Pulling Gs

[Wing Sweep]

If there are any fighter/attack ACC types out there, I would like to know how often you are pulling Gs and what is the norm during training vs combat. I guess to give you an example of what I'm asking; Would you say you are pulling Gs 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour per flight? Are you pulling 2-4, 4-6, 6-8 Gs on any given flight? I'm sure it is based on your training profile, which varies from day to day. If able, please give me various scenarios based on the different mission sets you train for.

The reason I ask is because I am interested in the T-38 track, but I herniated two disks in my lower back 4 years ago. I currently have a FC1 with a waiver due to that injury. I never had surgery, but did the therapy, work outs, and recovered fully. I still do things like any normal person would, but once in a while if I do too much lifting, running, etc.. I will have a sore lower back. I am just wondering if the G loads will aggravate this old injury after some time.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[ViperStud]

If you are asking this question you probably are going to have problems. In training you might go out and do a defensive bfm sortie with 5 or so engagements, each where you pull 9 g's for like 20 sec followed by varying g levels for the rest of the fight. What you have to realize is that you will do all of that with your body and head twisted around looking behind you. It sucks for people with no back problems, which means you are only going to have to work that much harder. A great IFF IP I know is going to have to fly another airframe because of chronic back/neck problems. My advice is to seek advice from pilots you come into contact with (duh my bad i'm sure that's why you posted here...) and take what they say to heart, it's too serious of an issue to blow off thinking you can tough it out if all other signs say it will be a problem...

[Wing Sweep]

VS,

I have really been thinking about this lately and I realize I would rather fly my whole career (non-fighters) instead of possibly flying fighters for a few years and then reaggravating an old injury and not be able to fly at all. I have already been told that if the disks herniate one more time, I lose my FC1. I'm not too worried about it because I take care of my back, but pulling a high amount of Gs would definitely (in my opinion) do more harm than good. If you say it sucks for people without back problems, then there's no way in heck I'll hack a high-G aircraft for a whole career. Thanks for your thoughts on this issue.

[Wing Sweep]

Okay, so Vipers are turning and burning. How about Strike Eagles, Hogs, and Bones?

[Toro]

The Strike Eagle can pull 9Gs, but we can't maintain it for any considerable amount of time. Depending on weight, altitude and engines, we can generally sustain around 5-ish Gs. It's not a whole lot, but I wouldn't try to do it with a messed a back.

[Carpetbagger]

Like you said, flying whole career in 3G or less environment, or flying a little, then never. I had a friend who was a T-38 IP (FAIP) and eventually lost his fighter at IFF because of a similar back injury that occurred years earlier. He is enjoying the Herk lifestyle now, and happy to be flying. Don't lean so far forward that you fall on your face. Plenty of action to be had in other airframes (just ask some of the OIF/OEF types). Good luck in your pursuit

[Baseops.Net]

I have a friend who used to fly the Mighty Mudhen - and reagrivated an old back injury - got surgery + a waiver - reagrivated it again, and now flies Herks (happily!).

In fact, you may even see back pain during phase 2 - I knew of many studs that felt pain in Phase 2...

[Guest HueyPilot]

Just remember if you're interested in tactical aviation and you're not too sure about your back...Herks rule!

[Wing Sweep]

I am an E (IL) on MC type herks. Like most, started out on slicks (red tails) out in the Big Country. Those of you who live there know where I'm talking about. I love the mission and will most likely try to return to MCs.

[Toro]

There was a T-38 FAIP with me at Columbus who started having serious back issues and when it came time for his assignment he had to go to 135s because of his back. He wasn't stoked at first, but he loves it now.

[Guest aquinas]

For all you current pilots out there...what is it really like pulling g's? When diving or going vertical what exactly does your body/stomach feel like? Does your stomach "drop" everytime or do you eventually get used to it? Or is it just a normal feeling everytime? Is it like a roller coaster feel? Sorry, if these are n00b questions, but I've wondered about this for sometime and obviously there is really no way to find this out on my own without asking!

[Gravedigger]

The only way to find out is to GO FLYING. That said, G's (i've experienced a whopping +4 and -1.5) feel exactly how you would imagine your body feels at X times it's normal weight. For the negative G's part of the question, yes, it feels like cresting a hill on a roller coaster. G's are G's regardless of how they are created. I like to strap myself in REALLY tight when I know I'm gonna be pulling neg G's; one, because I hate feeling like I'm gonna fall out of the f*cking seat, and two, because I think it takes away some of the "drop" feeling. The real g pullers are gonna have to answer the rest of your question, but that's a start.

Also read this article, it has some good info on G's. G Forces

[ 25. May 2005, 23:43: Message edited by: c17wannabe ]

[Guest aquinas]

Thanks for the reply c17! *edit* Also, thanks for the article, didn't see that at first.

How difficult is it to keep situational awareness when pulling g's? Also, which type(neg/pos)is more difficult to keep situational awareness?

Thanks!

[ 25. May 2005, 23:47: Message edited by: aquinas ]

[Gravedigger]

I'm by no means an expert on this matter, nor well versed, but personally I think it's harder to maintain SA in neg g's. I was fortunate enough to get to see my attitide indicator tumble on my instrument checkride during unusual attidudes. I was under the hood, and I thought it was quite difficult to re-focus during the brief negative g. I have never had a problem maintaining SA during really steep turns or any other +G maneuver. Again, I really don't have a ton of experience either way, that's just my opinion.

[Toro]

c17s article was pretty accurate. I wouldn't equate positive Gs (the kind you pull most often) to your stomach dropping, though it's pretty accurate for negative Gs. Positive doesn't bother me (though my pig of a jet can't sustain them for long), but negative is real uncomfortable. I used to be an FCF pilot in T-38s and part of the profile was to check the oil system under negative G. You rolled inverted and pushed forward on the stick to -1G. If the system didn't check out, you pushed forward to -2G...that sucked. You could tell when I had flown a -2G FCF profile because I'd come back with completely bloodshot eyes.

As far as keeping SA, I don't think most fighter guys have a problem with either. We do BFM under high G all the time and pretty much the only time we go negative is when we have to bunt over because we realize we just blew through our clearance altitude.

[Beaver]

Once you get into tactical flying, pulling G's isn't really an event anymore. It's just what happens as you try to put your jet where you want it in 3 dimensions. The only time I'm really conscious of it is at the turn circle entry in BFM or at the merge in High aspect BFM, because that's when you're most likely to pull a lot of G's really hurt yourself.

With time and experience, your Anti G straining manuever becomes an unconscious reflex when you pull back on the stick.

And like Toro said, negative G's are rare, because they suck. Flying out of PSAB I bunted to keep from blowing through an altitude restriction on the departure, and my fag bag floated up and flew into the way back of the canopy. My piddle packs were in there and I had a 6 hour sortie ahead of me, so I had to get it back. I completely unstrapped, turned around backward in the seat, and could just barely reach it, but I got it back. Did I mention it was night? Technique only, but if this happens to you, a better idea is to hit the speed brakes and bunt again. Stuff will usually float back up to the front of the cockpit.

[Guest Dirt Beater]

What is bunting?

[Scooter14]

It's a sharp forward motion on the stick. It usually takes whatever is not strapped down and sends it to the roof.

Hopefully it will advance the baserunner in a 0 or 1 out situation into scoring position.

[ 26. May 2005, 11:49: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest Liger]

i've heard that fighter-guys can lose an inch or so off their height after pulling g's for a couple of years. true?

[ClearedHot]

Figher guys = Shorter...No

Fighter guys = Smaller Penis...yes

[M2]

You lose height (notice I didn't say "shrink") as you get older anyway...

But that makes your "Liger" bigger in perspective!

Cheers! M2

[Hacker]

Back on topic...

I actually have lost an inch in height since I started flying fighters.

I measured just a bit over 6'2" when I had my first FC1 physical, and by my 2nd year flying the F-15E, I had lost 1 inch vertically.

The good news is that ever since then I haven't lost any height.