C-130 Hercules questions

[Guest Cubdriver]

So, yes, the J-model is too slow to be way up high in congested airspace. I've no doubt they do it from time to time, but if there's other traffic, they'll either get descended or rerouted.

If nothing changes and you always fly black line, current systems are more than adequate. But that's not what we do. They really need to rethink the tac portion of ops and execution with a two-man concept.

We flightplan and fly at 320 KTAS so yes we are slower than the other traffic up there. I don't think it is a big deal though. I have never been bumped out of RVSM airspace in the J but if I was there isn't much difference in fuel flow between FL330 and FL270. The plane does fine in the upper 20s just below the RVSM airspace.

Look, this is a tactical airlift platform, not designed to go long distance at FL350 or whatever. Operationally, we've been using it like a legacy Herk except we can carry more... sometimes alot more.

As for the whole 2-man crew concept, I don't know anything about the SOF mission and can't comment. Maybe SOF needs a 3rd guy. But for a slick mission, 2 pilots works fine for everything. Legacy guys often say "you can't do that with only 2 people" but what they don't understand is that the CRM is much, much easier. Legacy guys spend alot of CRM talking about certain things like CARPs, threat avoidance, time control, or whatever and it is just right there in the J and requires little discussion.

As a long-time legacy guy I was skeptical too... but the more I fly the J the more I believe in it. It does take some planning and you have to know what you're doing (less tolerant of mediocrity than an E) but it is a very, very capable airplane and 2 pilots up front can do everything a legacy crew can do, with the possible exception of JPADS. That is going "under the glass" in a few years anyway, and could be done with 2 in a pinch.

[Guest D-Bo]

I haven't heard about this...when did that news come out?

Seems like I'm going to the 48th after my time flying Es is up. Keesler would be a good follow-on location (my kids live in LA with my ex). As much as I don't like LA-MS, it would be nice to be close to them while they are still growing up.

i was told by the functional expect it in about 2 years or less. Also a RI associate unit will spin up.

Edited May 3, 2009 by D-Bo

[Guest SOF HERK]

Look, this is a tactical airlift platform, not designed to go long distance at FL350 or whatever. Operationally, we've been using it like a legacy Herk except we can carry more... sometimes alot more.

The RAF use their C-130s as a strat airlifter at times. Trash haul is strat, pure & simple. Their standard run is Lyneham to Akrotiri - with the J capped in the high 20s, the time difference between the Klassic (as they call it, because their old ones are K models) and J is minimal (~20 mins), but fuel is tighter in the J, so when the weather is bad at Lyneham (hey, it's in the UK, the wx is always bad!), there can be a bit of a pinch there. That's all I'm saying.

As for the whole 2-man crew concept, I don't know anything about the SOF mission and can't comment. Maybe SOF needs a 3rd guy. But for a slick mission, 2 pilots works fine for everything. Legacy guys often say "you can't do that with only 2 people" but what they don't understand is that the CRM is much, much easier. Legacy guys spend alot of CRM talking about certain things like CARPs, threat avoidance, time control, or whatever and it is just right there in the J and requires little discussion.

I've never employed the J, but I have flown it. But what I'm telling you is the way we used to employ slicks and the way we employ them now are not quite night and day, but darn close, so to tell me the J excels at the "slick mission" isn't saying what it should say. That isn't a dig or a slam - it is what it is. SOF will get a nav (nee, CSO), but not an Eng.

As a long-time legacy guy I was skeptical too... but the more I fly the J the more I believe in it. It does take some planning and you have to know what you're doing (less tolerant of mediocrity than an E) but it is a very, very capable airplane and 2 pilots up front can do everything a legacy crew can do, with the possible exception of JPADS. That is going "under the glass" in a few years anyway, and could be done with 2 in a pinch.

I am not skeptical, I am cautiously optimistic - there is a huge difference. I love the power. I love the fact you can take off from places you can't land (legacy, as you know, is the other way around). I also think flying with the autopilot on in the pattern is gay.

Edited May 3, 2009 by SOF HERK

[189Herk]

Question...Vol 3 says :

5.7.2. Crewmembers will have seat belts fastened when occupying a duty position, unless crew duties

dictate otherwise.

5.7.3. All crewmembers will have seat belts fastened during takeoff and landing unless crew duties

dictate otherwise. Fasten shoulder harness unless crew duties dictate otherwise. Crewmembers performing

instructor or flight examiner duties or are in upgrade training to instructor or flight examiner

are exempt from seat belt requirements if not occupying a primary crew position; however, they will

have a seat available with an operable seat belt

My question is, do pilots have to wear their shoulder harnesses at all times? I read the second paragraph as saying they have to be on during takeoff and landing, but if you read the second sentence by itself you could apply it to all phases of flight. It's a poorly written rule that could be interpreted either way I guess, but what do you guys think? If they have to be on at all times then why do we reference it during the line-up and before landing checks?

[dmeg130]

That's why you don't read sentences by themselves.

Except this one.

Paragraph clearly refers to takeoff and landing. Although I've never once taken my shoulder harness off in flight and kept the seat belt fastened. But then I also don't wear my parachute or flak jacket or helmet, so whatever.

[slacker]

I lot of the airline guys I fly with take off their shoulder harnesses during flight, keeping the lap belt fastened.

[HerkDerka]

My question is, do pilots have to wear their shoulder harnesses at all times? I read the second paragraph as saying they have to be on during takeoff and landing, but if you read the second sentence by itself you could apply it to all phases of flight. It's a poorly written rule that could be interpreted either way I guess, but what do you guys think? If they have to be on at all times then why do we reference it during the line-up and before landing checks?

Here's my take:

Do pilots have to wear there shoulder harnesses at all times? No.

With that said, I always wore the shoulder harness. If you ask me, the intent of the reg is to allow FEs to undo their shoulder straps so they can lean forward and throw switches on the panels.

HD

[Spinner]

I always wear mine, except when burning holes on a Top Cover. If it got bumpy, I would throw it on.

[Murph]

I can't wait for reflective shoulder harnesses.

[Who?]

If you ask me, the intent of the reg is to allow FEs to undo their shoulder straps so they can lean forward and throw switches on the panels.

This was my interpretation too. If I'm not mistaken, the "crew duties" loophole was an addition to the rule for practicality WRT engineers. That would explain why many FEs were (or still are) in the habit of fastening the shoulder straps in with the lap belt, then lengthening them to the maximum and removing their arms from behind the straps. That way, they could obey the reg but still be ready to lunge forward to a switch.

Can't think of a reason for anyone else to have them off during takeoff/landing, but I almost always took them off during long legs unless it got rough (see avatar). Probably because they're much less effective when sitting sideways and are a bit too restrictive when handing paperwork back and forth to the FE/CP or when bending over to work the log (sts).

Edited June 24, 2009 by Who?

[bomber1]

Here's my take:

Do pilots have to wear there shoulder harnesses at all times? No.

With that said, I always wore the shoulder harness. If you ask me, the intent of the reg is to allow FEs to undo their shoulder straps so they can lean forward and throw switches on the panels.

HD

2

It is virtually impossible for the FE to complete his required checklist items and run aircraft systems while wearing their shoulder harness.

Bomber

[arg]

So, based on this thread, the same question would have three different answers. No wonder check rides are so fun.

I can't wait for reflective shoulder harnesses.

Remember, you said it first.

2

It is virtually impossible for the FE to complete his required checklist items and run aircraft systems while wearing their shoulder harness.

Bomber

Can't agree with that if your talking normal checklists and duties.

[drewpey]

I never understood why side-seater's wear them, because in the book it states the shoulder straps won't provide restraint or auto-lock if you are sitting sideways...but god have mercy on you if you get caught without it...

[bomber1]

Can't agree with that if your talking normal checklists and duties.

I'm mostly talking about emergency procedures but some normal checklist items are out of reach. I have a hard time reaching the fuel panel and oil cooler flaps. I need longer arms.

I do wear my shoulder harness during takeoff and landing but push them off as soon as possible. If we're talking about wearing them during all phases of flight, I wouldn't be able to perform my duties.

Bomber

[Who?]

I never understood why side-seater's wear them, because in the book it states the shoulder straps won't provide restraint or auto-lock if you are sitting sideways...but god have mercy on you if you get caught without it...

Can't speak for other aircraft or the Spec Ops 130s, but in slicks the phases of flight when navs (side-seaters) have to have on shoulder straps are the same as the ones when they have to turn their seat to face forward (takeoff and landing).

[drewpey]

Can't speak for other aircraft or the Spec Ops 130s, but in slicks the phases of flight when navs (side-seaters) have to have on shoulder straps are the same as the ones when they have to turn their seat to face forward (takeoff and landing).

yeah, I think my comment only applies to the planes that come at least dual-equipped...

[outbreak]

Can't speak for other aircraft or the Spec Ops 130s, but in slicks the phases of flight when navs (side-seaters) have to have on shoulder straps are the same as the ones when they have to turn their seat to face forward (takeoff and landing).

I've never turned my seat fully into the desk, even on Cat 1 legs. Usually it's turned to a 45 for those long over-water legs. But since the Nav is supposed to help clear below 10K, I was taught "wheels up, flaps up, [radar]stab up, nav up" so I unbuckle before 1000A and I sometimes forget to put the straps back on when I sit back down. Tac flights, obviously the nav's duties require us to be in the window, so no belts. Always have the full rig on before line ups are complete and before touch down.

[Toasty]

I've never turned my seat fully into the desk, even on Cat 1 legs. Usually it's turned to a 45 for those long over-water legs. But since the Nav is supposed to help clear below 10K, I was taught "wheels up, flaps up, [radar]stab up, nav up" so I unbuckle before 1000A and I sometimes forget to put the straps back on when I sit back down. Tac flights, obviously the nav's duties require us to be in the window, so no belts. Always have the full rig on before line ups are complete and before touch down.

Most common exception being the desert, where you're in the window until the last possible second, then counting down the altimeter while simultaneously strapping in the lap belt. The shoulder harness is an asspain to try and juggle while you're doing the countdown on NVG's and the harness is lost behind your seat somewhere. That being said, don't let an EN catch you. There's CONUS flying, and then there's real world.

[navonfire]

I never understood why side-seater's wear them, because in the book it states the shoulder straps won't provide restraint or auto-lock if you are sitting sideways...but god have mercy on you if you get caught without it...

Many (and by many I mean me and therefore assume everyone else wants to be just like me) navs actually never turn the seat. On some models the seat won't turn if there is armor on board so we just gets used to sitting sideways.

And if you have ever been stuck on a 5 hour pro ride where you do a lot of TnGs, you get tired of fastening and unfastening the shoulder straps. As for first hand experience, the lap-belt will save your lifewithout the shoulder harness.

[capt4fans]

I personally take the shoulder harnesses off for long periods of cruise (read over 1.5 hours) and make sure that as we even start to talk about the descent, they're on and ready to go.

I use the same rule both deployed and at home station, and have never been questioned on it. But then again, when you're on a checkride, when was the last time you cruised at altitude for more than 1.5?

Just my 2 cents worth as a Pilot

[Guest boredwith9to5]

I personally take the shoulder harnesses off for long periods of cruise (read over 1.5 hours) and make sure that as we even start to talk about the descent, they're on and ready to go.

I use the same rule both deployed and at home station, and have never been questioned on it. But then again, when you're on a checkride, when was the last time you cruised at altitude for more than 1.5?

Just my 2 cents worth as a Pilot

I would wear my shoulder harness with the plane parked on the tarmac if it meant I could fly.

[189Herk]

Imagine that...another ambiguous AF reg that could be interpreted either way.

[HerkDerka]

I was taught "wheels up, flaps up, [radar]stab up, nav up"

That checklist is incomplete...

GEAR - UP

FLAPS - UP

STAND - UP (NAV)

HEELS - UP (LOAD)

HD

[Guest FTUO]

Searched for a better thread to put this but couldn't find it... to make a long story short I'm in a class that uniquely wants a bunch of AFSOC (all T-1s). Personally I've wanted U-28s since the beginning of pilot training, but would be open to any manned AFSOC. We have one guy that wants an MC or AC, and two others that are also open to anything. Can we do anything to help ourselves, beyond the standard tell everyone (FLT/CC, IPs, etc). One of the career days had a couple U-28 guys come in and mention "we don't need the guys with golden hands, we want guys that want to be part of the squadron and mission." Can anyone expand on the special request process? We filled out a sheet that talked about requests for leave dates after grad, not sure if that was what was mentioned below. Has anyone recently seen one of these "Special Considerations" sheet?

Before you fill out your dream sheet you will be given a "Special Considerations" sheet to fill out that goes to your Flt/CC and eventually AFPC. For most people it consists planned vacation after UPT/marriages/family reunions that you want AFPC to know about when scheduling your follow-on training. It is also a medium to make special requests. One guy in my T-1 class put down a request for U-28s. Since that assignment is pretty much open to all who "Request" it (With Flt/CC help) that's what he got. I would recommend doing the same for C-130s.

[WeatherManC130]

Searched for a better thread to put this but couldn't find it... to make a long story short I'm in a class that uniquely wants a bunch of AFSOC (all T-1s). Personally I've wanted U-28s since the beginning of pilot training, but would be open to any manned AFSOC. We have one guy that wants an MC or AC, and two others that are also open to anything. Can we do anything to help ourselves, beyond the standard tell everyone (FLT/CC, IPs, etc). One of the career days had a couple U-28 guys come in and mention "we don't need the guys with golden hands, we want guys that want to be part of the squadron and mission." Can anyone expand on the special request process? We filled out a sheet that talked about requests for leave dates after grad, not sure if that was what was mentioned below. Has anyone recently seen one of these "Special Considerations" sheet?

I'm gunna go ahead and put my flame suit on and say that the dudes in your class who want any flavor of a C-130 should have gone to Corpus if they wanted to fly turboprops. I can understand if they put corpus first and did not get it but to want a herk or any variant out of a T-1 is shafting the Corpus studs who really wanted a C-130. End Rant...But if you and your friends are looking for advice, tell as many people as possible in your squadron that you want herks or U-28s. Talk to any IP who flew a C-130 and pick their brain for information. Best of luck on your assignment!

WxMan