AF Religion Guidelines

[M2]

Shit, we are all over the news today...can we discuss this without getting into a religious debate??

Cheers! M2

Air Force Releases New Religion Guidelines

By ROBERT WELLER, Associated Press Writer

The Air Force released new guidelines for religious tolerance Monday that discourage public prayer at official functions and urge commanders to be sensitive about personal expressions of religious faith.

The document directs chaplains to "respect the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs." But some who have criticized the academy questioned whether needed changes will really be implemented.

The guidelines, which apply to the entire Air Force, were drawn up after allegations that evangelical Christians wield so much influence at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs that anti-Semitism and other forms of religious harassment have become pervasive.

An Air Force task force concluded that some students and staff at the school have the perception that the academy favors evangelical Christians and is intolerant of those who do not share their faith.

Rob Boston, spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and Abraham Foxman, head of the New York-based Anti-Defamation League, both said the big question now is how the rules will be implemented.

The guidelines "say all the right things," Foxman said. "They address all the issues that were raised as problems at the Air Force Academy. The major question is, how will be they become a reality? A lot of the people implementing this are the people who violated it."

Mikey Weinstein, an academy graduate who says his sons have been the target of anti-Semitic slurs at the school, said the new guidelines fail to control evangelical zealots.

"The Air Force's official policy remains that the Air Force reserves the right to evangelize anyone in the Air Force that it determines to be unchurched," Weinstein said in an interview from his home in Albuquerque, N.M.

The guidelines do not ban public prayer outright and say short, nonsectarian prayers may be included in special ceremonies or events, but only to lend a sense of solemnity and not to promote specific beliefs.

Nor do they bar personal discussions of religion, including discussions between commanders and subordinates. They caution Air Force members "to be sensitive to the potential that personal expressions may appear to be official expressions."

The guidelines state that members of the Air Force "will not officially endorse or establish religion, either one specific religion, or the idea of religion over non-religion."

They also say that "abuse or disrespect" of Air Force members based on their religious beliefs, or lack of such beliefs, is unacceptable.

___

On the Net:

Air Force Academy: https://www.usafa.af.mil/

Americans United for Separation of Church and State: https://www.au.org/site/pageserver

[Wing Sweep]

Hook, line and sinker. My discussion on this matter is as follows:

Discalimer: This probably won't apply to anyone who reads this forum frequently, but in case you're a commie, yellow-belly bastard, this Bud's for you. Enjoy! If you're not a commie bastard, I think you still might find this post amusing at the very least.

WTFO! Why is everything getting so freaking PC. Kind of goes along the same lines as the pigskin boot debate. Give me a freaking break! The AF brass needs to get a spine, stand up straight, and quit worrying about possibly insulting, offending or embarrasing someone. So what if we offend a few people. Big freaking deal. AF brass, you will always offend someone! Quit trying to make everyone happy!

People who get offended so easily can leave my AF. If you happen to be reading this and you're one of these spineless, touchy feely, yellow belly, pu$$!@s, toughen up or go work at an internet company in San Fran. While you're at it, get a state funded sex change so your body parts are more in line your personality and train of thought.

I hope I have offended if you:

1. Don't like pigskin boots

2. Don't like evangelicals (see #6 for further explanation)

3. Think we aren't sensitive enough to people's needs in the AF

4. Believe that sex changes should be govt sponsored.

5. Think I shouldn't pray and say the name of the God I'm praying to

6.Think I can't have a Bible on my desk. (I bet if it was a freaking Koran you woudln't say a thing because you'd be afraid of offending me by asking me to remove it, right? But, since the Bible is a Christian book, you think you can go complain to the IG that I'm trying to convert you.)

7.Believe in the seperation of church and state

8.Believe that communism should be another form of accepted polital thought.

9.Think that Iraq wasn't worth going into and taking out Hussein.

I hope I haven't pissed off the whole world, but this is just how I feel about all this PC stuff. Just when you think the AF has peaked at its highest levels of being PC, they throw something new at us. I remember as an Airman getting smacked in the back of the head, getting yelled at, being threatened by a SNCO that he would kick my ass if I ever crossed him the wrong way or disrespected him, and getting a good old fashioned ass chewing (from a Major) for something I absolutely knew nothing about.

That kind of stuff builds character and maybe we could use some more of that in our AF.

Food for thought....

[ 29. August 2005, 16:41: Message edited by: gabe2surf ]

[Hacker]

I personally don't see a problem with it. Don't know how other services are, but the USAF is unbelievably overtly-Christian, and has been since the day I enlisted.

If we're going to practice religious tolerance, then it's time to start practicing it instead of just paying it lip service.

[Guest toughnuts]

Slowly and steadily this country is drifting off its foundations and gradually sinking in the sands of modernism and secularism. The proper activity for modern Christians therefore eventually becomes mere "social action", striving to help in the future of social order into a more advanced and enlightened humanistic society.

-Paraphrased from a book written in 1963.

It's not really anything new, it was foretold in the bible.

[ 29. August 2005, 17:43: Message edited by: toughnuts ]

[Gravedigger]

Most people here already know how I feel about the 10 Commandments in Public Courthouses, but this is just lame as hell. When I was in high school, we always had group prayers and shit on teams and in clubs. Did it offend me...hell no. I think that faith is an integral part of the military and it gives people strength. If they want to pray, then they should be able to. You can pray any damn way you want. Would the result be the same if a group of Islamic or Jewish cadets prayed together and had other people here their prayers? I doubt it. If someone were in fact telling cadets they were pagan or going to hell or something, then they would need to get their ass kicked and leave the academy. I doubt that is the case though.

[Guest ericvano]

Hacker, I agree with you. "The guidelines do not ban public prayer outright and say short, nonsectarian prayers may be included in special ceremonies or events, but only to lend a sense of solemnity and not to promote specific beliefs." I don't see a problem with that. You can still pray, you can even do it at sanctioned events. Just don't push your beliefs on someone else. As long as you don't, no problems.

Slowly and steadily this country is drifting off its foundations and gradually sinking in the sands of modernism and secularism.

No, religion only had to do with the foundations of this country insofar as there was no established state religion.

Oh and by the way, I'm not an atheist, I pray daily, privately.

[ 29. August 2005, 20:57: Message edited by: Coach Z ]

[Beaver]

So there isn't religious intolerance in the Air Force? Gabe2Surf, your post summed it up nicely, but not in the way you intended, I think. Your diatribe seems to imply that if someone doesn't agree with being preached to by a Christian then they are a gay, communist, spineless yellow belly who doesn't believe in the war in Iraq and desires a sex change.

In one post you managed to bash a religion, a sexual orientation, the constitution, and a political system. Congrats.

[bucky60k]

Religion might have a role in the military but it definately should not be forced down people's throats. The Acadamy fiasco with the Passion of the Christ is a perfect example of how non-Christians are being targeted. Hopefully this measure will do something to alleviate this but we'll see...

[Wing Sweep]

Beaver,

Maybe this will help clear up my point. In 7 years, I have never experienced religious intolerance in the AF. Most of these circus stunts we hear about in the news are all happening at the USAFA with 20 year old kids who have not served in the military in any real capacity (with a few exceptions). The Zoo is not the real AF, just like ROTC or OTS is not the real AF either. Yet things that occur there are shaping policy in the real AF?!?! What gives?

Just becasue I don't take kindly to a sexual orientation, religion and/or political system doesn't make me a bad person or doesn't mean I'm bashing them. It just means I choose to not associate with people whose lifestyles and ways of thinking I disagree with and there's nothing wrong with that. I can say I disagree with those things or I can be spineless and say the old "as long as they're not hurting me, they're okay" line. Would you rather me be fake and spineless or stand up straight and tell you exactly how I feel? I don't care if people think or act a certain way. Thats fine with me, but don't tell me I can't think a certain way, because at that point you (whoever it may be) would be the intolerant one.

PC in the AF is way out of hand and unfortunately MEO and similar agencies have been given an inch and taken way too many miles in this respect. My old unit had to have "sensitivity training" from some MEO non-combatant about how perception is reality and how Maxims might offend someone. There is a place for MEO, tolerance, etc... but please don't take it to the PC extreme becasue God forbid we may offend someone.

[Beaver]

Just becasue I don't take kindly to a sexual orientation, religion and/or political system doesn't make me a bad person or doesn't mean I'm bashing them. It just means I choose to not associate with people whose lifestyles and ways of thinking I disagree with and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's exactly the point. You don't get to CHOOSE whether or not to associate with someone of a religion or political view that you disagree with if they are in your squadron. Your job is to put aside YOUR personal preferences and learn to live and work together. MEO isn't about offending the enemy; it's about offending your squadron buds.

[DC]

We must hold ourselves to the highest of high standards. If that means having political correctness run nearly out of control, I'm okay with that. If you don't want to be PC and hold yourself to a higher standard you probably aren't in the right business.

Yes, there is a difference between policies written out and how they are actually practiced. Yes, there is a difference between the "real" AF and AETC and the Zoo and whatever. That's reality. But still, we go back to the higher standard we should hold ourselves to.

Would you rather me be fake and spineless or stand up straight and tell you exactly how I feel?

If how you feel is hateful, I'd rather you hide your feelings. It isn't spineless to do so. Remember, there is a difference between prejudice and discrimination. You are entitled to all the prejudice you want, but you sure as hell better not practice discrimination.

[ 30. August 2005, 20:58: Message edited by: DC ]

[DC]

Offending the enemy I have no issues with, but who do you think brought up the fact that we might offend Arabs with pigskin boots? My guess would be that high brass MEO and JAG types as well as politicians had some say in matter. Remember, I said it's just a guess.

Well, actually.. offending the enemy is a problem we need to think about. This is as much a hearts and minds war as it is a bombs on target war. Often even moreso.

Having high standards doesn't mean appeasing everyone you offend. It means standing up for what is right and what you believe in. There's definitely some good, strong opinions and thoughts concerning this issue, as there should be.

Standing up for what you believe in if it is hateful does not make it right, and that's the point. Having high standards means standing up for what is right reguardless of what you believe in. I honestly couldn't care less what you believe, but I do care what you stand up for.

[Guest Critical Mass]

People who get offended so easily can leave my AF. If you happen to be reading this and you're one of these spineless, touchy feely, yellow belly, pu$$!@s, toughen up or go work at an internet company in San Fran.

You do realize that a policy has been put in place that creates an environment that you disagree with and YOU are getting "offended" by it? It seems its exactly the situation you described, except now it affects you negatively so it bothers you. Seems hypocritical to me.

I don't necessarily agree with the policy change since it clearly goes against the majority, but its the minority that needs protection from the few in the majority that abuse their position. I would argue moreso in the military because regardless of the textbook answers, its not easy to deal with a supervisor who holds your career in their hands when they hold you to the fire over your religious beliefs (even if it rarely happens). Sure this incident was just at the Academy, but those people will eventually be officers and it could happen on AD.

However, I don't believe the policy changes anything. It doesn't restrict anything that occurs in "normal" units. Its just to satisfy the public (and yes, that's ridiculous) and is one of those things that is only referred back to when somebody does something outrageous. Then at least the policy is official and can be referenced for punishment.

[Guest hockeymv]

Well, as much as we're all over the AF about this, at least our service is confronting it. Not sure what the policy will exactly do yet, but we'll just have to wait and see. According to the WashPost, all branches seem to have this issue, but we're the most "evangelical" of the 4.

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9122491/

Tough to believe this guy went from AF to Navy life, though.

[Wing Sweep]

Originally posted by DC:

[Q1Checkride]

and now, the stateside MFR on ramandan observance

Ramadan.pdf

[brickhistory]

Remember the thread regarding the, I think, Orthodox Jew who didn't think he could pull missile duty because of the confined time (sts) with a woman?

Given this unbelievable, and I argue, unConstitutional order regarding the Muslim holiday as observed at State-side bases, then it would seem Big Blue should honor his beliefs as well.

And of those that sacrifice farm animals, draw pentagrams on the parade field, etc, etc, etc.

Why the fcuk does the military, ok, the Air Force, play these PC games?

[BQZip01]

Really, that makes complete sense? Have you ever seen a policy singling out any other religious group for special attention/consideration? I had to work Christmas and Easter, those are important to me. My kids school can't have a Nativity scene but Muslims get off work early and no PT for a month?

Granted this policy is far better than the Deid abortion, but double standards are always bullshit. And Brick, letter sent.

Yes, I have seen other groups singled out. The muslim faith is not always understood by the vast majority of Americans. Putting out an educational memo with suggestions is sufficient and helpful; it is still up to the commanders to do what needs to be done. I've seen similar e-mails about Hanukkah (sp?) and other more obscure faiths' holidays as well. It isn't a double standard and promotes communication instead of hiding your faith and then getting pissed when someone unknowingly steps on your beliefs.

[pawnman]

Yes, I have seen other groups singled out. The muslim faith is not always understood by the vast majority of Americans. Putting out an educational memo with suggestions is sufficient and helpful; it is still up to the commanders to do what needs to be done. I've seen similar e-mails about Hanukkah (sp?) and other more obscure faiths' holidays as well. It isn't a double standard and promotes communication instead of hiding your faith and then getting pissed when someone unknowingly steps on your beliefs.

No, no, no. While other religions may have a day set aside for them, or very short-term accomadations, or even letters explaining the religious observance to the rest of us...This is the first time I've been forced by a policy letter to participate in a religious celebration for a religion I'm not a part of.

If we issued a policy letter than said no one in the USAF could eat meat on Fridays during Lent, the leadership would be roasted for not separating church and state. But because Islam is the vogue, "oppressed" religion right now, it's fine to force everyone else to follow their beliefs.

Next up, burkhas for all the chickas in the squadron.

[tac airlifter]

Yes, I have seen other groups singled out. The muslim faith is not always understood by the vast majority of Americans. Putting out an educational memo with suggestions is sufficient and helpful; it is still up to the commanders to do what needs to be done. I've seen similar e-mails about Hanukkah (sp?) and other more obscure faiths' holidays as well. It isn't a double standard and promotes communication instead of hiding your faith and then getting pissed when someone unknowingly steps on your beliefs.

I think you're a sharp dude in other posts but you are wrong about this. I don't care whther or not their faith is "understood by the vast majority of Americans." That is irrelevant, and certainly not the job of the military to fix. Do you think there will be a GO letter advising Muslims to bring small gifts to the squadron in celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ during Christmas? Think I'm even allowed to say Merry Christmas on base? Last year my base said we should only say "happy holidays" when in uniform to avaoid the impression that the AF endorses any one particular faith. Now these guys get a month off PT and a special letter explaining the importance of this time of year? I work on Christian holidays but Commanders are "encouraged" to give these guys time off for their evening meal? A deployed aircrew should avoid eating in the daytime if a muslim on their crew can see? Dude, if you don't see the double standard I can't help you. Religion should not be an official discussion item period. Why the hell should the military be "promoting communication" about religion? Our job is to win wars, not social engineering. If someone unknowingly or knowingly steps on my faith I STFU and focus on the mission; how can I be offended when someone doesn't honor something they don't believe? This is a double standard and it's bullshit.

Edited August 15, 2009 by tac airlifter

[matmacwc]

Does this mean I don't have to sit alert on Christmas again?

[ram02]

Remember the thread regarding the, I think, Orthodox Jew who didn't think he could pull missile duty because of the confined time (sts) with a woman?

Said individual was actually Roman Catholic. https://www.becketfund.org/index.php/case/2.html

[GKinnear]

Its not freedom OF religion, its freedom FROM religion since most of the colonists were escaping persecution from the Church of England. Having this policy of special rules for Muslims sets a standard of Islam being the de-facto state sponsored religion. When I can only grant leave to so many dudes during Christmas, that means some will have to move a mission over their religious holiday. Here, every Muslim, whether he's observant or not, means that everyone else has been relegated to 2nd class status. Elevating one religion over another goes against the very freedom and equality that so many dudes fought and died for.

Sukkot - the Jewish Festival of Booths - is Oct 3 - 11th this year. This holiday is to remember the 40yrs in the wilderness the Jews spent getting to the promised land. The holiday is celebrated by spending the entire week in a temporary shelter, basically camping. Can I expect to see a policy letter letting Jewish personnel get extra breaks because the don't have prper crew rest of shower facilities? I'd be surprised to see one. Sounds like a double standard to me and worthy of an MEO investigation.

BTW, can we move this to its own thread. This is taking away from all the other shenanigans at the 'Deid.

Edited August 15, 2009 by GKinnear

[DC]

From what I can tell, most of the Deid TCNs I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with aren't even Muslim, anyway. And the only host nation bozos I ever really ran into were customs police.

I'm curious. What are the Army and Marine Corps policies for their personnel that are forward deployed in Afghanistan working closely with the Muslim population? I've heard of a lot of shenanigans that occur down range, as well. Though nothing like the Deid!

[Champ Kind]

^Good point.

We are always being told to kiss the asses of our gracious hosts, but we (as operators) rarely run into actual host nation personnel (as opposed to TCNs), as they are hardly on base here. Maybe the leadership that hobnobs with these folks should follow their own advice, since they appear to be the only ones that actually have regular interactions with them.