RC-135 (Rivet Joint) Q&A

[Guest SoCalEWO]

I'm doing EWO training right now and it looks like I'm headed to Omaha for the RC-135. Anyone been there or know of the place to comfort the blow?

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

I'm here now, and I think either PAB or Bergman was here before as a EWO. They can fill you in on more specific EWO questions.

Offutt and Omaha are actually better than to be expected. You have the Univ of Lincoln 45 minutes to the Southwest, and those kids drive up on weekends - good crowd.

The weather is tolerable....38" of snow on the ground at one time was cool, but the 46 days below freezing sucked!!! Summers now range to 90-95 F.

If you are single, plan on living in one of the socially acceptable lofts downtown, whcih are a good stumbling distance from most of the major nightlife. If you are married, same thing applies, but if you have kids, base housing sucks. Period. Plan to either rent or buy. The cities of Papillion and La Vista are good towns, and you can find a house to buy at a reasonable price. Schools here are ranked among the best in the nation.

Golf courses are plentiful, my favorites are Eagle Hills and it's sister course, Tara Hills. the base course, Willow Lakes, is a great buy as well.

Some of the "must see items"....

1.) College world series. The CGO's throw one massive party out at Rosenblatt Stadium. Great time. Begins 17 June.

2.) The Omaha Zoo (Henry Dorely). Ranked best in the nation by Readers Digest something like the last six years. Even if you are single, it's a cool place.

3.) The Saturday Market down in the Old Market. Cool stuff and good food.

4.) Get tickets to see the Huskers play. Even if your not a fan when you get here, you'll hate them even more when you leave. I went to a game last year, GREAT TIME, even though I'm a Longhorn!!

5.) SAC museum.

6.) The Omaha nightlife.

Feel free to PM me if you wish additional, more specific things.

-Cheers

[ 10. June 2004, 20:21: Message edited by: C-21 Pilot ]

[Scooter14]

Great town, interesting mission for an EWO. Good people, too. You've got Raven3 and Bergman who've done the job well and can talk more about that side of the house, but do a search for RC-135 and you'll see some comments, good and bad.

C-21, if you ever call me an EWO again, I know where you live (or at least where you fly out of)

[ 10. June 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest IAGuardWife]

You better watch it, we never claimed PAB as one of our "flock"! (dumb 38th guys....)

[GBock]

I'm deployed with a certain white jet from OF right now. Let me tell you... you are going to have fun. I'd tell you all about it, but a group of ravens got me so trashed last night, I can't think too hard.

And if you're not into partying... it's an awesome, awesome, awesome mission.

Congrats.

[Herk Mafia]

My roomate got the RC during this last drop. He is a little upset about it since he doesnt know anything about it so I was trying to find some good info for him about it online. Anyone know of any good websites on this or maybe have some experience with flying this plane? Thanks.

[Guest blkafnav]

I was a fomer nav on RC-135S/U (COBRA BALL & COMBAT SENT). I can tell you these two planes are the best kept secret in the AF. A new copilot will love these two planes. The cockpit is RIVET GLASS, equal to a 777 cockpit. The missions are some of the best out there and the worst location he'll see is Diego Garcia (if he goes 45RS). The RIVET JOINT (343RS and 38RS)in my opinion is not as great as the other two planes. They see desert most of the time but do get to Kadena and Mildenhall. I was able to deploy 9 times in two years while my peers out of nav school that went RJ may have deployed 3, all to the desert. I got to see Hawaii, Guam, Kadena, Yokota, Alaska, Mildenhall, Souda Bay, Diego Garcia, and Al Udeid (volunteered). We were tasked by agencies outside of the AF and our mission was one that required the upmost professionalism and competence. If your body really wants to get the down and dirty, have him contact Maj. Walt Lovings or Capt. Christopher Floyd. Both are at the RTU in Offutt AFB and are on the BALL. They would be the two that could help your friend get into the best damn squadron in the AF. Trust me if I can't get T-44's and go T-1's, the 45RS is where I want to be!!

[scoobs]

How do they determine what unit you go to.Is luck of the draw.Is the TDY rate higher now with the war.And what do you do during flight?

[Scooter14]

https://www.6srw.com/

https://www.silent-warriors.com/

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/rivet_joint.htm

These will get ya started with the unclass aspects of the missions.

https://www.shemya.net/KC-135.html The best book on the -135 ever (note the RC-135U on the cover)

To piggyback on what my young former student (blkafnav) was saying, the RC-135 mission is one of the best out there. There are three types, the RIVET JOINT (RC-135 V/W), and the ones mentioned above. Odds are, you'll end up in the RJ due to numbers of tails (16 RJ, 2 CS, 3 CB), and that's perfectly fine, since the 38th and 343rd are also excellent squadrons.

You'll hear the argument over and over..."Oh, the 45th is where you want to be"..."Oh yeah, the 343rd sucks, you want to be in the 38th."

Don't believe the hype. I was all stressed out over this since the guys I went to nav school with were in the 45th, and they told me that it was the best and all the others sucked.

They were wrong.

Go where you are told and it will all work out. You can always cross-flow over to the other squadron, but almost nobody does, because you end up attached to your particular mission/squadron/group of buds.

True, the RJ deploys to more limited locations, but the schedule is done up well in advance. You'll see Al Udeid, play an integral role in OEF/OIF, Kadena, Mildenhall, Souda Bay, and on occasion Diego Garcia. The CB/CS guys are often on a beeper - no booze, no leave, just sit home and wait for it to go off. Sure, they go to Alaska and stuff, but with a family, it was way easier to be part of thr RJ community. I was almost exclusively RJ (with a couple of CS trips to Kadena), and I saw Kadena, Mildenhall, Saudi (pre-Al Udeid), Souda Bay, and Oman, as well as Hickam, Eglin, Pease, Fairchild, Eielson. Oh, and Nellis (the RJ plays here, not so much the CS/CB)

The RCs are what's known as LD/HD, low density, high demand. They don't fit into the AEF rotation so good, so they end up gone a lot, but then again, everyone is gone a lot, so it doesn't matter.

As for pilot stuff, the Aircraft Commander is the final say in the mission, but he/she works very closely with the nav (to keep him out of trouble), the TC (lead EWO of the three you will have on board the RJ, or the 9 you'll have on the SENT) and the AMS (the head enlisted crewmember who heads the crew of 10-15 intelligence operators) to get the mission done. You will have access to 99% of what is going on back there, and it's incredible stuff. The biggest thing I miss is not having the SA of what is going on. In the RJ, you'll know who's doing what at all times, and you have a front row seat.

Sometimes you'll be part of a whole big package (sts) with everyone relying on your crew to provide intelligence and threat warning, and other times it will be just you, alone, unarmed and unafraid, operating thousands of miles from your TDY base.

Your friend is lucky. The RC usually falls pretty low in the UPT class, because people equate it with AWACS and Tankers and everyone wants a C-17, blah, blah, blah. I had no idea what it was when I got assigned there as a navigator, but I had a blast. Good people, good mission, good town to be in (Omaha beats the hell out of Rapid City, SD, Abilene and Grand Forks, ND, I'm sure).

Advancement-wise, you can stay for 3 years, then try for AETC, AFSOC, or AWACS/JSTARS, or you can move up the corporate ladder and do Training Flight, Stan/Eval and then instruct in the FTU and never have to sell your house. You can go to Kadena or Mildenhall for a 3 year tour as well and still be part of the 55th Wing. You will rack up hours. I got 2500 in 6 1/2 years.

Yeah, we don't do low-level, and a lot of time is spent going from A to B and back to A, but remember, you can fly an orbit for 9 hours or you can fly from Charleston to Ramstein, but you're still droning for 9 hours either way.

RC's don't deal with 17 hour ground times, either. We go there and stay for a while, somtimes quite a while.

If you have any questions about the mission, the town, jobs for spouses, where to get drunk, which casino will best take your money (it's a toss-up) etc, let me or Bergman know, we both worked in the RTU and can get you what you need.

Oh yeah, and they have the big motors now, too. You know what they say about bigger engines...

More thrust.

[ 27. March 2005, 18:47: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest blkafnav]

Let me clear up what my former Instructor PAB has to say about the 45RS. Yes he is right about us not having a schedule when it came to deployments, however, we do have a hook system. In other words, crew members would be on the hook to deploy for two months at a time. This meant if the call came in to deploy, those on the hook went. We are very good about rotating crews in and out around the 45 day point. If you won't to stay longer it is very possible. My longest TDY was 73 days and that's due to me wanting to stay at rotation time. Believe it or not, even with the 45RS being deployed most of the year, the avg crew member is home more than their tanker, C-17, and C-5 conterparts. PAB was a nav on the RJ prior to 9-11. Now they rarely get the good deployments. Ask anybody up there and they will tell you it's 90% desert, 5% Kadena, and 5% Mildenhall/Souda Bay. PAB is correct on one thing, not matter which squadron or jet you get out of the RTU you will love the mission and squadron. Offutt AFB flying squadrons will always say each are better than the other but one thing all RC crew members can agree on, we love our jets and no others out there are more intense or exciting.

[Guest blkafnav]

One more thing, tell your friend if he does goes 45RS his avg ops sortie will be between 12hrs-18hrs.

[Scooter14]

PAB was a nav on the RJ prior to 9-11

Hey, I did an OEF trip May-Jul 2002, and that was the ONLY time I got to see Souda (granted, we lost an engine over the Med and had to land there, or I never would have gone there) Five days with a broken jet in Crete in July with all of the Germans and Norwegians on holiday topless at the beach...it did not suck! But you are correct, you will spend lots of time cleaning sand out of your crack.

PAB is correct on one thing, not matter which squadron or jet you get out of the RTU you will love the mission and squadron. Offutt AFB flying squadrons will always say each are better than the other but one thing all RC crew members can agree on, we love our jets and no others out there are more intense or exciting.

Amen, brother.

I just had to give some props to my old squadron, I guess I can calm down now that I'm in the ANG. I guess the sibling rivalry never ends, does it?

Let me know how track select works out, good luck on that T-44.

BTW, shouldn't you be walking around a mock up pattern saying things like "VFR Entry", "Perch Point Breaking out" and "Left base, gear down, full stop" right now?

AFUPTStud, if you are a Vance guy, you've got some IPs with very recent RC experience in the 32nd and the 8th with you, good dudes. Have your buddy talk to them as well. I'll PM ya.

[ 27. March 2005, 19:51: Message edited by: PAB ]

[CHS17]

Which of the RC's have the modernized flight decks?

[Guest blkafnav]

Most RJ's have them now. All new crews there will be trained on the big motor glass. The COBRA BALL has it's first one being delivered this spring/early summer. The SENT is full glass and the other one is in depot getting upgraded right now.

[scoobs]

Since there not part of the rotation do deploy once or twice a year and for how long.Is the desert as bad as people make it sound?

[ 27. March 2005, 22:30: Message edited by: scoobs ]

[Guest forcemac]

Well, I am a RC-135 (RJ) Copilot and am setting in the desert right now. Almost done with a 90 day deployment, my first ever deployment.

Listen to PAB, he's pretty dead on. The RC is a pretty good assignment, people rag on it becuase fools mock what they don't know. The nature of the program kinda breads these feelings becuase RC folks really don't get out of the community that easy. So if you don't have RC folks out in UPT, it easy for rumors to get started and have no one to refute it. That said, the MWS is going through some painful changes, new engines, new avionics, although by the time your friend gets here the engine thing will be moot, as the last small motor RJ went to depot....but if he goes 45th thats another story...

That opens a whole can of worms too, there are five different RC platforms, each different. Right now, you will only be qualified in one of them, with the exception if you Skies/Phoenix in the 45th..both are small motors. Used to be in the 45th you went Ball/Sent or Skies/Phoenix, or if you went to the 38th or 343rd you'd be a RJ guy. Now with the 45th starting to get big motors strapped to their jets, you will only fly Sent (curenntly only 45th jet that has big motors...and its only one of the sents), until the first Ball comes back with big motors, which is sometime this year. Now here is a something for you to chew on, if you go 45th right now, today....you will be trained as big motor only, so thats one jet for the entire squadron you would be qualified on..and you can't even do transition on it! One jet, probably about 14 co pilots...you do the math...you wont' deploy that much, and wont' fly that much either.....for now.

If you look at the RJ side (343 or 38), all the jets are big motors now, and you are qualified as on both glass jets and round dial jets. So now you have 14 or so jets that you are qualified on...probablly around 40 co pilots betweeen the two squadrons...you get to deployed more and fly more...and you get combat hours in the RJ...and tax free...but go to less glamorous places...ie desert or kandena only...and you are gone longer in RJ...90 days is standard now...

So it depends on how much flying you want to do...once you are in the air, all the platforms do the same....orbit....with exception of the Sent, it does some different stuff once in awhile..

The desert isn't bad, this is my first trip and am writing this from my room, we have internet access in the rooms (albeit gov't access)...we have beer (albeit only 3 a day)...we have a movie theater, chow hall, burger king, subway, pizza hut, dairy queen (which is attached to the out door pool), dunkin donuts, a bx, laundry service, a couple of nice lounges (Jacks and Andy's), a big f'ing out door plaza/tent...hard billets (not tents, cable tv in the rooms (gotta obtain a tv though)...list goes on...but there are quirky rules, PT civi's only, gotta have a disco belt at night, no bathrooms in the dorms (gotta walk about 200 yards...thats the worst scenario some folks are closer), gotta have your man "purse", etc....

No porn allowed, or sex in the dorms (but they hand out condoms at the flight surgeons office). I am married so I guess the no sex thing keeps me out of trouble with the wife...but I do miss the wife.......<sigh..only 30 more days>...

ok...reading some more posts here and gonna comment...

The cockpits that are glass, seem to be nav's nightmare, becuase the FMS in the glass sucks ass. It wasn't designed to fly the kind of stuff we fly....nor was it designed to used with nav either...

That said, the Nav runs about 5 different nav systems in the glass cockpits, 2 FMS, the Inertial, Radar, and manual fixing..all with one nav..now none of the systems are tied to together in such a way that a change can be easily made to the flight plans...say you get direct to this point instead of another, now the nav has to update at least 3 of the systems (FMS1,FMS2, LN20)...as pilots we are used to playing with FMS (at least I was, I was a pure glass baby in UPT T6 then T1) so its pretty easy to DTO myself and help the nav out...but there is some higher CRM that needs to be implemented with glass jets...as sometimes nav's don't like you playing with the FMS making changes, its hard cuz when you get cleared somewhere and nav doesn't even have ATC pulled up or is working on something, they freak out (I have been flying with a lot of baby navs...so don't freak out exprienced NAVs have their shit together)...so a lot of patience and good comm's are needed. As a pilot you need back the nav up on inputs and make sure all 3 boxes are giving you good poop, as it easy to get all three boxs going in different directions...and you only hope that the auto pilot is tied to the one going in the right direction...

Interaction with a NAV, is a different expereince, especially with coming out of UPT and all the stuff that is pounded in your head...with that said I won't comment on if its good or bad...it just different and takes some getting used to...again CRM really having to work...

Another comment on the glass in general...user interface sucks ass...the T6 and T1 had better glass. The displays are alright, but the jets really don't like glass. All the inputs are converted from anaglog to digital to anaglog to digital so many times that there are quirks...the autopilot for one....it won't level off, hold airspeed, etc.....so from my perspective the glass upgrades are mixed bag, a lot of the FMS functions are no workie just becuase they didn't buy the data for it...as a new UPT grad, you will have fits trying to learn the avionics as NOTHING, I mean NOTHING is tied to together...its very frustrating...you'll see it at the school house....but once you learn it, its fairly simple, and you build a routine...its just the shock of learning a new MDS, then add in its a step backwards as far as avionics go...

I am not going to proof read this post as its way to freking long alreay...so screw the grammer...

PS I have quite a few photos from the desert here, if you want some...

[ 27. March 2005, 23:39: Message edited by: forcemac ]

[Guest blkafnav]

Don't let FORCEMAC scare you about the 45RS having only one big motor jet. By the time your friend gets there they'll have a BALL and SENT with big motor/glass and will (like always) be flying their asses off. The one SENT that is flying is on the road 300+ days a year. That's one jet!!! Your friend will fly and deploy more than he cares to. The good thing about the 45RS is most of your hours are ops missions. The BALL is one the road 250-300 days a year. When the 128 (big motor/glass) gets there in May boths BALL's will have a combined 550+ days due to them being needed all over the world. In two years in the 45RS I racked up 850hrs, 650hrs being ops sorties. Only half of my deployments were flying, the others I was an Air Operations Officer (AOO). It is more like an ADO position and I was a LT. You run the ops side of the mission at austere locations. As a former nav, FORCEMAC is right in saying that the baby navs will freak out sometimes when things don't go like they should. Never feel like a nav is a burden b/c he'll save your butt more than you'll save his. In the 45RS the nav works with the backend to have the jet where it needs to be, the nav runs the A/R up to 1 mile, and the nav will be the one that flies the plane once the autopilot is tied in by the pilots. You will love to respect the nav (may not like all of them).

[Guest forcemac]

Originally posted by blkafnav:

Don't let FORCEMAC scare you about the 45RS having only one big motor jet. By the time your friend gets there they'll have a BALL and SENT with big motor/glass and will (like always) be flying their asses off. The one SENT that is flying is on the road 300+ days a year. That's one jet!!! Your friend will fly and deploy more than he cares to. The good thing about the 45RS is most of your hours are ops missions. The BALL is one the road 250-300 days a year. When the 128 (big motor/glass) gets there in May boths BALL's will have a combined 550+ days due to them being needed all over the world. In two years in the 45RS I racked up 850hrs, 650hrs being ops sorties. Only half of my deployments were flying, the others I was an Air Operations Officer (AOO). It is more like an ADO position and I was a LT. You run the ops side of the mission at austere locations. As a former nav, FORCEMAC is right in saying that the baby navs will freak out sometimes when things don't go like they should. Never feel like a nav is a burden b/c he'll save your butt more than you'll save his. In the 45RS the nav works with the backend to have the jet where it needs to be, the nav runs the A/R up to 1 mile, and the nav will be the one that flies the plane once the autopilot is tied in by the pilots. You will love to respect the nav (may not like all of them).

I agree about your points ont the nav, no doggin you there...but hours thing is an issue right now in the 45th...and will be for awhile from what it sounds like from my friends there. Granted the Ball has to come back soon, its been delayed over a year and a half already (people were talking about it coming back when I inprocessed at the school house in august 2003). That and the 45th is over manned in CO's right now...main reason I am in the 38th now...I was supposed to go to the 45th, but they changed it a week before my check ride...its not that the 45th jumped the gun on qual'ing everyone big motor glass, I think not getting the ball back in when they planned created a glut of Big Motor Glass guys that can't fly...I have heard some of the earliar big motor glass guys got in house qaul'd on the small motor round dials...

[scoobs]

Do you guys only go to the desert once a year like fighter guys?Also how is it determined if you go to the desert or Japan?I would imagine Kadena is more popular.

[Guest LuvMyFlyboy]

Hi. Anyone know where you go for training in the RC-135? Do you go straight to Offutt after UPT or do you have a few months of training at another location first? Thanks!

[Scooter14]

Typically straight to Offutt. You might do Survival School (Fairchild) enroute, but except for that 3-4 week period, it is all at Offutt.

If you need info on the RC, run a search. There is a thread from a few months ago with a lot of good info. If you still have ?s, feel free to PM any of us from that thread who did the RC thing. Good luck and have fun. As AF towns go, Omaha's a good place to be.

[Guest blkafnav]

You will not start the RTU until you complete SV-83 (Advance Beatings). If you can, try and get the 45RS, it is by far the best RC squadron. You will not see the desert!

[Guest kottlows]

The 38th, IMHO, has the best squadron bar at Offutt.

[Guest Deviator]

Hey everyone,

This is my first post on here. We just got one RC in our drop for a 14 October assignment night here at Columbus and would like to know how you would compare the RC to the KC-135 and the KC-10. I know they have different missions but I know very little else.

[Scooter14]

Deviator,

OK, here it goes. I'll answer some of your e-mail ?'s for the benefit of all:

Currently, the RC's (at least the 343rd/38th, where you have the highest probablility of ending up) are doing mostly 90 day trips to the desert with a 45 day trip to the Pacific mixed in there every so often. They are trying to get this changed to 45-60 day trips. This is from my buds who I just saw out at reflective belt land. Each squadron takes a 90 day block of time, and they split a trip in the summer, so one squadron isn't gone every Xmas. Plan on at least 200 days a year on the road.

The AD KC-135 guys are doing 60ish rotations in the AOR, home for 30-60 days, then back on the road. Most guys have been gone for 180-240 days a year.

KC-10's have a deployed presence in the desert, but they are involved in a lot of Coronets which keep them on the road for a week or so at a time. I'm not sure of their deployment rates, but a couple of guys on the crew I just flew home with had just gotten back from a Coronet earlier in September, and were back out on the road again in early October. They also do cargo missions (channels) that keep them out for a week at a time.

blkafnav can fill you in on life in the 45th, although I know things have changed in that squadron in the past couple of years having spoken with some of the RC guys out on the road.

ACC likes to keep RC folks in the ISR community, either in RC's, AWACS or JSTARS. Since the flying is basically the same (high level orbits), I just stayed put in the RC, instead of trying to learn a new plane/mission and advanced there. Omaha was good to me, my family liked it, so we hung out until I got my Guard job. Some folks went to JSTARS, nobody went to AWACS that I knew of, you could move up to the FTU once you became an IP, or move to the overseas squadrons at Mildenhall or Kadena (no jets, but pilots/navs/ravens to support EUCOM/PACOM deployments). Some guys escaped to Compass Call and AFSOC as well as white jets, and we had a couple go to B-2's and U-2's, but very, very few went to AMC on AD. A lot of guys are flying KC's in the Guard/Reserves now, though.

I have zero credits past my bachelors, but with online studying, I'm sure a masters is possible.

I know of people who homeschooled in Omaha, and there is a group on base to suport it, but I have no info past that.

In all, RC's were cool. Interesting mission, long flights, go tot he same places over and over, good people, good family support, a town with stuff for your wife/kid to do while you sit in a trailer in the desert for 90 days at a time.

Good luck.