C-130 Hercules questions

[spectre56]

When I was stationed at LR I used to see USMC Pilots being trained at the FTU. I know the J-Model squadron (48 AS) actually has a Marine Capt who's a IP there. Dunno about Engineers, I would assume so.

Marine engineers do not go through LR...they start out as what the AF would call flying crew chiefs, then, as they get promoted, they move up to being an engineer. All that training is done at Cherry Point MCAS in North Carolina.

Also, USMC navs are either enlisted or warrant officers.

[HerkDerka]

Kind of unrelated, kind of related question here:

1. Do all 130 crew get trained at Little Rock, to include USN, USCG, USMC? Is this initial qual for these guys and they get follow-on training from their own services? Or do they train their own from scratch?

2. Is it true that the USMC uses enlisted personnel as Navs on their 130s?

Not being in the community, I've always wondered.

Not all 130 crew, but most. Almost all 130 guys (regardless of type) will spend time at LR. I don't know how much the MDP program changed the syllabus for AFSOC guys at LR, but it used to be that he gunship guys go off hurbie after phase one, the MC guys would leave after phase two, and the slicks and rescue would do all three phases.

You don't see any Navy at LR. The Navy only has a few 130 guys left they switched the TACAMO mission over to the E-6, but they do still have a very small number of 130s and I'm not sure what they use them for.

I think the coasties do all of their training in-house at their unit. There was a coastie IP at LR, probably the same one that murph and amcflyboy are talking about.

Marine loads train at LR. Pilots train at MCAS Cherry Point for T-models and LR for J-models.

HD

[TacAirCoug]

Coastie pilots go to IP school at the Rock as well.

[Carpetbagger]

The USN C-130's are part of "VR" squadrons, or "fleet replenishment" units. They are basically airland general purpose trash haulers. I don't think there are any on active duty anymore. All of the units I'm familiar with are USN Reserve and do detachments abroad to support the Navy. I believe they do all of their initial and upgrade training at Simuflite in Atlanta. They do not go through LR. The units fly the C-130T, which is a later model C-130H (most were built around 1990-1995).

[HerkDerka]

I think they are all Reserve. The few Navy herk drivers I've met were all Reservists.

HD

[Guest FCI]

I've got a Marine here in my class at the Rock that is going to T's and is doing phase 1 here before going back to his unit to complete his upgrade. He's a reservist though...so it may be different for active duty Marines.

[Guest Linda]

It is possible for AMC/PACAF/USAFE Slick Herk crew dawgs to transfer into the HC / MC world, but it is incredibly rare (I'd say on the verge of impossible) to go the other way around... unless you're a total schlub, and AFSOC wants to help sheppard you out of the command.

The program Combat Look from years ago is gone... but I've heard info and seen briefings that she might be back in a slightly different form. I'd keep a lookout for those opportunities if that's what you want to do. Put it on your T-ODP (for Os), and talk with your SQ/CC.

Cheers!

Linda

[Guest bravodelta79]

Between some UPT and Herk talk, this seems like a good thread to bring back from the dead of 4+ years. I know that Phase 1 and 2 are done at a normal UPT base and then Phase 3 is done with the Navy at Corpus.

For someone doing AFRC (or ANG for that matter) where the track is already known, are there more common UPT bases that Herk pilots are sent since they'll be leaving after Phase 2 for Corpus, therefore needing less "Phase 3 aircraft"?

[BADFNZ]

Between some UPT and Herk talk, this seems like a good thread to bring back from the dead of 4+ years. I know that Phase 1 and 2 are done at a normal UPT base and then Phase 3 is done with the Navy at Corpus.

For someone doing AFRC (or ANG for that matter) where the track is already known, are there more common UPT bases that Herk pilots are sent since they'll be leaving after Phase 2 for Corpus, therefore needing less "Phase 3 aircraft"?

It probably just depends on where your unit wants to send you. I know the 908th at Maxwell usually sends their studs to XL just because it's closest to Corpus. Other units may differ.

[Guest bravodelta79]

It probably just depends on where your unit wants to send you. I know the 908th at Maxwell usually sends their studs to XL just because it's closest to Corpus. Other units may differ.

I always understood that you go where the AF wants you and/or has an opening for you. Does your unit have some (or all) say in where you'll go for UPT?

Thanks for your answer.

[C130GuardBum]

I just put down first available on my dream sheet and was sent to XL. I also did the T-1 so no corpus for me.

[Dead Last]

I just put down first available on my dream sheet and was sent to XL. I also did the T-1 so no corpus for me.

A buddy of mine from the WYANG and one from an East Coast Guard unit were in my class at VN, and then both went C-12's in Corpus so yeah I think it's a slot available thing.

cheers

[Guest bravodelta79]

Interesting. So you went T-1 before C-130 in the Guard? Hmm. I didn't realize they even did that.

The dudes at the unit were talking about Corpus and never mentioned the T-1, so I assumed that's what I'd be doing. They never mentioned UPT location since that's always up in the air it seems.

Appreciate the information!

[Dead Last]

Interesting. So you went T-1 before C-130 in the Guard? Hmm. I didn't realize they even did that.

The dudes at the unit were talking about Corpus and never mentioned the T-1, so I assumed that's what I'd be doing. They never mentioned UPT location since that's always up in the air it seems.

Appreciate the information!

Sorry I re-read my post and need to clarify what I meant by VN. They did phase 1-2 aka tweets/t-6's then at track select time they went down to Corpus...

[Tunes3]

There were two Guard/Reserve Herk guys that went T1s in my class, the other 3 went to Corpus. It just depended on what was open to their unit at the time.

Personally I think Corpus better prepares you for the Herk world with regards to how they approach training for IFEs and just getting used to flying multi-engine prop planes.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Tunes3

[Guest Bender]

Flying the Herk is unique enough...Yo should go to Corpus if you have any choice.

Talk to your unit and let them kno o'd like a slot down there is it's available.

RTU is not that dificult. You'll srvive without havigpror experience, but why not get it if you can.

Plus, Corpus is going to give you some fantastic instrument triaing that I don' think you are gong to elsewhere; At least unitil AIS.

Angle for the Corpus slot.

BENDY

EDIT: I'm either drinking heavily OR my keyboard is not functioning correctly. You decide. ;)

[Guest bravodelta79]

Thanks, Bendy. Since they keep talking about Corpus and telling me how great the instrument training is, I'm guessing they aim to send their students there if at all possible. It makes 69x more sense to send someone that way rather than T-1's. (Hell, if they want to just send me to T-38's and then on to C-130 RTU, I'm cool with that too. Just kidding. No, I'm not.)

I still have quite awhile until this rolls around, but I'll certainly request the Corpus route. Also, from what I've read here and on the main BO pages, I'll probably be requesting the C-130 course at Dobbins ARB. I hear it's more likely to get in if your eventual goal matches up with them (C-130H2 and AFRC), which mine does. However, they usually seem to have small classes, so we'll see.

[tac airlifter]

Well, I know just about everyone will disagree with me but I honestly didn't think the instrument training in corpus was all that great compared to T-1s. I never flew the T-1 so I cannot say for sure, but from my experiences with T-1 grads they seemed to fly a wider variety of instrument approaches and were exposed to more unique approach types. For example, I never flew a high approach in corpus. Corpus focuses more on partial panel instrument operations, meaning they fail your compass card on your ADI but the needle itself still moves; and then you fly the approach using mental orientation and partial instrument input as opposed to having all raw data available (just one example). Here's the catch-- according to the NATOPS it's pretty much impossible for an electrical failure to occur that would actually place you in these types of situations. So the purpose here is not so much realistic training as it is a mental exercise in deriving your location based on non-standard instrumentation.

When all is said and done, I think it would have been more valuable for me to have spent time in T-1s flying numerous appraoches at numerous airfields (Corpus keeps you mostly at the same 6-8 airfields) than to have learned an ability to handle a malefunction that doesn't actually happen. Maybe I am wrong, maybe Corpus taught me things I didn't realize I knew about situational awareness and general pilotage skills. But I don't think so, I think in the end the training is less valuable than that recieved by my peers in T-1s.

There is also something to be said for switching to the FAR/AIM instead of staying engaged with the 11-217v1 as your primary reference as a student. The navy obviously doesn't use the 11-217 but it is all you will read in the AF (until later in your career when you are comfortable enough with the basics to start independantly expanding your professional reading material). Yes I know the 11-217 is derived from the FARs to an extent, but new students are more confused than they should be about the differences between the two and it's the fault of the system in my opinion. I think the AF would be much better served by having its own squadron at Corpus with only AF instructors using an AF sylabus with 217 and a -1 and AF type pubs. Thats my opinion. I will say Navy EP training is far and away better than the AF.. they actually shut down engines in flight and actually do all EPs and boldface in flight. That gave me personally a much higher degree of confidence in my abilities than any standup in T-37s.

On the whole I think there are some advantages to doing joint training this early in your career, but they are not apparent until later. Remember that initail 130 qual has very little instrument training in the course; the net result is guys coming into their ops squadron who have not seriously read the 217 since phase 2. That is a disservice to our comminuty.

Edited June 7, 2008 by tac airlifter

[polcat]

Reasons to not fly the herk: it's old but proven; it's a pilot's aircraft; you have an eng and nav; slicks do formation, airdrop, assaults, NVGs, low-levels; it's an easy plane to fly but a hard one to fly well and master.

Reasons to fly the herk: it's old but proven; it's a pilot's aircraft; you have an eng and nav; slicks do formation, airdrop, assaults, NVGs, low-levels; it's an easy plane to fly but a hard one to fly well and master.

Basically, all the things you love about the 130 are the things that you hate about it. You've gotta have thick skin being a 130 crewmember. There's a lot to know about this plane systems-wise. It's old, but it does the job. Nothing but round dials baby. Oh there's glass in the cockpit. 23 panes of it. Having props are great, but man, they're complicated mothers. It gets hot in that cockpit, especially in the desert with temps in the 40s (that's Celsius). Even the AC packs on the H1s and up aren't enough during the hottest days. The C-17 is gucci compared to the herk. But, all the fun stuff we do in the herk, takes time to upgrade to in the C-17. Off the bat we are NVG airland/airdrop, formation (vis and SKE, that means fly form without seeing each other), and assault qualled. We keep busy with the deployments, 4 months on, 4 off. C-17s are deploying more now than before (it's about time they get their butts our here to releive us a little).

I flew T-1s knowing that I wanted to fly herks. It was a gamble that paid off. T-1s don't drop Herks all too often. Go to Corpus to get a guaranteed herk slot.

I hope to stay in the herk community my entire career. Yes, I'm thinking about going to the J, but you won't appreciate the J without know what it's like flying an E-model during the middle of the day in the desert at 145,000 lbs.

Hope that helps.

[Guest bravodelta79]

Thanks for the write-up, polcar. Having had a bit of a choice between AFRC C-130 and ANG KC-135's, I went the Herk route for the reasons you posted in the love/hate sections. There's just so much to do!

I'm guessing after a hot mission in the sand, that's what the beer is for -- cooling off. Having had an indoor/office job since getting out of college six years ago, it will be a very welcome change.

Thanks again!

[polcat]

If only we did get beer. The non-alcohol doesn't count either. Of course, if you're down at the Deid, then you can get some suds.

[Guest bravodelta79]

Yeah, I guess I knew that the Deid had a two per day limit or something. I take it you were a bit 'closer'. Bummer.

Well, it'll make a beer and some Texas BBQ that much better when you're home!

[HercDude]

You've gotta have thick skin being a 130 crewmember.

Uh, no.

If you think that a debrief conducted at the Ops Desk filling out a 781 where the AC looks at you and says "you got anything for me?", to which you reply "Nope.", and to which he replies "OK good job stay in the books." (standar 130 debrief) requires thick skin . . . . you need to sit in on a real debrief.

One of my biggest problems with the -130 community as a whole was that there never was a debrief, and everyone had super thin skin. If you called someone out for sucking in flight or screwing up the mission plan all the sudden you're some hard charging asshole. And if you called out one of the E's God forbid, every Eng and/or Load thought you were some prick wanabe fighter guy.

And know that wasn't just my experience. Many a night in Salem was spent bitching about it, but no one ever thought it needed to change. Mediocrity was way to prevalant in the Herc community (at least in AMC the 4 years I was there) and no one gave a shit and that's not right.

But what the hell do I know?

[Guest Boom]

Uh, no.

If you think that a debrief conducted at the Ops Desk filling out a 781 where the AC looks at you and says "you got anything for me?", to which you reply "Nope.", and to which he replies "OK good job stay in the books." (standar 130 debrief) requires thick skin . . . . you need to sit in on a real debrief.

One of my biggest problems with the -130 community as a whole was that there never was a debrief, and everyone had super thin skin. If you called someone out for sucking in flight or screwing up the mission plan all the sudden you're some hard charging asshole. And if you called out one of the E's God forbid, every Eng and/or Load thought you were some prick wanabe fighter guy.

And know that wasn't just my experience. Many a night in Salem was spent bitching about it, but no one ever thought it needed to change. Mediocrity was way to prevalant in the Herc community (at least in AMC the 4 years I was there) and no one gave a shit and that's not right.

But what the hell do I know?

So did you do a "real" debrief when you were the AC?

[HercDude]

So did you do a "real" debrief when you were the AC?

The entire crew? . . . Nope - everyone is too think skinned!