Radio etiquette

[Bergman]

Originally posted by PAB:

"Tanker 24, extend downwind for inbound traffic, we'll call your base"

click "Tanker 24" click

DAMMIT! WTF, that dude is like 12 miles away, we can totally beat him. Holy **** it's a Coast Guard H-60! We're gonna be halfway to Cape Cod by the time this guy gets here.

This is a corollary to my Father Time pet peeve! Normally it's a C-152 or something doing 60 knots ground speed that gets vectored in front of us. Tower routinely calls us "Bat 22, slow to approach speed".."Roger"...2 minutes later "Bat 22, say approach speed"..."We're at 169 indicated, final flaps, on speed". With the gust increments, heavy weight, and an old wing design, the old -135 pretty much hauls ass on final.

So, we always end up overtaking the slower traffic and having to get vectored off the aproach or go-around. You'd think that tower would anticipate our final approach speeds better...but you'd be wrong.

[KickChick21]

Originally posted by PAB:

DAMMIT! WTF, that dude is like 12 miles away, we can totally beat him. Holy **** it's a Coast Guard H-60! We're gonna be halfway to Cape Cod by the time this guy gets here.

Chances are, the trainee's monitor is saying the same thing...unfortunately, we aren't supposed to overkey the trainee unless it's a flight safety issue. However, we can call them knuckleheads and cuss them for 15 minutes about how they just jacked up their whole sequence.

Originally posted by Bergman:

You'd think that tower would anticipate our final approach speeds better...but you'd be wrong.

Yes! Huge pet peeve of mine...tower controllers that play it so safe they delay everyone and make things harder on themselves. Final approach speeds for a/c are supposed to be tested on at least once a quarter, but clearly lots of controllers are brain-dumping after the tests.

So are the differences between controllers at different AF bases pretty noticable?

[Guest spar91]

"Tanker 24, extend downwind for inbound traffic, we'll call your base"

click "Tanker 24" click

DAMMIT! WTF, that dude is like 12 miles away, we can totally beat him. Holy **** it's a Coast Guard H-60! We're gonna be halfway to Cape Cod by the time this guy gets here.

AMEN.

add to this same idea - when we're holding short, ready for t/o, and we have to wait for someone on a 10 mi final...

i don't know about controller's time/distance minimums, but even a c17 can get airborne in 1 min *easy* if we're sitting #1, waiting for t/o...

and how about when we call ground at engine start and give a controlled t/o time for a formation, and when we're ready to block out we see an a/c being towed in our taxi path

[HerkDerka]

At AF bases at least, I'm used to the trainee controllers. My home station controllers will hold a formation of Herks short waiting (with a TOT) for a T-1 on a 15 mile final on a planned restricted low approach. I love having to rolex for the noobs.

HD

[ 26. May 2005, 08:58: Message edited by: HercDriver24 ]

[Bergman]

Originally posted by KickChick21:

So are the differences between controllers at different AF bases pretty noticable?

You can definitely tell when there are trainees at an AF tower (which seems to be most of them these days). I would say it's more noticeable at civilian fields. It's pretty easy to see who has an "A game" and who doesn't...there's usually a reason the FAA sends people to be the night shift controller at East Jesus Regional vs. day controller at DFW.

[KickChick21]

Originally posted by spar91:

i don't know about controller's time/distance minimums, but even a c17 can get airborne in 1 min *easy* if we're sitting #1, waiting for t/o...

Ten miles does seem a bit ridiculous; however, we have to ensure departure separation (5 miles for fast behind slow, 3 miles for slow behind fast) in case the a/c on final goes missed approach.

and how about when we call ground at engine start and give a controlled t/o time for a formation, and when we're ready to block out we see an a/c being towed in our taxi path

Controlled t/o time means just about nothing to me. It's not a priority over anything else...it's something we try to accommodate if we can. Calculated t/o time, on the other hand, is a fairly high priority over here, mostly because of the French controllers. Are your taxiways controlled? They're not here, therefore Ground has no control over tows, vehicles, etc. unless they go into the area close to the runway.

Originally posted by c17wannabe:

KickChick, slighlty off topic, but do you do PAR's for civilians across the pond?

I don't work PARs, RAPCON does...but I haven't seen a lot of civ a/c do them here. They have to request (and file, I believe) through BOPS to do an approach to the field, which is probably why we don't get many.

[ClearedHot]

I had a controller in Coco Beach wig out on me a few years back. I took a few new pilots down to Patrick and Cape Kennedy to get some approaches. On the first ILS into Patrick the controller gave me a vector that was going to put my student well inside the final approach fix before he ever intercepted the localizer, it was gross, (and it was not a windy day.

The student was brand new to the airplane so I asked for a new vector to get him credit for the approach. The controller responded with the same vector. I called back and explained the situation to him and he got mad. He basically told me if I didn't like his vector I could go somewhere else. I then asked for his initials and he responded that he did not have to give to them to me. I was ready to parachute down to RAPCON and kill the guy. I kept thinking what if this was in the weather.

I CNXed and went VFR to tower. While we did a few VFR patterns I asked the tower to figure out WTF was going on. After 15 minutes I picked up an IFR clearance to do an approach to the shuttle runway and when I switched freqs a different controller spoke up and said “ahh sir, the senior controller wants you to know the problem you had has been taken care of, would you like to follow up?” I was furious but I let it go.

Anyone else ever have a problem like this?

[Gravedigger]

It might be urban legend, but I've heard of a controller signing on and saying "attention all aircraft, previous controller no longer a factor."

[Toro]

Originally posted by c17wannabe:

It might be urban legend, but I've heard of a controller signing on and saying "attention all aircraft, previous controller no longer a factor."

I never got that on the radio, but I came close. On RTB to Lakenheath a little over a year ago arrival asked me if I could accept a PAR for controller training. I say sure and start flying the approach. As always, I fly exactly what they tell me, but I have the ILS dialed up to QC what's going on. The controller starts telling me I'm slightly above glide slope, then above glide slope and holding .... well above glide slope. I'm watching my ILS and can see that I'm actually below glide slope, but I'm visual with the ground so I continue following his directions. Finally I can't take it any more and tell him that I am actually well below glide slope and does he want me to continue. New voice comes on the radio and tells me to level off immediately - that new voice finished the PAR. On short final I will usually give feedback - I asked the controller if he wanted it. "No sir, that won't be necessary." I happened to be talking to the RAPCON NCOIC two days later and mentioned the event. He was the controller who took over and told me that the first guy got decertified on the spot for trying to run me into the ground.

[Skitzo]

I find it annoying when you call tower "Poison XX, 2 miles from the final approach fix, gear down"

And tower comes back "Poison XX check wheels down cleared to land"

Now I don't know if they heard me, the first time, or if they are just saying it out of habit, so now I have to transmit gear down again, kind of frustrating when your dealing with a crappy TACAN under the hood and on your nav check.

[ 26. May 2005, 18:41: Message edited by: ktulu34535 ]

[ClearedHot]

Are they saying it out of habit or because they are required to by regulation?

[Hacker]

If anyone here is a SOF, I suggest you spend some down time talking to the tower watch supervisor about exactly this subject.

From the conversations I've had with a couple different sups at Moody, it seems that tower controllers are *required* to say "check wheels down", regardless of if pilots have reported it or not.

[Guest Absolutlyfly]

tower controllers are *required* to say "check wheels down", regardless of if pilots have reported it or not.

I think that is true. Out here at Scott they tell you to do that even if the aircraft has fixed landing gear!

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Absolutlyfly:

I think that is true. Out here at Scott they tell you to do that even if the aircraft has fixed landing gear!

To which the obvious reply is, "Cessna 69CF, gear down and welded, cleared to land"

[KickChick21]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

Are they saying it out of habit or because they are required to by regulation?

We're not necessarily required to...the controllers are probably saying it out of habit or they're just lazy. From the ATC reg (FAAO 7110.65):

2-1-24. WHEELS DOWN CHECK

USA/USAF/USN

Remind aircraft to check wheels down on each approach unless the pilot has previously reported wheels down for that approach.

NOTE-

The intent is solely to remind the pilot to lower the wheels, not to place responsibility on the controller.

a. Tower shall issue the wheels down check at an appropriate place in the pattern.

PHRASEOLOGY-

CHECK WHEELS DOWN.

If it's affecting safety of flight (too much verbiage during critical phase of flight) I would definitely bring it up to a SOF or liaison who can discuss it with the tower sup or chief controller.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Heard from time to time at Andrews,

Smart@ss UH-1 guys: "Gear, down and welded..."

Earlier in the conversation regarding the UHF/VHF... Consistently recall having trouble with VHF only in one Main area in Europe. Go figure it was the FRENCH = UHF, enuff said... just a jab there...

Guess I should be stating in my lowest monotone voice for better radio edicate: "BASE/GEAR/DOWN!!!"

vs. Aaaaand I'm Base, copy on the gear, aaaaand I'm coming down... do not concur with this last one I heard.... I'm sure that gets some of your panties in a knot for the high tenure guys!

Had to pimp the Navy/Marine tower twice the other day (again) for clearance to land... Tower finally responds with - "Oh yeah, Evac ***** cleared to land" when we're at 200ft before TD...

This stuff keeps me awake at least.

[Gas Man]

Kickchick,

If having the tower ask if your wheels are down becomes a safety problem, you are having a bad day. The tower at this point is the least of your problems. In this case the problem becomes the stick actuator.

[Herk Mafia]

I was doing an approach into some field in Kansas that didnt have an approach control so we had KCC controlling us. They were obviously annoyed at having to give us vectors to the field. It was completely down to mins, had all my anti-ice on and the winds were right at limits. On top of that we had to shoot a LOC to a different r/w and circle to the active (this seriously isnt made up.) Basically not a good day. I ended up getting on the ground first try but my wing had a little trouble. As soon as they were starting the circle, the pilot got disoriented and jacked up the circle and stated they were going around and requested vectors around for the same approach. At that point the center controller started screaming "NO SIR, IF YOU WANTED ANOTHER APPROACH YOU SHOULD HAVE COORDINATED IT WITH ME BEFORE HAND." They filed a complaint after they got on the ground and the guy ended up getting canned.

[Gas Man]

As an AF aircraft you are required to report the gear down. It doesn't matter if it's LAX or not. They don't give a damn, but you still are required to do it.

[Techsan]

Originally posted by KIPP:

As an AF aircraft you are required to report the gear down. It doesn't matter if it's LAX or not. They don't give a damn, but you still are required to do it.

Kipp, Thanks for the 202 V3 lesson.

[busdriver]

ATC, ha. "Jolly XX cleared to land taxiway charlie, remain east of 18L cleared frequency change to ground."

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by ATC Rookie:

Very interesting topic.

Also, as Pilots we don’t know what is going on at the Tower or Rapcon. The fact that ATC says “Stand-by” doesn’t mean that you are being ignored. Pilots should go to any facility to get the real idea of what goes on there.

Would you be willing to give me a nickle for every hour I've spent in the tower?

[Toro]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Would you be willing to give me a nickle for every hour I've spent in the tower?

Same here. SOF twice in the last two weeks.

[Scooter14]

Originally posted by QNH 29.92/Space Invader/ATC Rookie/Whoever the hell you are:

Well, the only thing I have to say for now is that SOFs are savvy enough to be making such cmments about controllers who say "stand-by". Realize that SOFs are only used at ACC bases to help the sngle-seaters (reading checklists, checking wheels down, what not and micromanaging.) That doesn't happen in other commands, big airplanes usually have enough people to split the tasks in case of an EP. On the same note, big planes have enough radios in case a Skyhook is required.

Great, I'll tell our SOF at my AMC-gained ANG base that he can go home now. I'm sure our OG will be happy to hear that he doesn't need a SOF.

Oh, I'll tell the SOF at Offutt that he doesn't have to sit out on the ramp for 12 hours a day in his beat down shitty air conditioner Ford Explorer (like I did about 100 times) anymore either. Or maybe the RC-135 is only a single seat airplane. I guess I wouldn't know, I don't quite have the experience of the UPT student informing us of all these important ACC facts.

[ 04. June 2005, 12:55: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Flare]

Don't forget that we also don't have SOFs at UPT bases to help tweet student on his initial solo with all of 16.9 hours of military time. Obviously not an ACC base.....