holding

[Guest someatcguy]

TheBurt made a good point from another thread; that being we were getting into a topic that did not have to do with the original topic. With that said...holding came up as a topic, and I have to admit that I do not hold at all as a private pilot, and very, very rarely do I send someone to the penalty track. With that said, is it often that commercial airliners or military, doesn't matter, ever hold. And do you only hold to a) fulfill the FAR requirement, or B) teach something to a young pup.

This thread may be pointless, but I believe, holding to be a thing of the past (think NDB) due to extension of runways, larger airports (gates to park a/c), greater attention of controllers to get the a/c on the ground, etc. Let me know where I am wrong. Thanks.

[Guest sickels101]

Holding is most definitely not a thing of the past. Maybe you don't do it for your listed reasons but it does happen. For flying into Guam/Diego or any island base we are required to have reserves for "loiter" time which is holding in lieu of an alternate. We hold for "emergency" situations when we want to burn gas. For overcrowding, I can think of only a handful of times and those were at pilot training. Usually at the home base we do it for checking the square.

[ 27. April 2006, 21:25: Message edited by: SoNotToSpeak ]

[Bergman]

I would counter your argument of "holding is a thing of the past" by asking you to fly into Atlanta's Class B on a Friday night around 7pm with bad weather in the area. Planes will be stacked to the moon in holding patterns. I imagine most large civilian airports are the same way.

My impression is that ATC is reducing some of this with their flow control procedures. Perhaps some of our more savvy airline guys can explain those in better detail.

[Guest TheBurt]

Someatcguy,

Piggybacking on what I said in the other thread.

Yes, I've had to hold many times, especially going into a busy airport, and that airport temporarily closes for wx, snow removal, switching runways etc. the controllers are aholes and elbows to get everyone stashed in holding till they sort it out. Also in the Herk when going to non-towered fields (also in the 727) when required to shoot a full approach when vectors aren't available, occurs a lot in the Western part of the country. There are still plenty of NDB's approaches around, especially overseas. I can't speak for everyone, but we do not do GPS approaches in the particular 130 that I fly.

[Guest someatcguy]

I will say this with the extended flux of a/c in a certain area...a gate hold, weather hold, ground stop, etc is initiated to garner spacing and is broadcasts to all affected centers. Bad weather aside, holding is somewhat necessary; however, I will say this...working as arrival/approach to Okinawa (only the 5th busiest Japanese airport/and I believe the second busiest overseas DoD base), I did not need to hold and when queried the pilot would prefer a box pattern. Would you prefer a box as opposed to protected holding airspace? (I see the jokes coming) sts. Don't know. The box worked pretty well for visual approaches due to fast moving fronts. Is this pilot preference?

[Guest someatcguy]

BTW, I cannot recall the last time that I held in a commercial airliner. Even with the windows open, flight attendants tending to every passenger, etc., a pilot would know when they were performing donuts in the sky. I, honestly, cannot remember this. NDB's are going away...they will be a thing of the past per the FAA. Class B...I actually recevied my license in the Washington D.C. class B and never had/heard a problem. Things must have drastically changed, unfortunatley....rest in peace soldiers of freedom.

[Techsan]

I don't mind a holding pattern at all. As long as its given to me far enough in advance to where I can plug it into the box, its 10-15 mile legs, and its for minimal time.

Its never nice to hear from center..."Josa 123, reduce speed to 250 knots, prepare to hold."

[Combat Platypus]

Today I had the best holding pattern ever!

I was expecting the worst when we told Eglin approach that we needed to go hold to problem solve. However, Eglin said to hold southwest of the Brooks Bridge at 4k. Brooks bridge right on the beach.

Oh yeah, on topic airliners have to hold sometimes going into hub's. I've never had to hold in the military or flying corporate, at least for real.

[ 27. April 2006, 23:04: Message edited by: Shadow05 ]

[HerkDerka]

Plenty of holding still going on.

You don't see it on the scale you used to back in the older days thanks to well-designed hi-ops airports/RVSM/STARS/ILS PRM and the like.

Head over to Frankurt some time and you'll see some dudes in the real penalty box.

However, being that we rarely fly into DAL or LAX, the most common real-world holding is when a field goes below mins and the controllers have to start stacking 'em up.

The most common holding for military pilots is on local pro trainers. But you'll still see enough real world holding as you bounce around the globe and fields start going below mins. I've sat in holding for an hour waiting to get into the Died while they were zero/zero. The planes were stacked from 10,000 to 25,000 and and one by one the pointy noises started declaring min/emer fuel.

HD

[LJ Driver]

Held plenty of times for real overseas. Not so much here in the CONUS. It's kind of odd now that I think about it. In Europe they have departure slot times for traffic control into certain airports, yet I have still had to hold for traffic many times there. Here in the USA, there are few rules about takeoff times, but I seldom need to hold. Strange.

[Guest AviatorFT07]

To back up what Bergman said:

Whenever I end up flying into Newark commercially, it is almost inevitable that the plane will be put into a holding pattern, regardless of weather. The place just seems to be jammed at all times of the day now.

From now on I'll try my luck at Albany or Bradley/Windsor Locks. Both are about the driving time as Newark from where I live.

[Guest kpaul]

I logged almost as much time holding at Balad AB as I did flying through out the rest of the AOR. We averaged 30 miutes everytime we went in, but after a toy airplane crashed on the runway we held for 2+30. Bagdad was also pretty bad for holding with their screwed up airspace.

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by Five-Oh Co-Pilot:

Bagdad was also pretty bad for holding with their screwed up airspace.

Are you guys talking to Iraqi controllers or Americans when you're flying over there?

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by PhlashNU04:

Are you guys talking to Iraqi controllers or Americans when you're flying over there?

[M2]

One word: Rüdesheim!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by MajorMadMax:

One word: Rüdesheim!

Cheers! M2

"Jago XX, state fuel! And do not lie! I have your flight plan!"

Ahhhh, yes... good times... good times...

:D Hydro

EDIT: better callsign

[ 28. April 2006, 21:57: Message edited by: Hydro130 ]

[Guest lovelacm]

LOL

Didn't we JUST have a very similar conversation about this very NAVAID?

You've gotta love Frankfurt controllers... OK.. so now it's called Langen Radar.. WHATEVER... Same folks...

Don't EVER fly into Frankfurt (don't think there's much need to anymore) without reading the instructions in FLIP... They'll call you out and send you to Rüdesheim faster'n a cat can lick its butt... tell you to pull out the FLIP and read it... call me when you're finished and ready to follow the instructions or at min fuel.

Beautiful... pullin' out the JAGO callsign, my man! I haven't flown one of those in a while... Good times indeed.

I've gotta stick by my "HKY" brethren asking for "hi speed below 10" and the Langen controllers laughing at 'em.

I'll raise my wine glass, filled with the finest Rheinland-Pfalz Kerner Spätlese, to some wonderful memories.

Linda

[Guest Hydro130]

Linda, LOL... so true!

I was waffling between "Jago" and "Koo"...

Cheers, Hydro

[Batman]

Holding can happen anywhere at anytime.

On approach to Lajes from Aviano in the 4 fans of freedom and the Lajes Approach says: "You must hold....No land!....Your diplomatic clearance is wrong!...Must hold!"

My young FE says to me "We don't have the fuel to make it back to Aviano...will we have to ditch?". I couldn't hold back the laughter. No Eng, we're going to land here one way or another at Lajes. After a few penalty laps we were "allowed" to land at Lajes...Approach never did say what was wrong with our dip clearances, only that "the problem is gone". Perfect.

Batman

[HerkDerka]

Kind of funny they lt you into their FIR in the first place if they were having such "problems" with your dips.

HD

[Guest Rainman A-10]

This holding discussion is really quite interesting, mind if I join in?

Holding is great as long as it is over the target providing mutual support for your wingmen or guiding someone else's weapons or just waiting your turn to roll in.

It's nice to show up a little early for your range time and have the flight working the range let you hold high and dry until they are done.

I never minded holding over Dry Lake to let a min/emer fuel LGPOS land in front of me. The pay was decent, one round for every spin.

I liked to hold at the CP/IP, get a 9-line, pass a fighter to fighter and call departing.

I liked to hold for the helos before we daisy chained our way in to the survivor.

[Scooter14]

Well, I enjoy flying to a point and making left hand turns for anywhere from 15 min to 6.9 hours.

I like holding a little longer than we were supposed to and having the Strike Eagle guys thank us for not having to spend the night in Iraq.

I really enjoyed holding (orbiting/delaying...same damn thing) above the killboxes the Vipers and Strike Eagles were working and listening to the play by play. It's nice to see the results of you're presence, even if the pointy nose guys are the middleman.

I don't enjoy holding while the other pilot and the boom are in the books trying to figure out what's wrong with the plane.

[ 30. April 2006, 14:02: Message edited by: Scooter14 ]

[Guest Brewdog]

Although (as it's already been pointed out) holding is far from a thing of the past; I didn't see mention of GDP or GS programs as probably the primary cause of the reduction in airborne holding. The tools in use to predict and manage traffic flow have gotten better.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

<yawn>

[Guest Brewdog]

Not all of us are fortunate enough to have jobs that let us rain down hot metal on our nations enemies. :D I apologize for the boring post.