C-130 Hercules questions

[Guest dtfl]

Well, I know just about everyone will disagree with me but I honestly didn't think the instrument training in corpus was all that great compared to T-1s. I never flew the T-1 so I cannot say for sure, but from my experiences with T-1 grads they seemed to fly a wider variety of instrument approaches and were exposed to more unique approach types. For example, I never flew a high approach in corpus. Corpus focuses more on partial panel instrument operations, meaning they fail your compass card on your ADI but the needle itself still moves; and then you fly the approach using mental orientation and partial instrument input as opposed to having all raw data available (just one example). Here's the catch-- according to the NATOPS it's pretty much impossible for an electrical failure to occur that would actually place you in these types of situations. So the purpose here is not so much realistic training as it is a mental exercise in deriving your location based on non-standard instrumentation.

When all is said and done, I think it would have been more valuable for me to have spent time in T-1s flying numerous appraoches at numerous airfields (Corpus keeps you mostly at the same 6-8 airfields) than to have learned an ability to handle a malefunction that doesn't actually happen. Maybe I am wrong, maybe Corpus taught me things I didn't realize I knew about situational awareness and general pilotage skills. But I don't think so, I think in the end the training is less valuable than that recieved by my peers in T-1s.

There is also something to be said for switching to the FAR/AIM instead of staying engaged with the 11-217v1 as your primary reference as a student. The navy obviously doesn't use the 11-217 but it is all you will read in the AF (until later in your career when you are comfortable enough with the basics to start independantly expanding your professional reading material). Yes I know the 11-217 is derived from the FARs to an extent, but new students are more confused than they should be about the differences between the two and it's the fault of the system in my opinion. I think the AF would be much better served by having its own squadron at Corpus with only AF instructors using an AF sylabus with 217 and a -1 and AF type pubs. Thats my opinion. I will say Navy EP training is far and away better than the AF.. they actually shut down engines in flight and actually do all EPs and boldface in flight. That gave me personally a much higher degree of confidence in my abilities than any standup in T-37s.

On the whole I think there are some advantages to doing joint training this early in your career, but they are not apparent until later. Remember that initail 130 qual has very little instrument training in the course; the net result is guys coming into their ops squadron who have not seriously read the 217 since phase 2. That is a disservice to our comminuty.

As an IP of 11 years, I can tell you that you are spot on about tng in T1s vs C12s/T44s. I have many conversations with colleagues in the -130 community and it is widely agreed that the product from T38s/T1s is superior to the product from Corpus. Nothing personal - and I am sure this will generate a hell of a lot of bitching...but that's just the experience of many AF C130 Ips/EPs in the community.

[disgruntledemployee]

I may be one of the few active duty Herk dudes that came out of T-1s. Listening to my fellow students at LR discuss their training, I concluded that Corpus is not a benefit. So, if any AFR/ANG folks out there have a choice, take the T-1 for phase 3. You stay in place for a year, and the training helps prepare you for AC duties and exposure to the AF way of doing ops. AD, you're taking a big change that a Herk comes to your drop.

I was surprised as to how little Corpus folks knew about how to operate an AF mission, from mission planning to TACC, overnight procedures, etc. Plus, in a T-1, you get a taste a real FMS; world-wide DAFIF or 200 way-points...you decide. On the other hand, none of my classmates struggled much to finish initial.

Out

[Guest bravodelta79]

Interesting talk, folks and greatly appreciated. From the several folks I've talk to about it, no one has ever mentioned going to T-1's for Phase III. Glad to hear that it's good training, besides being a jet and all. It seems odd that the USAF can't have some King Airs to do the training with at a base or two considering there are a boat load of C-130's in the inventory.

Interesting talk, folks and greatly appreciated. From the several folks I've talk to about it, no one has ever mentioned going to T-1's for Phase III. Glad to hear that it's good training, besides being a jet and all. It seems odd that the USAF can't have some King Airs to do the training with at a base or two considering there are a boat load of C-130's in the inventory.

[HerkDerka]

I cannot say for sure, but from my experiences with T-1 grads they seemed to fly a wider variety of instrument approaches and were exposed to more unique approach types.

You mean like VORs, TACANs, LOCs, ILSs, PARs, ASRs, and NDBs? I'm just not getting your point here. I agree that the AF has better continuity on high altitude approaches, but honestly how many high altitude approaches have you seen in the herk?

When all is said and done, I think it would have been more valuable for me to have spent time in T-1s flying numerous appraoches at numerous airfields (Corpus keeps you mostly at the same 6-8 airfields) than to have learned an ability to handle a malefunction that doesn't actually happen.

The point of the partial panel training was not specifically the emergency training. That was made clear to me during a review stage ride. An IP made me fly one NDB with both engines running and no ADI/HDG failures. After the approach, he said "I bet you were bored during that approach" and I realized he was right. Partial panel training forces you to focus on learing instrument procedures to the point that you can fly them with min equipment. IMHO it's a training tool and nothing else.

Now as far as the FAR/AIM vs. 11-217 arguement goes, I agree completely.

I have many conversations with colleagues in the -130 community and it is widely agreed that the product from T38s/T1s is superior to the product from Corpus. Nothing personal - and I am sure this will generate a hell of a lot of bitching...but that's just the experience of many AF C130 Ips/EPs in the community.

In the interest of getting a real discussion going on that topic, what factors do you think make the distinction?

I was surprised as to how little Corpus folks knew about how to operate an AF mission, from mission planning to TACC

What is this TACC you speak of?

Plus, in a T-1, you get a taste a real FMS

If you're talking about J-models, that makes sense. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

HD

Edited June 12, 2008 by HerkDerka

[Guest IGB]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but with the J's, how has the C-130 mission (or doing the mission) changed? I realize the smaller basic crew is a product of all the technology, so has all of the roles of the traditional E/H Herk become more "difficult" (in terms of low level map reading or any other duty that the Nav/Eng did)? How difficult a transistion has it been for previous E/H driver moving to the J? How about a previous strat/tanker guy going right into the J?

[FlyinGrunt]

With regards to the T-1 vs T-44 . . . yes, the T-44 is an old POS. Yes, most things are done old school. Yes, our GPS/FMS only works about 1/3 of the time.

However . . . perhaps due to my lack of breadth of experience, but I've never met an IP who says it's easier to go from new -> old than from old -> new, civilian or military. EVERY IP in the training world, T-6, T-37, T-44, T-38, T-1(not as much exp with the last 2) talks about how much easier it is to teach the fundamentals and "old school" methods and THEN transition to the fancy-shmancy GPS, FMS, FDI, etc etc. Perhaps that's just their nostalgia talking, but I'm inclined to agree.

Sure, most of the emergencies you practice in the T-44 will never happen, and they likely won't happen in the Herk either. Sure, you'll have a nav, eng, etc etc. And if you're in a J, H3, etc, you'll have all those modern avionics to help. But what if something does go wrong? What if you have a weak Nav or copilot who can't work the technology right, or who makes a lot of mistakes? That is where it seems that the ingrained knowledge of instrument procedures, dead reckoning nav, and solid SA will save you, and that's what Corpus teaches. You can know a shit-ton about FMS operation, but if it breaks/malfunctions/etc or your crew isn't strong, that tech know-how won't save you. The old-school methods will.

[disgruntledemployee]

What is this TACC you speak of?

HD

Alright dude, I get the sarcasm. Or maybe you truly have no idea. But get this, I had to babysit an "experienced" Herk AC on an iron swap because he had never flown anywhere other than the flagpole and the deployed flagpole. Sad, on many levels.

You can know a shit-ton about FMS operation, but if it breaks/malfunctions/etc or your crew isn't strong, that tech know-how won't save you. The old-school methods will.

My FMS point was not a dig on the 44, but merely a comparative point. But I digress. I LOVE your point on the "old-school" and I want everyone to listen good. In the old-school days, crews knew everything about their planes. Everything. And it wasn't just a bank of knowledge that was contained in a unit, but a culture that pushed crew-dogs to really know everything they can. I believe the Herk community does a fair job of trying to maintain that culture, but its slipping. It goes down the toilet with the J model. I flew an OIF mission with them once, and they said that they didn't have to know ops limits...the computer would color code discrepancies red, yellow, etc. and they crew ran the same color checklist. Another old-school item is looking out of the aircraft vs heads down button pushing.

Out

[slacker]

Alright dude, I get the sarcasm. Or maybe you truly have no idea. But get this, I had to babysit an "experienced" Herk AC on an iron swap because he had never flown anywhere other than the flagpole and the deployed flagpole. Sad, on many levels.

My FMS point was not a dig on the 44, but merely a comparative point. But I digress. I LOVE your point on the "old-school" and I want everyone to listen good. In the old-school days, crews knew everything about their planes. Everything. And it wasn't just a bank of knowledge that was contained in a unit, but a culture that pushed crew-dogs to really know everything they can. I believe the Herk community does a fair job of trying to maintain that culture, but its slipping. It goes down the toilet with the J model. I flew an OIF mission with them once, and they said that they didn't have to know ops limits...the computer would color code discrepancies red, yellow, etc. and they crew ran the same color checklist. Another old-school item is looking out of the aircraft vs heads down button pushing.

Out

Thank God it goes down the toilet with the J model. You learn the ops limits you need and you don't fill your head with useless herc trivia. Feel free to learn the construct of the 1553 data bus and desribe the path of electron from a BAU to the MC, but do it in private, don't bore the crew. If I cannot touch it, fix it, reset it, overspeed it from where I'm sitting but I know how it works, why in the hell would I need to memorize when the sphitzer valve opens or closes +or - 5? Don't get me wrong, the crews I fly with have been flying the J for longer than anyone (except the Brits). We know the plane- we just don't play gay engineer games about"where's the wooden roller or what part did Harley Davidson make or how many holes in the urinal." The checklist is king and that is what we teach. It has been revised probably 15 times since I started fly the J and you'd be hard pressed to find a situation that cannot be solved by the book. We do have some guys who couldn't break away and found nuggets of knowledge to fill the voids of their brains, but that is not the norm. Initially I had the same worries as you. I was fresh out of CIQ at LRF and could spout all forms of knowledge and draw most systems. I felt uncomfortable in the J. After a couple thousand hours, I got over it.

Can you tell me how many pounds of force it takes to pop the trunk of your car or how many lug nuts are on each tire and number of threads showing after properly torqued?

[Guest chaffman]

I may be one of the few active duty Herk dudes that came out of T-1s. Listening to my fellow students at LR discuss their training, I concluded that Corpus is not a benefit. So, if any AFR/ANG folks out there have a choice, take the T-1 for phase 3. You stay in place for a year, and the training helps prepare you for AC duties and exposure to the AF way of doing ops. AD, you're taking a big change that a Herk comes to your drop.

I was surprised as to how little Corpus folks knew about how to operate an AF mission, from mission planning to TACC, overnight procedures, etc. Plus, in a T-1, you get a taste a real FMS; world-wide DAFIF or 200 way-points...you decide. On the other hand, none of my classmates struggled much to finish initial.

Out

as a former E model FTU instructor I can tell you that "taste of a real FMS" is not really all that beneficial in the C-130(other than the J maybe), where I could teach SCNS to a new student in about an hour, being a very basic msn computer. The real difference is the turboprop training. The studs that stayed awake at Corpus have a huge leg up on understanding the almighty prop. Having flown both jets and props, I think props are harder to understand and to have a leg up on understanding them and the even more important concept of differential thrust and adverse yaw, pays bigtime dividends. How many times do T-1 guys NEED to use the rudder? I can tell you that I had to take more time to teach rudder usage to T-1 guys as compared to Corpus guys.

Corpus is turboprop 101, pure and simple. That is why it is designed and used mostly as the C-130 lead in training. While I agree the FMS and other techy advantages exist with the T-1, I think they pay little to no dividend. As for the mission planning aspect, I never found a student, T-1 or T-44 that could explain any of the concepts you list as T-1 benefits.

Edited June 13, 2008 by chaffman

[HerkDerka]

Alright dude, I get the sarcasm. Or maybe you truly have no idea.

Not everyone has a sense of humor I guess.

But get this, I had to babysit an "experienced" Herk AC on an iron swap because he had never flown anywhere other than the flagpole and the deployed flagpole. Sad, on many levels.

That's not anything new. The ops tempo since 2001 has completely changed the composition of experience in the herk. But that still has nothing to do with where the AC got his wings. Students don't graduate from T-1s ready to command an aircraft and run a TACC-tasked mission. It's all OJT.

HD

[disgruntledemployee]

Uncle. You win. I throw in the towel.

The Navy rules. They can teach flying better than we can.

Crap, I forgot the sarcasm squelch.

Out

[HerkDerka]

The Navy rules. They can teach flying better than we can.

I think you missed the entire point.

HD

[disgruntledemployee]

I think you missed the entire point.

HD

Crap, I forgot the sarcasm squelch.

Are we going to go back and forth on this "humor" thing?

Edited June 15, 2008 by disgruntledemployee

[Tunes3]

Its not about the Navy being better or worse with training. I hated the Navy way of doing things in many parts of my training. However, the turbo-prop training was invaluable training for the Herk and learning to flying instrument approaches in the weather with half of your instruments and only one engine was an excellent tool to help cement those essential piloting and navigational skills.

Oh, and the FMS is a none issue now. The Navy is upgrading all T-44s to Charlie models, all glass cockpit with an FMS like the T1.

[Guest Spectre514]

As an IP of 11 years, I can tell you that you are spot on about tng in T1s vs C12s/T44s. I have many conversations with colleagues in the -130 community and it is widely agreed that the product from T38s/T1s is superior to the product from Corpus. Nothing personal - and I am sure this will generate a hell of a lot of bitching...but that's just the experience of many AF C130 Ips/EPs in the community.

dtfl,

We obviously run in different circles. I've been teaching in the Herk about as long as you and I've never known another IP or EP who believed the product was better from the T-1 than the -44. I did know one person back in the mid-90s who believed the -38 was better. I will say that some think the student makes the difference not the aircraft/service he trained in. As for me, going back to 1996, I've seen several initial qual Q-3s from T-1 guys, but only one from a T-44 guy. But, the folks who tend to struggle the most on average in our formal school are the guys who flew T-34s then T-44s because they've never seen AF regs before Little Rock. Anyhow, I am glad to hear your side of the argument because it may mean the product from Corpus is on the decline.

[Guest bravodelta79]

What kind of rotations you guys seeing these days? (Note if you're Guard/RES/AD.)

I know tempos will be different by the time I make it there, but just curious on the trends...up, down? (sts)

[Guest KM]

What kind of rotations you guys seeing these days? (Note if you're Guard/RES/AD.)

I know tempos will be different by the time I make it there, but just curious on the trends...up, down? (sts)

Depends which base you are at, obviously, but it might have slowed a little, at least for copilots. A couple of years ago copilots were deploying as soon as they were out of the schoolhouse; now there are some guys who have been out for over a year and haven't deployed. Still 4 months gigs. (AD Little Rock)

[pedaler]

Any current herc drivers out there care to give me the ops tempo yall have experinced in the past couple years? What seems to be the trend? 4 on 4 off still? I'm about 44 days, 1 hour, 50 minutes from track select and T-44s are high on the wish list.

Thanks

[cragspider]

Well I can only speak from one base point of view. So here is my info/advice. It still is 4 on 4 off for Dyess, but that's cause there is only 2 squadrons here. I know that they have reduced the # of different models flying over there so they don't need as many crews out there. Some base's have been sent home completely but those are the ones that are getting the J's so they are sending all the old birds other places. Just from what I know talking to my buds that are at the Rock they still go for the 4 months but they are going out about once a year now. But if you like the idea of being on a great plane working with 4-5 other crew dogs flying around then its a great plane. I love the mission, wouldn't trade it for the world, being able to drop 64 dudes or a 42000 lb piece of equipment is pretty freaking cool.

[Dead Last]

Well I can only speak from one base point of view. So here is my info/advice. It still is 4 on 4 off for Dyess, but that's cause there is only 2 squadrons here. I know that they have reduced the # of different models flying over there so they don't need as many crews out there. Some base's have been sent home completely but those are the ones that are getting the J's so they are sending all the old birds other places. Just from what I know talking to my buds that are at the Rock they still go for the 4 months but they are going out about once a year now. But if you like the idea of being on a great plane working with 4-5 other crew dogs flying around then its a great plane. I love the mission, wouldn't trade it for the world, being able to drop 64 dudes or a 42000 lb piece of equipment is pretty freaking cool.

At LRF with 3 AMC squadrons worth of people, and no more E-Models in the AOR(Thanks Gen North) the rate had been slowing down before I left for the dark side. The J's were taking over the Deid and the rest of us bastards were up north. As a basic AC you were guaranteed to deploy every 6-8 Months, it just worked out that way, but on the positive side we were getting more TACC msns and some other fun stuff. Pedaler, since you're not even rated yet I have some Co-pilot buddies back at base x and could put you in touch with them and they could give you a heads up on what you are about to get yourself into.

Anyways gotta go set up my Blues...

cheers

[tac airlifter]

At LRF with 3 AMC squadrons worth of people, and no more E-Models in the AOR(Thanks Gen North) the rate had been slowing down before I left for the dark side. The J's were taking over the Deid and the rest of us bastards were up north. As a basic AC you were guaranteed to deploy every 6-8 Months, it just worked out that way, but on the positive side we were getting more TACC msns and some other fun stuff. Pedaler, since you're not even rated yet I have some Co-pilot buddies back at base x and could put you in touch with them and they could give you a heads up on what you are about to get yourself into.

Anyways gotta go set up my Blues...

cheers

There are four operational AMC squadrons here at LRF now, and the deployed ops tempo has definitly decreased. I have been home a solid year now, although thats had more to do with a new baby and IP school. Copilots are luckly to be deployed in their first year at the squadron, but on the flip side there are lots of decent missions to be had. Hurricane relief, SAAMs, JA/ATTs, OSTs... there is always some fun place to go TDY with good flying. I've been trying to go back to Iraq and just can't manage to get on the schedule. You'll enjoy the herc, there is a lot of operational flying and the people who do this are great. The bases are not as good as say, C-17 bases, but there are pros and cons to every community. I would definitly recommend the 130 to anyone looking for good operational experience on their first assignment.

[Guest Linda]

I don't speak for all the AFSOC bubbas, but I'll take the first stab:

- You're going to be busy. Period.

- If it's a 60 Day Rote, rejoice.

- If it's a 90 Day Rote, no worries.

- If it's something strange, non-sandbag, etc... enjoy.

Our semi-annual period just realigned from the Jan-June / Jul-Dec to Apr-Sep / Oct-Mar... makes a lot of sense, no? No more flying your nuts off over Christmas to get those last counters knocked-out.

I've flown Slicks and I've flown for the Dark Side. If you like doin' stuff... not necessarily bein' on the sexy mission... but DOIN' STUFF... and getting it DONE: Herks are for YOU.

Oh, and if you're considerin' Herks... you should look to go down to Corpus. Don't even take the chance. Go eat some seafood and get some Navy stink on you for a little.

My $0.02.

Linda

[Dead Last]

There are four operational AMC squadrons here at LRF now, and the deployed ops tempo has definitly decreased. I have been home a solid year now, although thats had more to do with a new baby and IP school. Copilots are luckly to be deployed in their first year at the squadron, but on the flip side there are lots of decent missions to be had. Hurricane relief, SAAMs, JA/ATTs, OSTs... there is always some fun place to go TDY with good flying. I've been trying to go back to Iraq and just can't manage to get on the schedule. You'll enjoy the herc, there is a lot of operational flying and the people who do this are great. The bases are not as good as say, C-17 bases, but there are pros and cons to every community. I would definitly recommend the 130 to anyone looking for good operational experience on their first assignment.

DUHH!!!

I completely forgot about the 41st...

I was thinking e/h's

cheers

[Guest viper24]

Some what of a thread jack from another topic...

I know you can get C130 out of T-1s, but can you get a C130J or MC130 and IF you can, how would one go about doing this? Would I talk to my flt/cc in the beginning of training (start academics next week) or what would be the best way to try to get one?

Thanks for any help

Edit: Ive already tracked T-1s

Edited October 15, 2008 by viper24

[Guest Dunce]

I know you can get C130 out of T-1s, but can you get a C130J or MC130 and IF you can, how would one go about doing this? Would I talk to my flt/cc in the beginning of training (start academics next week) or what would be the best way to try to get one?

Track T-44s?