years cockpit and 2 years out of cockpit, out of flight suits. My fellow 130 brethren at similar time of winging in the USAF probably have close to 2k hours now while I am at 1.3k hours. If you are about the logbook only, you could be disappointed. Marine flying will always support Marine ground ops. It is a life of second best, but, I can attest, they Marine ground pounders never forget the sacrifices their aviators make for them. That makes the difference.

[Guest WildBill]

What's also nice is the Marine helo draft is over as well, get what you want by qualifying for what you want, it's actually a pretty simple deal.

[Guest aaronbrann]

I have been pouring over many of the posts on this site for hours and hours, and am learning a great great deal... thank you for that. I have not however seen a recent post on the marine's pilot program. do they still have the guaranteed slot through PLC program? I couldnt find it through "marines.com"

[Guest msmith16]

I talked to a recruiter about it not too long ago and as far as I know thats still the deal. It guarantees pilot training to "qualified" applicants, so dont think they will just give it to you. Talk to a recriuter though, they're always way more than willing to answer your questions (and rope you in), so be careful.

and best of luck

Striker

[Login Name]

yeah they do as long as you meet the requirements...they will not guarentee your airframe though,just the opportunity to fly.

[Guest Spitfire]

Yes the PLC "guaranteed pilot" program is still an option, I'm working on my package right now. Selection is competitive but not overly so. PM me with specific questions about it, I'll be glad to answer. Also check out airwarriors.com (if you can stand the screwy layout), it focuses on Navy/Marine aviation.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Guaranteed if you make it through OCS, TBS, "NAMI Whamy", API, and pilot training. That's a lot of hurdles to get over, but certainly not impossible. I wouldn't be telling you this if I did not speak from experience.

[Guest waxgoblin]

and what happens if you trip on any of the hurdles?

[Login Name]

Originally posted by waxgoblin:

and what happens if you trip on any of the hurdles?

your ass will be carrying a m-16 looking for derkas in iraq....actually infantry is the hardest to get so you'll probably be a finance or logistics officer. but hey, you're still a marine right?

[Guest F152 Pilot]

Although you will be guaranteed to go to pilot training in the USMC, remember a couple of key points. You have to want to be a marine first, they are all riflemen first and you will spend about a year training for this before you start flying (my little brother starts this after graduating with the PLC program in a few months). They are way more hardcore in this type of training than us, and you had better want it bad before you start. Secondly, remember that even if you do ok in flight school, they still might not need you in the end and could just drop you. (but I guess this isn’t too far off from the Air Force). And last, if you want to go career remember that most Marine officers don’t make it to Major, and far fewer make it to even Capt. then in the Air Force. This is because they are highly selective of who they want keep around. They are not nearly as top heavy as the Air Force.

[Riddller]

Originally posted by F152 Pilot:

You have to want to be a marine first, they are all riflemen first and you will spend about a year training for this before you start flying (my little brother starts this after graduating with the PLC program in a few months). Secondly, remember that even if you do ok in flight school, they still might not need you in the end and could just drop you. (but I guess this isn’t too far off from the Air Force). And last, if you want to go career remember that most Marine officers don’t make it to Major, and far fewer make it to even Capt. then in the Air Force.

Uhh... out of curiosity, how much time do you have in the Marines? First, The Basic School (TBS) is six months long, not a year. Second, if you make it through UPT, be it AF or Navy version, nobody is just going to 'drop you'. Third, the reason fewer Captains are made in the Marines vs. AF is there are like 10 times more officers in the AF! The promotion rate to Capt., by percentage, is the same in every service. If you can fog a mirror, don't get a DUI, don't shag the General's daughter, etc..., and do a halfway decent job, you'll get Capt. As for Major, that's all time and job specific, similar to the AF.

All initial training sucks, its just something you have to get through, in any service. I never met an officer who regretted doing whatever it was he was doing, in any service. Many may get out after their commitment because its just not for them, but I'd be willing to bet even they would say they wouldn't trade their time in the service for anything.

EDIT: The promotion discussion was NOT taking into account specific force reduction measures, i.e. the thousands of Lt's currently getting booted from the AF

[ 27. April 2006, 11:16: Message edited by: Riddller ]

[Guest F152 Pilot]

Just want to clarify a few things here.

First. As of right now, with all of the training they have to go through, AND including waiting time, it does take about a year to get to flight school in the Marines. (This is comming directly from a Marine with 4 years in, not me.)

Second, if you make it all the way through training YES they can still drop you. It can and does happen. It happened to a few people I know, they were let go after about a year in flight school, not because of academic failure, but because they decided that they just didn't need that many people to fly at the time. I am not sure how common this is but I know it did happen (they did however get around $30,000 to seperate)

Third, Your chances of getting through the ranks in the Marines are a lot harder than in the Air Force. This is for a couple of reasons. First of all, the Air Force has a lot more rated positions requiring officers, therefore having a larger number of officers as well as a larger oppertunity for promotions. The Air Force has 19.1% officers, and the Marines are 9.4% officers. And secondly, it's because the Marines are generally a younger force. The average age of a Marine is about 3 years less that somebody in the Air Force. Because of the mission they do they desire younger people to fill the positions, and there is less chance to stay in after the initial commitment is up. (this statement is comming directly from a Marine 0-6 I heard speak 2 weeks ago, not me) Finally, another factor that affects Marine promotion is that they actually have to be selected for O-3, where the Air Force is just based on time in service.

If you are trying to decide to be a Marine or Airman, there are good and bad things on both side. Talking to people on both sides is a good way to get a feel for what you are getting yourself into.

Now for my personal opinion. I made my decision to Join the Air Force after growing up in a Marine family. Both my dad and brother are Marines. They both love what they do. They helped me decide to go into the Air Force after a lot of talks, but the thing that made me want to join the Air Force most is the fact that they made fun of it constantly. They are always making fun of the AF because we stay in nice air conditioned hotels while they are sleeping in a ditch somewhere. My dad refers to the AF as a flying club. They also make fun of me because all of the AF facilities are so nice compared to what they have. Hmmm... lets think about this for a minute. It all depends on what you want. The Marines are definitly hard core but the Air force on the other hand definitly has its perks.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

As of right now, with all of the training they have to go through, AND including waiting time, it does take about a year to get to flight school in the Marines.

Depends on timing and how many others are waiting ahead of you.

Second, if you make it all the way through training YES they can still drop you. It can and does happen. It happened to a few people I know, they were let go after about a year in flight school, not because of academic failure, but because they decided that they just didn't need that many people to fly at the time. I am not sure how common this is but I know it did happen

I suppose if you did not make the minimum NSS to get winged, never received a down, yet never performed spectacularly either, then it may happen. Very rare though. I would imagine there is more to the story with these individuals that you may not know about.

Both my dad and brother are Marines. They both love what they do.

What are their jobs? Where are they stationed?

[Guest F152 Pilot]

Little brother lives in Vegas and is in the reserves as infantry. Graduated PLC last year and is now getting ready to pin on 2Lt. and eventually go to flight school. Dad is a former Cobra pilot out of Camp Pendleton (HMLA-169) then went reserves.

[Guest rtstolwo]

I recently found out that I may be DQ'd for the AF PRK waiver. However, with my numbers, I would qualify for Army, Marines and Navy. I've always wanted to fly airplanes in the military, I wanted the AF because they seem to have the lifestyle that I wanted. I decided against the Navy because living on a boat 6 months a year really doesn't appeal to me. I would rather fly airplanes than helo's so the Army is a last resort. Does anybody know how much time Marine pilots will spend on a boat (outside of deployment)?

[drewpey]

The navy has planes that don't stay on the boats, fyi. Not sure if that would have any effect on the competitiveness of getting said planes.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Don't even bother applying to the Marine Corps. You don't have the right attitude for it. It's not all about you and what you want, so stay away and save yourself from embarassment.

[ 08. June 2006, 21:17: Message edited by: BigIron ]

[Guest rtstolwo]

Thanks for the info. I guess I should have pointed out that I want fighters. I wanted the 15, but now with the insight on my pre-op #'s it looks like the 18 is my only option (that is assuming I end up lucky enough to get the exact airframe I want). This actually brings another ? to mind...Do the Navy and Marines give priority to assignment choices based on class rank like the AF? I always assumed they did but have never heard it said.

[ 08. June 2006, 21:21: Message edited by: rtstolwo ]

[Guest rtstolwo]

Originally posted by BigIron:

Don't even bother applying to the Marine Corps. You don't have the right attitude for it. It's not all about you and what you want, so stay away and save yourself from embarassment.

Damn, that didn't take long at all. I figured I would get a reply like this. I understand that "it isn't all about me", and that is not my attitude at all. I want to fly fighters in the Military because I know that I have the skills to be a damn good pilot (top of my class in ISU's flight program). My dream mission is flying close air support and keeping a bunch of infantry guys from dying. Please do not go talking about my "attitude" like you know something about me, I don't want to live on a boat because I want a family life (selfish, I know). My original question still stands and I would really appreciate some genuine input on it.

And before I get any posts saying that civilian flying is totally different than military flying and "top of class" there does not equal "top of class" in a military program, I am very aware of this. However, ther reasons for my class rank are transferable to a military program, and they are hard work and dedication to whatever I do.

[GreasySideUp]

My Marine buddy hornet drivers got qualed on the boat and then never saw it again. Not sure if that is the norm. Class ranking plays a huge part in selection. Check Airwarriors.com for more reliable info. they have a great forum over there for gold wing types.

Good luck and don't give up. Don't sell yourself short on the AF yet either until they've told you no a few more times.

-j

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

I decided against the Navy because living on a boat 6 months a year really doesn't appeal to me.

They're not out on a boat for 6 months out of every year. There are deployment cycles that are unpredictable in this day and age.

I would rather fly airplanes than helo's so the Army is a last resort.

Better make the Navy and Marine Corps your last resort as well then because they are both about 60-65 percent helicopters. Do the math...

Does anybody know how much time Marine pilots will spend on a boat (outside of deployment)?

Depends. Can't predict that very well either.

The navy has planes that don't stay on the boats, fyi.

So does the Marine Corps. KC-130s, EA-6B Prowlers, F/A-18D, possibly the Osprey, but you don't want to fly those because they aren't a "JET".

This actually brings another ? to mind...Do the Navy and Marines give priority to assignment choices based on class rank like the AF?

If it is what is good for the Corps, then yes. If not, then you will get what is good for the Corps based on the needs of the Corps.

Before you even get to this point you have so many hurdles to get over. I would bring your scope in much closer and take things one at a time before you step on your crank.

Get an aviation slot through PLC, OCC, ROTC, or the Naval Academy. Then, if PLC, OCC, or ROTC, make it through OCS in Quantico, VA. without getting broken. Then make it through TBS without taking a stick in the eye on night land navigation in 0% illumination, or breaking yourself on the double obstacle course or the 20 mile forced march with 70-80 pounds on your back. Then make it through the "NAMI whammy" flight physical when you check in down at MATSG at NAS Pensacola. Then make it through API without failing anything. Then make it through primary with a high enough NSS and slots available for Strike if that is still what you want at that point. Then make it through the intermediate/advanced stage of said pipeline. Then make it through the FRS of selected airframe after winging (yes, they still attrite people out the the FRS). Then don't step on your crank after getting to your first squadron and getting surgically removed and sent somewhere else.

See what I'm saying about narrow your scope a bit?

[ 08. June 2006, 22:06: Message edited by: BigIron ]

[Guest rtstolwo]

Thanks for the actual info BigIron...as for all that stuff regarding the road I have in front of me, I am well aware that it is not going to be easy and in a way that kind of appeals to me. I plan to dive into this head first with nothing but pure devotion, and if I pull only that much off the only thing that could stop me are the flight physicals. It is my mindset that nothing will slow me down accept a medical DQ (crosses fingers) and if the Corps (or whatever branch I end up in) decides to put me in anything but fighters then so be it, but it won't be because I didn't do everything possible to be the best that I possibly can.

[Guest rapier01]

You'll also have to get a good PFT score and ASTB score for the USMC program. The Corps doesn't let physical fitness slide. Pull-ups, crunches and 3 mile run.

Marine fighter squadron are integrated into carrier air wing s a lot of times nowadays, so I'd be prepared to go deploy on a carrier.

Essentially, the USN and USMC program is the same once you get to flight training. With the Navy there is just OCS you have to get through, but with the USMC you'll have to get through USMC OCS (much harder physically, but both have USMC DIs) and then TBS before going to Aviation Preflight Indoc and the tracks pretty much are the same from there on in.

Either way, it's not going to be easy. Even if you go Navy, Navy OCS isn't a picnic either.

Also like Big Iron mentioned, the majority USN/USMC pilots fly helos and it'll all up to the needs of the service.

[ 08. June 2006, 22:23: Message edited by: rapier01 ]