Getting the shaft

[PET-Shot]

I feel like I am getting screwed by the Air Force. I am AFROTC and was awarded a navigator slot as a alternate in Novermber of 2004. 5 days later I was given a pilot slot. In January 05 I went to Brooks. On the 10th of this month, I was told I was DQd from pilot because of my eyes, but I was given a waiver for navigator. However, no navigator slots are available at this time. Because of this, and the timing of it all, I have been slated to be a missile/munitions maintenance officer, but I have not been given a base. They said that I may get a nav slot back if one becomes available prior to commissioning (14 May 05), but if not, I have to take the missile/munitions maintenance job. I feel like I was give a job from the bottom of the barrel - whatever was left over from the general catigorization at the end of last year. Going from what many consider to be the most prestegious jobs in the AF (pilot, nav) to the bottom is not sitting well with me.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Grandpa

[Scooter14]

I don't think it's right that you no longer have that nav slot. I would talk to the cadre and see what they can do. Don't take no for an answer, but be respectful and use good officership.

You should not be penalized for this. People wash out of UPT and get nav assignments. This is bullshit.

[Spartacus]

That does really suck man. I don't think that I would like that situation either. However, a couple of things to think about. When we all sign on the dotted line we understand (or at least should) that things like this could happen. We are going to be an Officer first and that is what is most important. That you will get to be an Officer in the greatest AF in the world is a priviledge. Now, I'm sure that doesn't make you feel any better but what has happened to you is the nature of the game. Give your job a chance (if you don't get Nav back) and do your best. If you hate it after four years then get out and do something different with your life.

The bright side though is that you get to serve your country and will be an Officer while you do it.

Again, I'm sorry that this has happened to you, and I know that it must hurt. Do your best though in whatever you are given!

[PET-Shot]

I have been handling it to the best of my ability, as an officer should. I keep getting the answers "just hang in there", or "we don't know". Being told to wait and see bothers me.

This is very disconserting. They are not very proactive in this situation.

Grandpa

[JS]

Don't forget the option to escalate the situation (after consulting your chain of command of course). If your local detachment commander doesn't seem to be doing enough for you, try taking it to the next level.

This is your career on the line here, and if you truly believe you are getting screwed (I don't know what the regs say with regards to how they can just swap assignments on you like that), I would definitely talk to someone with some silver or perhaps stars on their shoulders.

Obviously, you have to go about this very gingerly.

Good luck.

[ 29. March 2005, 14:53: Message edited by: JS ]

[zrooster99]

We are going to be an Officer first and that is what is most important.

Good attitude, but that doesn't mean that you should roll over and let the AF hose you...because it (the AF) will (hose you).

My advice is Fight it as long as you have avenues. When you run out of options, accept it and make the best of it (but see if you can get an Acft MX job...I'm biased though).

Something similar happened to my brother...Zoo grad...lost his ABM slot at the last minute due to a back door (sts) DQ.

Now he's a cop, had PRK and is trying for a Pilot slot. Never give up if this is what you want. It took me 5+ years on AD to get my pilot slot, and that made it all the sweeter.

I know I'm repeating myself when I say this, and there's a reason for that. Never give up if this is truely what you want.

[Opie]

Regarding the last post i put on here... I didn't have all the information, but thought that i did. As a result i said on the post that our cadre wasn't helping out Grandpa with his options, which was not correct. I was brash and stupid, and shouldn't have questioned something when i didn't have all the facts, and shouldn't have questioned my superiors actions even if i did.

I apologize for being an idiot, and I will hopefully never be so brash in the future.

[ 31. March 2005, 10:11: Message edited by: Opie ]

[Guest KillYourself]

It's called "The Needs of the Air Force".

[Guest SnakeT38]

People can talk out their A$$es all day about how you have to be an officer first, just be happy with what you get, yada, yada, yada. But, the fact remains that you DO have a voice in the matter, and if you want it bad enough and go through the right channels, things CAN happen. I have gotten a couple great assignments by working with my commanders, letting them know what I want, and doing self-research, which shows them just how much I want it. I know a lot of dudes who say they have never gotten their dream assignment, or their first pick, or whatever. I am not one of those guys, and I believe it's in large part because I go after what I want.

123abc [/QB]

This comment says it all.........I detect that

"just married" syndrome by several on this forum,

ie.......the mission of the AF is blah blah blah,

and the alltime greatest BS line "There is no such thing as a bad assigment in the AF". All I can say is BS............it's your career and ONLY you can make sure it almost goes the way you want..........If the AF hasn't "screwed" you over, just get in line, like the thousands before you have already done. It is this "assignment crap" that keeps ME PREACHING about the merits of the Guard and Reserve where you have SO MANY MORE options to do WHAT YOU WANT!

I know many on this forum are just starting out but you need to KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN!!!! There is lots of money floating around out there right now and we are heavily involved in 2 major AOR's, when tempo slows down, have a plan. In 1997 when we started the Associate T-38 program AND airlines were just starting to hire, we EASILY hired 80% of the T-38 IP's from Vance and Sheppard, there WAS NO QUESTION what they would do, only when..........these guys were all "heart of the envelope fighter pilots" about 10 years plus and coming from every fighter airframe we fly. Good luck..........glad I'm done with it!

[scoobs]

Why didn't you get PRK?Did you not know that your eyes were bad.

[zrooster99]

Why didn't you get PRK?Did you not know that your eyes were bad.

Scoobs, there are about a million reasons not to "get PRKed". Especially if you (like this guy) already had a rated position lined up.

PRK (and I'm a guy who had it expressly for the purpose of getting into UPT) is a last resort. If you have no other options, then go PRK. It's not a guarantee and there's a lot that can go wrong.

I was DQed for a very very minor condition resulting from PRK (which thankfully appears to have been cleared up), and was extremely lucky to hang on to my pilot slot. If there are any complications as a result of the surgery, you can kiss any chance of getting a pilot or nav slot goodbye.

One of the biggest problems with it is that having the surgery inspires the folks at Brooks to look at a lot of stuff regarding your vision that they would never otherwise look at.

My advice to anyone considering the surgery is to consider all options and get all the facts first.

That said, it is an option, and can get you where you want to go.

OK, stepping off my soap box.

[ 29. March 2005, 16:10: Message edited by: zrooster99 ]

[Guest ResqFlyer]

can you transfer detachments? have someone else hook you up? Pilot slots are "hard to come by" but surely there will be some knucklehead who can't make it because of ______ so the slot opens up and they take the next dude who can leave tomorrow. There are ALWAYS options. sometimes you have to take No for an answer on short term stuff...like "Hey Colonel, can we get drunk at lunch?" uh..NO! but for long term stuff, you have to find someone that will say YES and stick with them. I have played this game 3 times in my career...COP, SERE, PILOT and everytime it always started with a No! I think the key to military aviation is not so much dashing good looks and incredible ability (like me!) but more about patience and persistence. Good Luck!

[backseatdriver]

Originally posted by Res-q-Flyer:

bag your skull criminal

paws flat

hooves together

spine on the wall...

stay

*shudders*

Now I'm gonna have nightmares.

[Guest KoolKat]

sometimes you have to take No for an answer on short term stuff...like "Hey Colonel, can we get drunk at lunch?" uh..NO!

Hehe...ok.

Anyways...I won't speak to what your options are with a cadre that isn't willing to help. My senior year of ROTC, I got in the worst kind of trouble and they fought hard for me, hard. This situation says either you aren't someone worth fighting for or your cadre isn't cutting the mustard...I default easily to the latter.

If you do get stuck with missles, apply to the AD board, don't let your dreams slip. I had to go that route. You'll have to work hard and be a stand out airmen, but it is well shown to be possible.

If it happens, and you can't find any good application examples, send me a message and I'll hook you up. Try not to worry too much, you dreams aren't out of reach until you give up (or reach the age limit! ;) )

Stay Kool...

[ 29. March 2005, 19:13: Message edited by: KoolKat ]

[zrooster99]

(or reach the age limit! )

There's also a limit of 5 years service based either on your commission date or TAFMS date (transparent to you, I think). So, anyway, if you're not selected after 5 years on AD, you'll have to get a waiver for that too. My impression (purely opinion)is that most of the people selected on AD are coming up on their 5 years...

Also, I'm drunk, so if there are any type-os...I apologize.

[scoobs]

I didn't know that you could get vision waivers other then PRK from ROTC.Yes PRK can cause problems but to me it seems smarter and easier then wearing contacts or glasses.Also why are you dissing the space/missle field.If you go to airforceocs.com they have some great posts.It doesn't seem that bad and most people enjoy it.I know it must be hard to loose your flight slot but at least you get to serve.Plus you can always go to UPT after a few years in service.Hacker did it and now he flys fighters.Good luck

[Nightrider03]

I'm another story of losing a flight slot right before commisioning. Thankfully, my story has a happy ending as I just got picked up for the AD board.

I also had PRK, and you do have to weigh the risks vs. the possible rewards. For me, I was Nav waiverable, so I went for the chance to be in charge. I had some complications (long story PM if you want to hear it) but I did it. IF you chose PRK, understand you MUST wait 1 year from surgery date before they will evaluate you for a waiver (that's right PRK automatically DISQUALIFIED me from flying until my waiver was approved). Keep that in mind when you think about time deadlines for active duty boards.

First, fight as hard as you can BEFORE you commision, the game completely changes after you pin on those butter bars, and if you can get things fixed, earlier is better.

Failing that, make sure you get your medical stuff taken care of and go and be a sharp troop. Let your chain know your intentions to go for a UPT slot, but don't just sit there waiting for them to hand it to you, do your current job well. You don't have to be God's gifts to CGOs (just look at me) but don't piss off your commander. Be the troop people want to help out, and enjoy the highlights that every job in the AF has. (It might not be flying, but there is ALWAYS some positive in what you are doing in life).

Something to consider, does the career field you are going into have a service commitment? I don't know, but be careful for things such as AFIT that will keep you from cross-training.

Well, there is my slightly more then .02. If I've got anything in here wrong or outdated, I apologize. This is the way the rules were for me. Remember the AF has one constant, change.

Good luck and keep trying!

[PET-Shot]

Thanks for everyone's input. I am going to keep pushing things for the Nav slot for the next few weeks. As time to commissioning becomes short, I will start following up on other options.

Grandpa

[zrooster99]

I didn't know that you could get vision waivers other then PRK from ROTC.Yes PRK can cause problems but to me it seems smarter and easier then wearing contacts or glasses.

Sorry, just thought since I've been there and done that (and am currently embroiled in the fight to keep my slot specifically because of PRK), I might have some wisdom to impart. WTF was I thinking...

Scoobs is right, do no research and by no means should you carefully consider your decision...just go get your eyes cut and press on. :rolleyes:

[scoobs]

I thought it was only six months to apply after PRK?

[Guest TheBurt]

Grandpa, this kind of thing is not new! It has happened to a lot of us that are wearing pilot wings now. Be persistent, get what you want or find some other means of employment. I totally agree with what 123abc, SnakeT38, and res q flyer had to say. Despite what most people knew they had to spew when going through interview boards, scholarship boards etc. about being an officer yada yada etc etc, we joined to fly airplanes and a lot of us heard "No" a thousand times before that became a reality.

If it is your desire to fly for the military, you will find a way to make it happen. Remember your detachment is trying to produce numbers, they could give a sh*t about you and your goals in life. Don't drink the blue kool-aid. If you want to lead men as an "officer" join the Marines, Army.

Those that would tell you to be content with what the Air Force is giving you and be glad that you are an officer are probably not wearing wings or are just to new too know any better.

To those of you that think I am less of a pilot or officer for saying this, I will say a big kiss my a** in advance.

[Guest AV8NSP]

I know this won't be all you want to hear, my fellow Lumberjack, but bear with me...

As PAB said, don't take no for an answer. Fight for this as much as you can, but realize that when commissioning happens and, worst case scenario, you don't get the nav slot, don't stop the fight then. Just adjust fire. Aim for the AD board. The best way to do that is to kick a$$ at your tech school (DG or something like that...) and when you get to your first station let your new CC know straight up what your career goals are. If you have set a good track record of performance in your job (by not being a bitter person a la "I should be a nav" and "this job sucks--I never wanted this job") and kicking butt at your tech school, you will have proven your motivation and ability to succeed at something you want. If it takes a little while, don't fret. That whole 5 years TAFCS waiver is pretty much a rubber stamp affair. Don't stress if you find yourself up against that. Believe it or not, all that time you spend as a non-rated person while working for a rated position won't be wasted time. You'll have some serious experience and general big-picture USAF knowledge that your UNT buddies won't have.

Keep your head up, man. Remember that persistence pays off and everything in the AF is waiverable!! Trust me--if this weren't the truth, I wouldn't be where I am right now--old and newly rated!

I'll be back next month and will try to make it up to Flag and help you drown your sorrows....and keep you motivated!!

[Guest Fred]

>>I have been slated to be a missile/munitions maintenance officer,

If it does come down to that, try to get a different field at all costs. I think those guys are something like 200% overmanned right now, so the AF has a hard timoe keeping everyone gainfully employed. It becomes tough to stand out when you are a deputy to another 2nd Lt.

And, if you end up going to the 649 MUNS at Hill AFB, shoot yourself.

[Guest RuffRider101]

Long story short I was DQ'd from pilot for color vision at Brooks...which really sucks because that takes away a lot of the jobs I wanted to do. Since I was out of cycle, I ended up with #6 on my wishlist (even though I was at top of my class)...Munition & Missile MX. I tried researching it and nothing seems to come up. All I've learned is that you either manage people building bombs/storage of munitions or manage the MX of ICBMs (which means you can't wipe your a$$ without someone watching). I know that there is a lot of rated and rated wannabes out there...but does anyone have any good info on this AFSC? know anyone in this AFSC? what a typical day is like? anything!!! I'm commissioning in June and I don't know WTF I'm going to be doing. I'm glad that I'll have the distinct honor of being an USAF Officer, but AFPC kind of gave me the short stick on this one. Any help is appreciated.

[magnetfreezer]

Long story short I was DQ'd from pilot for color vision at Brooks...which really sucks because that takes away a lot of the jobs I wanted to do. Since I was out of cycle, I ended up with #6 on my wishlist (even though I was at top of my class)...Munition & Missile MX. I tried researching it and nothing seems to come up. All I've learned is that you either manage people building bombs/storage of munitions or manage the MX of ICBMs (which means you can't wipe your a$$ without someone watching). I know that there is a lot of rated and rated wannabes out there...but does anyone have any good info on this AFSC? know anyone in this AFSC? what a typical day is like? anything!!! I'm commissioning in June and I don't know WTF I'm going to be doing. I'm glad that I'll have the distinct honor of being an USAF Officer, but AFPC kind of gave me the short stick on this one. Any help is appreciated.

There should be plenty of open opportunities for promotion if you go to Minot...